Topic: [ANN][EAC] EarthCoin *SEEKING NEW EXCHANGES - HUGE VOLUMES BEING MISSED! - page 80. (Read 840344 times)

@testbitcoiner
Please give it a rest
We had our share of anger and personal comments in this thread but all of them still had a point, where willing to reply and discuss the issue and most important: listen to other views.
All i read from you is just a attack on others and an attempt to show the world how good/smart you are. If it is POS you want, go find your perfect coin. There are many to choice from.
Looks like the core team listened to your arguments, read up on the subject and decided against it. Btw, i'm happy for this bcoz im trying to sell EAC as a way to transfer money/value to people that have no idea about Crypto/IT/Global economy. Those people need stability & changing the base of this code to POS is the opposite.

Your nic seems to imply testing, so see it as an experiment, go your own way and let this community do there thing.
Time will tell who is right but for now... can we agree to disagree?

I can live with that. Actually I really like it. So what is the problem with that?

you can't give a simple yes or no... instead you scurry behind the next rock with your tail between your legs... how adult

you know what you answer translates to?

"I don't know shit and I'm fine with it, as long as I can be a submissive follower of the majority. I have no opinion besides theirs. please stop hitting me."

For any answer I would give, the arguments are already made. So what is the use of the question?

do you think 15 million more eac every day helps the coin to stay competitive?

simple question

In my opinion regarding PoS,

Both parties had their say and that is it.
And can I please ask to have further discussion of PoS in another thread? As it turns out the PoS discussion is now overruling EarthCoin as a topic and to me it seems that neither party has a benefit on that.

Thanks.

and again:

if you worry about money supply, it is strikingly dishonest to keep avoiding the fact that POW creates 400% inflation this year alone.

then focusing on POS as too much supply? ridiculous.

also: why 'secondary'. just stop POW and switch to POS completely. we DO NOT NEED MINERS. they are just parasites as long as they instantly sell.
and every miner will sell, cause of a 6 weeks slide that can only end in 1 sat.

if a miner tells you he does not sell, he is lying. cause power costs are so high, people have to pay the bills.
miners NEED to sell.

so unless you can explain why 400% inflation through continuing POW is good,
yet stopping POW, or severely reducing it to a fraction of what it is now, the 20% money supply increase through POS is suddenly bad

you can scream your ignorance as loud as you want, it changes nothing.

you can redefine economic terms to suit your needs at a moments notice, but you can not redefine it for all of humanity, which disagrees with you.

interest can be defined as [a stake in an involvement or undertaking, especially a financial one] (oxford English dictionary)
or [money regularly paid at a particular rate for the use of money lent] (oxford English dictionary)

since proof of STAKE uses the stake as a way to keep the network running, to proof that a transaction is valid, both definitions are true.

this is why it is called proof of stake.

you lend the network the money for 5 days, then you get interest for your lending to the network.
the network itself is the debtor. it hands out interest for stake it is allowed to use to keep itself running.

it is paid regularly.

the size if the stake defines the interest in both ways: your % of the total POS coin amount, and the money you regularly get as interest payment from the network, depending again on the % you own.


I have already explained this much simpler, but alas...

since you're so keen on splitting hairs, hoping I can't make an even bigger fool out of you as you have already done, here's another example why your redefining of commonly accepted terms is nonsense:

if you give your money to the bank and get 3%, it matters not if the bank actually uses the money for anything. you just get 3%
there is no word for the case in which the bank gives you 3% without touching your money. it is still called interest.

whatever. since you cannot read or are not intellectually capable enough to understand my post in green letters explaining savings and interest in relation to inflation, here it is again in "easy mode" speak:

savings, holding, hording, interest all keeps the money in one place.
inflation does the opposite to people. it takes money out of their pocket.

happy now? I don't understand why you keep challenging me on this stuff... can't you see how deep my understanding of this is?
the way I broke down Keynes, inflation, interest and savings, that's something most experts in the field could not do in so few lines...

you are so way out of your league here... seriously. just accept it. I know how you feel.. I tend to make people feel stupid in a lot of areas. but I mean well, even if I am highly confrontational.

+1

@ testbitcoiner, and then I'm done with you.

I was paid, that is true. Haven't spent a single bit of it, nor do I intend to while the price is so low. I imagine you've been paid for a job here and there too. I am not a yes man. I have been quite critical at times. Being positive and being a yes man are entirely different things.

That being said, you have displayed again the classic techniques of someone who simply wants attention by either ignoring the argument or changing it. Once again, you either failed to read or did not care what I stated.

Proof Of Stake is NOT INTEREST!

Interest is money paid on principle from repayment of loans. Proof of Stake is a secondary creation of currency.

And your bitterness towards miners makes no sense. Without miners, there is no network. Without a network, there is no Earthcoin.... Oh. I guess it does make sense.

And now I'm done with you. Get someone who knows how to debate to post your points from now on, if indeed you have any.

Hi everyone,
I now it's hard time for every earthcoin optimist... we're here from it's start, mining small. And now we decided to give all our savings for promotion of SatoshiGem - our unique multiplayer puzzle game. It's not a dice, ponzi or other boring stuff. If you like candy crush, bejewled or other diamond game - you will be addicted to SatoshiGem. So let me introduce one of the kind:

well testbitmoron then let me give you an honest -fuck you- for all the trouble you made.

earthcoin was made out of moral. you corrupted piece of dirt wont understand because you are flying above all human beeings here.

you must have (and I'm absolutely convinced) an ugly life, nowhere to go, noone listens to your opinion, that you keep on insulting everone here, without a reason, without hesitation. In real life, you are nothing.

You get, for the second and last time my ignore and my worst hopes of getting in trouble just because your karma is fucked up in a way I had never imagined.

goodbye testbitmoron

24Kilo is a miner. that's his perspective. he will always vote against a system he can not profit from.

biomech is employed by the devs, who have a hard time with criticism, and would not employ him if he was not a yes-man. he clearly has no idea about the areas he is discussing.

it does and should not matter how "awesome" someone is as a member of the community. it should matter if someone is right.

they are not providing any value besides speaking their mind without actual facts or arguments supporting their positions.

answer me this: how is it useful for the long term survival of eac, when we quadruple the eac supply this year, and still increase it dramatically next year.

eac is not alone. a coin needs a critical number of holders and users to survive.

what none of you seem to understand that survival means to outlast the comparable competition.

devaluing the coin now further is not helpful. it kills it.

price IS a factor in people's willingness to put up with the constant hickups of eac.

it is foolish to the extreme to keep outright dismissing price level as a non-factor when it is 99% of what drives the market.

all the happy feeling sunshine hold hands crap is for people who don't really invest in the coin or do not treat it in business terms.

everyone who is actually fond of accepting eac as a coin personally, or in a shop will react allergically to constant drops in price.

when even instant exchange from eac to BTC could yield a 20% loss after the merchant has accepted eac for goods, he will not longer be willing to accept eac at some point.

we are losing the wide range of holders and users that make the coin.

I can not understand why you let your sympathies towards certain people cloud your judgement so much.
look around. a miner and an employee discuss things they both have no stake in.

the miner can mine something else tomorrow. the employee gets paid.

what you should worry about is the absence of other people that support this current regime. there are none, except

devs,

happy feeling sunshine people who oppose profit on a moral level (steve) and are completely worthless to the coin on a business level, a miner who wants to keep mining eac, which is totally besides the point,

and a steady stream of people saying: ok this is enough, I'm out.

what is left are true believers. you can not trust the judgement of those either. they are always in high spirits, utter no criticism and glow with adoration for the amateurs in charge.
you are pretty close to becoming one of them.

whatever you may think of me, I hope you realize that I am smart enough to actually understand the issues and I'm here only for a public service to a coin, once dear to my heart.

there are no 2 sides here. either I am wrong or I am right.
either increasing the supply of eac 4 fold this year is good, or increasing supply by max 20% this year via interest is good.

make up your mind!

and all the bullshit about buggy code and POS being difficult is just a smokescreen for the fact that they, and I say it again: HAVE NO PROGRAMMER ON PAYROLL

and stop calling POS a new thing. it is NOT. and stop calling it problematic, when all the POS coins have a higher market cap than EAC and do much better than eac.

you increase supply anyway. the point is, do you want 400% of eac this year happening to a coin that is already at 10 sat? really?

long term survival is directly linked to price. di-re-ctly. the only people who do not worry about price are fanatics (true believers), miners who auto sell and the devs who are too insecure to accept failure to do necessary innovations.

everyone else, every merchant, every normal person, every crypto enthusiast, all those have to pay bills, and have 160 other coins to choose from.

yet all you are listening to is people you got to know and like. i.e. people who can stand posting here still.



how come in the real world currency value decline drove satoshi to build BTC and here it suddenly is immaterial?

you allow 400% inflation this year yet worry about 20% supply increase through interest, which idiotic no-nothings confuse with inflation and vehemently oppose it, while ignoring the gigantic 400% gorilla of POW inflation in the room

when we talk about a cryptocurrency, ok. There are a few flaws. First, having some of the coin doesn't mean, that the person accepts them, too. I had 50k EAC left but would I accept EAC for my work? Maybe, but I would have converted it instantly into another currency. Because I see better opportunities and let's face it. Even $ cash would be better. Second, maybe except of Bitcoin you can't buy things with cryptocurrencies. All their current value depends on the future. The speculation you can buy things in the future or it is a good store of value. Or a mean of transaction (e.g. cheap, over borders, darksend of Darkcoin). Third, you cannot know that Earthcoin is owned by relatively many individuals.
I would argue that Bitcoin is by far the most euqally distributed currency. Many individuals know of this coin, many big addresses are services with many individual holders. But the others?

But I don't really know. I always thought that my last 50k EAC aren't worth much so I easily could hold it. But I finally didn't

Just a sidenote here. Have a look at your posts in this thread. Then Have a look at the above. Do you see any similarities?

Don't get me wrong. It's good you question things, but it's quite obvious to me you just want to alter the value, which I'm fine with.

People, question the motives of all the posters. Both positive and negative - Some try to alter people to buy, some alter to sell. They wouldn't keep spending hours and hours writing in this thread over and over again if they wouldn't have some form of interest to alter the value of this coin.

Well you don't have to guess my motives - I want EAC to rise and get adopted.
 I'm still working on the explore the earth-project, I've gotten so much extra work shifts lately that I don't have enough energy to set things up. But don't worry people, the idea has matured in the meantime and I actually have some interesting ideas which just might help us get real business adobtion for EAC.

So let me run the numbers...

It would take 2 BTC... about $1200USD... to buy 20M EAC at today's price of 10... and I get say a Walking Liberty half-dollar(my preference and about $10 worth of Ag) each month for my $1200/20M EAC... so 12 months times 10 Walking Liberties is 12 half dollars worth $10 each... if my maths are correct... that is $120... and that is 10% return on my $1200 investment?

Where do I sign up?

After reviewing the facts, and listening to all sides of the argument, I have to conclude that I will throw in my vote as against changing to POS at this time. To me, the risks do not justify the benefits. I plainly do not see how changing to POS increases the LONG-TERM viability of Earthcoin as an elite Cryptocurrency. There are clearly some folks here smarter than me in economics, mining, etc, and I think the debate that has been had the past few days is indeed healthy and positive for the Earthcoin community. Hard fought debates about the future of the coin shows the passion underlying the revolutionary belief in the possibilities to change the world that Earthcoin represents.

Particularly impressed with the dialogue from BioMech & 24Kilo. Both are awesome members of the the community and are truly proving their value with the dissemination of valuable information to enlighten me and others.

TestBitCoiner had valid points as well and I can see his argument. I would say to ease up on the personal attacks, and focus on the argument, not the individual. Always makes me think one is defensive or knows they are arguing from a point of weakness when they start the personal attacks. POS and other innovations yet to be discovered, can still be pondered and decided upon going forward. This movement is evolving and as an 'open' forum anything can be discussed and decided upon in a civilized manner.

One thing I have been pondering doing myself is offering an EarthCoin shareholder rewards program. I am still brainstorming but any feedback y'all want to provide is certainly appreciated. What I am considering would be similar to a dividend paying stock, rewarding long-term Earthcoin investors by providing a monthly 'EarthSilver Dividend' based on the # of coins you hold in your personal wallet on a certain date/ time period.

"ATX Silver Announces EarthCoin Dividend Plan - Disbursing Precious Metals 'Dividends' On a Monthly Basis'

1 Unit of Silver 'Dividend' per 20 Million EarthCoins held - Decided Monthly on the 25th

Have holders send me a screen shot of the coins in their wallet, as well as the unique wallet address so I could double check the balance the day after the ex-dividend date(IE the 25th), when packaging up the dividends.

This would indeed incentivize both miners & investors to 'hold' their coins, and I feel basically solves the POS solution without having to open up the 'code' to exploits and weaknesses.

Plus, as word spreads about my revolutionary idea, people would flee from 'ponzi scheme' coins and recognize real value when they see it.

Owning a crpyto that pays you a monthly 'physical silver dividend' certainly offers a certain amount of downside protection. As the price of the crypto goes down, the # of 'silver dividends' you would obtain by purchasing more shares would increase, therefore effectively incentivizing people to BUY BUY BUY a crypto that has TRUE VALUE.

Of course starting off as I would be bootstrapping this by myself, the dividends would not be extravagant, but even $10-$20 worth of silver monthly for your 20-30 million Earthcoins would certainly be much more attractive than what 99% of what other coins offer IMO.

Alternatively, we could talk the DEV team/ remaining holders of the Premine/ Wealthy Earthcoin holders into offering this same program but in EarthCoins. IE take 50 million of the premine and make an announcement that you will pay out 5,000 EAC 'rewards dividends' based on the amount of shares individual owners can prove they own at a certain point in time. You would probably need a relatively high starting point to 'earn' the rewards dividends, maybe 5-10 million minimum EarthCoins to qualify for the initial 5,000 EAC Dividend, with 5,000 EAC additional for each additional 5-10 million Earthcoins held. Maybe a max of 25,000 EAC per user per month.

Just thoughts that I think people would get really excited about if announced. Maybe even create an announcement thread when finalized to blast this out to the whole ALT COIN community and recruit new blood to buy into this 'Shareholder friendly' initiative, that I personally feel is more beneficial a choice than what POS represents.

Ideas? Thoughts? Suggestions? Just brainstorming but I think I may be on to something.





 

*sigh* I shouldn't even address this, but I shall. The logical fallacy your trying to pull off is called a stawman argument, wherein you try to get your opponent to argue a position they never took. When done cleverly, it can derail and discredit an argument. Yours wasn't all that clever.

NEVER ONCE did I state that savings is equal to inflation. Nor did I argue that interest was inflation. Nor will I. What I stated, specifically, is that THIS mechanism, Proof of Stake is inflationary. This should be obvious, but apparently it isn't. So I shall elucidate.

In normal savings, done via a bank as opposed to simple hoarding, you deposit funds. The bank then uses those funds in investments, returning the funds and interest derived from the fees (interest) that they charged for the use of the funds. A partnership for investment with minimal effort on the part of the depositor.

Proof of Stake, by stark contrast, rewards the hoarder for doing NOTHING with their money, and does indeed create money without investment or work. Thus it is inflationary by definition.

Inflation is indeed intended to stop savings. Keynes thought (using the word loosely) that money should not ever be kept aside, that even the "tradtional" savings I listed above would slow or stop an economy. He dismissed Menger and Von Mises not on merit, but because they advised caution and prudence. Two things he was openly opposed to.

Again, there are two forms of inflation. One is inherent in any sort of commodity money, and that is the production of the asset. This form tends to be self correcting as the asset becomes rarer. This is the model that the crytpocurrency movement initially modeled, and most successful coins have followed. It is inflationary at the outset, and diminishes over time. This makes it deflationary in the long term, and because of the scarcity created,it becomes more valuable per unit. This is not true in a vacuum, of course, as the asset has to be USED.

Yes, it can be saved or hoarded (they aren't synonomous, but they are related). This is not in itself uneconomic from the point of view of an individual actor. If everyone hoards and no one spends, then the asset becomes devalued and useless. This never actually happens for very long, but it can happen when times are tough otherwise, because people want a hedge. As things improve or the stockpiles increase, people again start investing.

The second form of inflation, the pernicious one, is "printing money", or legal currency, thus diluting the asset or making it unattractive in the short term. See Gresham's Law.

Here's where interest rates come in. In a centrally managed system, they are manipulated, as you noted, to discourage saving and encourage malinvestment. This creates the boom/bust cycle. In a rational market, where risks are not absorbed by governments and central banks, interest tends to be high for risky investments. This makes the actors seeking loans think long and hard about repayment, and lowers the amount of malinvestment. There will always be idiots, but high interest rates discourage them. Artificially low interest rates, on the other hand, encourage investment in dubious prospects, and thus create bubbles. Sooner or later, bubbles pop. See 2008 as a good example. Or 1921. Or 1928. Or 1936. I could go on. Fiat currency is particularly vulnerable to this because of it's nature and because of fractional reserve banking, in which the debits are counted as assets to "create" money. Much like Proof of Stake.

As shown above, my grasp is far beyond basic. Both in economics and debate. Some references for you:

logical fallacies and the art of debate

Economics in one lesson

Human Action

We will accept all useful help.  Make it happen!

This a direct response to 'testbitcoiner'...

It seems that you are aiming a lot of your discussion at me... so let's clarify a few things...

I am a miner... that is what I do best... because I do not have the skills to code web-sites, marketplaces, coins and etc... I am learning as much as I can as fast as I can... but since I am an old guy that is a farmer... computers are a very steep learning curve... and crypto is another whole dimension. But one thing I have learned in life is that I do not need to know everything, just know the right people who do have the knowledge and skills I do not have. So in my crypto-currency journey I have been very fortunate to be invited and involved in some very skilled and talented teams because the one thing I bring with me is lots of hashpower. So when a piece of code or script needs to be stress tested... I can provide the blunt force needed to do so. I wish I knew how to code a coin, set-up a pool, develop an Android wallet, compile Linux mining and wallet software, etc and etc... but I can't... so by acknowledging my weaknesses and playing my strengths... I have been able to become a valuable contributor to the various coin and dev teams.

So you know... at the present time... I can mint about 1.5M EAC in 24hrs... of the millions of EAC that I have mined... I believe I have sold less then 100k... I am still holding most of my coins and what coins I have been selling have been going to atxSilver in exchange for silver. I also have bought about 1BTC of coins in the past 4 weeks as well. So while I am miner... I am not dumping EAC, or even selling that much EAC.

As for my dislike for POS, it has nothing to do with my ability or inability to mine the coins, it has to with the fact that the blockchains are not secure and can exploited. This affects every user. I have been involved with TAG since inception. TAG is in far worse shape than EAC, yes... the price is higher, but that is because TagBond, the company that launched TAG is buying up all the coins for use in their business, without the $500,000USD committed by Tagbond to support TAG by buying all the coins, TAG would be dead. And TAG is dead from a community stand point, the POS part of the code is so full of holes and exploits that miners are not willing to commit any amount of hash-rate to it. The difficulty is a false high because of the coin algo, the real network hash-rate is not much more than EAC at the moment. The team that I am part of has been involved with TAG at a coding level, testing and working on fixes for the coin. The code such a complete disaster, that dev team and Tagbond are seriously considering another hard-fork to completely remove the POS from the code, changing the coin to a pure POW, because end users are not willing to adopt the coin because of security issues. And this very exploit has cost our team around $1000USD in real money to honour coins mined and confirmed and then orphaned days after on the TAG pools we as a team run, both publicly and privately.

In practice, if a block can be orphaned at 500 or more confirms(which is over 2 days), sure the miner loses his coins, but that is not big issue, that means that every transaction included in that block is now null and void.

So if you pay for coffee with 100EAC today, the cafe hands you goods that of real value, the coffee, in exchange for crypto-coins after the transaction has been validated and confirmed by the blockchain. You walk away with a coffee and the cafe owner has 100EAC in his wallet. If the blockchain is compromised and the block that includes that transaction is orphaned, then those 100EAC are erased from the cafe owners wallet. So you got your coffee and the cafe owner has nothing. This is why I am opposed to POS, because it is far to easy to exploit this vulnerability.

And every POS coin has this vulnerability, as of yet there is no real fix. Everyone is keeping very quiet about it in hopes that a fix can be found before a massive attack is launched on POS coins. The reason TAG was attacked is because TAG was used by BCX to settle a disputed loan to Big Vern of Cryptsy. BCX used the exploit to mine a huge amount of TAG, send it to Crytpsy and exchanged it for BTC... then exploited the blockchain and Cryptsy suddenly found they had an empty TAG wallet with no recourse to get the BTC back.

I have no issues with the concept of POS, in fact, as a miner, it is a great idea. I mine a coin at launch, then turn my miners off, sell them, stop needing to pay the huge power bills and get coins for free... sounds like a plan I can live with!!!

I against POS because of the vulnerabilities and security issues, and until those are fixed, no POS coin is going to have a wide adoption. I hope there is a fix, because I like the idea that I can make 10% free coins on my millions of EAC for no cost at all. Heck, I can sell at 1 satoshi and still make a profit.

The greatest strength of EAC has been and always will be the strength of the code of the coin. Until there is stronger and better code available, then I am completely opposed to any changes to EAC coin code.

If there any changes to the coin code and EAC forks, EAC is likely to never recover.

LEAVE THE CODE ALONE!!!