Topic: [ANN][EAC] EarthCoin *SEEKING NEW EXCHANGES - HUGE VOLUMES BEING MISSED! - page 82. (Read 840344 times)

When I listed these arguments:
* It encourages hoarding instead of spending as a currency.  
* It causes inflation.  
* People have pointed us to coins like Tagcoin that used Proof of stake and became wrought with technical problems regarding high orphan rates to the point that merchants no longer wanted to accept them.

I meant this the above points are what has been said that has been pointed out to us.  I probably should have put them in quotes although I was not directly quoting but summarizing the points that have been brought up.

Let me make this 100% clear.  I, personally, am not for or against proof-of-stake because I am willing to admit that there are other people who have more experience with proof-of-stake than I do.  We are collecting feedback based on people's experiences along with continuing out current plans and still looking for more people to pitch in to make things happen faster.

1) miners cannot mine POS. miner can often afford asics. miners mine. they do not hold the coin. miners care little if eac is at 1 sat, as long as the difficulty is low enough to make it lucrative to mine eac.

2) because you might have already proposed POS in early January, made the same argument and got shut down.

and cause the devs promised a eac/usd only exchange. such an exchange, if many alts would be allowed, yet only eac could be exhanged for fiat, would create so much demand, POW would be no problem
plus, if you see things are going south, you'd keep your mouth shut and not point out bad news, in order to sell all your eac you have left. then you quietly reach out to the devs, explain your worries and wait.
then nothing happens and you post here, knowing you have nothing to lose since you're not in the eac game any more.

3) yes, yes and yes and a few more yes

4) no. rather:
there are no buyers with faith in the longevity of eac cause the devs  act clueless, emotional, unprofessional and have had a rather strained relationship with the truth on several occasions.
and because sellers are not selling to buy low. they sell cause they want to leave this mess and they do not get heard

look at my posts. a shining example of what happens to people who make suggestions.

5) good for you. you know my answer to that already.
i believe in eac, as long as there is an understanding of the misjudgments the "team" made in their POW model.
the "let's not touch the code" attitude runs contrary to all successful coins.
even doge had a VERY hard fork changing base currency mechanics by abandoning the random reward.

you only do not want to touch the code, if you do not have a competent coder on staff. which they don't. hiring one costs money. money that has been spent on incryptex


I Hope that this satisfies your questions.

I will not talk about trading strategies, because that has little to do with eac.
any great trader can make just as much money with a crap coin as he can with a good one. maybe even more.


in conclusion I'd want to lament the fact that ideology, "we are the good guys" "helping" "believe!!!" and so on seems to run rampant among the fanboys and devs.

what is ignored is psychology and public appearance.

changing something creates media attention. there is no bad press. any change might bring in traders, investors or new merchants via discussions about eac in other places.

there is a direct relation to high volume and healthy coins. bring in traders, and you bring in volume. and outside trader can not sell without buying first. here there is no short selling.

any speculator has to buy vast amounts first and then he is invested and will protect his stake.

the real world economy as bad as it is has orders of magnitude more wealth in trades than in real world assets. eac could survive and thrive even with few traders and all speculators. Bitcoin had done that its first years.

there is a severe lack of knowledge about economics and related fields in this team.

eac right now is its own worst enemy

Some good discussion taking place now.

PoS is hated by big miners because they wont be able to mine anymore. Honestly, I wouldn't mind solely PoS at this point, or at very least the PoW reward being reduced to 1/16th + marginal PoS. There is enough to hold and to trade. You can also have a coin cap with PoS as well, doesn't have to be indefinite.

BTW, what is wrong with holding? Doesn't everyone hold some if they can? Why do banks exist? CDs? Why do I have a savings account? Because we don't spend all our money when we earn it. Holding = faith in the crypto world. There is no reason to have a wallet with EAC over BTC. 0.

I am open to suggestions as are the rest of us.  I even stated in the very post you quoted by me that my original preference was to to be proof of stake because it seems more eco-friendly, but I am willing to concede that I may not have all the facts regarding POW vs POS.  I've stated that viewpoint publicly before.  Some people are arguing for proof-of-stake and some are arguing against.  Either way, we lose in the eyes of half of the people.  And yes, we intend for this to be a discussion, but you can't just shut us down for telling you that we have also been hearing other points of view to the contrary.

If this is to be a discussion, why are you just making ad hominem attacks?  And as far as being a dev, I've listed several times what I've done for Earthcoin.  My contributions are mostly web-based because that is my particular skill set.  I can design and code sites.  So I am speaking from my point of view and sharing with you the things that team has discussed and the pieces of input we have from all sides.

I am not unable to comprehend your explanation and my last post wasn't directly responding to your last post because you should notice that my post was not directed toward you.  It was a *general update* and response the last few pages of posts and a general update with the team.

Also, you mention sock puppet accounts.  Have you managed to look at the post and activity of a lot of the accounts posting?  Add that up with our accounts on earthcointalk, twitter, reddit, etc and maybe the post times, and it should become rather evident that it is not one or two guys spending 24 hours a day posting.

You can put up you arguments for proof of stake just as others can voice their arguments for proof of work, but don't get up set when we tell you that we are taking into consideration everyone's input.

And again, if you want things to happen a certain way or happen faster, help out and make it happen and at least be willing to accept that other people in this community might have differing views and experiences from yours.

a sockpuppet? And you wonder why no one takes you serious?

Ok, you've given a cogent, if heated, argument. You have yet to make one reason why ADDING A SECOND AND INCREASING level of inflation (yes, it is. Yes, I understand economics better than most. Yes, Keynes was an idiot at everything but gathering unwarranted power.) will increase adoption, but targeting merchants, attempting to get real world exchanges and stores, selling silver, and advertising WON'T.

First, let me dispense with YOUR fallacy. Proof of Stake is INHERENTLY inflationary. It adds coins as a secondary means to mining, which is in fact adding to the increase in the supply. Unlike mining, it expends no energy, no effort, and has no return OTHER than increasing a wallet.

Let me break it down a bit more. Inflation is not simply price increase, as idiots like Bernanke would have you believe. Inflation has ONE cause: Increase of the money supply. Bitcoin, and it's successors such as this one, are modeled on the real world paradigm of gold mining. Initially the supply is high, and decreases with time to a definite limit. There will come a time when there is no profitable way to mine gold on earth. It ain't there yet, but it will be. There will come a time when there are no more earthcoins to be mined. It's early in the game, and there is an oversupply currently. That can and should be addressed. We are discussing it. The idea has been bandied about several times on this thread and in other places of cutting the block reward sooner than the scheduled halving. I am in favor of this, as it chokes the supply and immediately causes the coins to become more scarce. Makes them less attractive to multipools as well, probably. Not sure on that, because their model is a bit odd to begin with.

Proof of Stake does not do this. Proof of Stake does encourage parking the coins, which does not put them in circulation but STILL increases the supply. Not only that, it does it indefinitely, which breaks the scarcity beyond repair. I want earthcoin to still be a viable currency down the line, not simply right this second. I cannot see how adding an inflationary component will do anything in the long term other than harm the coin. In the short term, yes, it gives it a shot in the arm. And much like the heroin addict, it will take more and more until it's ineffective and the addict is burnt out or dead.

Now, do you think you can tell me where and why I might be wrong without cussing my lineage, intellect, or understanding of economics? You can lambast my coding skills all you want. They are essentially nonexistent, and not my function on the team. But when it comes to economics, I was studying the Austrian school before Bitcoin was a concept, let alone earthcoin.

I can tell you that at this moment, all but two of the team are adamantly opposed to POS, but not to several other innovations, including cutting the block reward earlier or in a more graduated way. But all of us see mercantile adoption as crucial, regardless of technical tweaks.  

@testbitcoiner - I appreciate your input and thoughts, and I do now understand the POS system better now. Do you have any answers for what the Dev and 24Kilo have been saying as far as the inherent problems with POS networks and all the bugs/errors that they point to other coins who have had terrible problems with them? Do you have a solution that would be a viable fix to these issues they mentioned? Anything that makes the network vulnerable or weakens it sounds like a huge problem for me, especially after hearing a large miner's opinion on the issue. Inflation vs Deflation argument is irrelevant at this point. Let's be honest, we are not dealing with economists (Keynesian or Austrian), PHD's in Finance, or experts at trading markets for the most part in this forum.

I can't help but think everyone is somewhat a 'victim of the moment' with the responses I've seen on the forum lately. Why was there no clamoring for a switch to POS when Earthcoin was at 200 Satoshi and everyone was sitting on paper profits? I didn't hear constant attacks on the design of EAC and how 'Inflation' is destroying this crypto back then. I don't believe there is a 'magic switch' that will make the price skyrocket by pushing a button, making a press release, changing the code overnight, etc.

People are doing what people always do. We have seen the price of EAC get obliterated the past week and now everyone and their mom is coming up with 'perfectly clear' reasons why this happened. It is because we are not POS, it is because of multi-pools, Lack of Dev participation/action, etc.

The true reason, is so much more simple, and takes the least amount of assumption.

THERE ARE MORE SELLERS THAN BUYERS OF EARTHCOIN.

Maybe 'John' the original Dev is finishing off unloading his holdings. Maybe Norb is, Maybe WES, maybe some other unknown entity that accumulated 100 million coins early on and is now capitulating.

What reason would we come up with if someone with 100K to speculate with pushes EarthCoin back up to 200 Satoshi? We would then point to all kinds of reasons and say, 'look, it's perfectly clear now, EarthCoin went up because you can buy silver with EAC, the Dev team is active and getting organized, the Android wallet announcement, etc.'

Greed has certainly been a huge driver of the crypto world in general and once someone gets a taste of quick money, they start to become monsters for more. The good news is IMO that nearly 100% of the super-greedy people have left EarthCoin, and most likely sold all of their shares at a significant loss. For every seller, there is also a buyer.

So answer me this - Knowing all the facts that we know, which one is the wiser person, the one selling at 10 Satoshi, or the one buying at 10 Satoshi? The seller is guaranteed to be selling at a loss, capitulating, giving up, throwing in the towel, laying on the linoleum with a bottle of half-empty scotch. The buyer, however, what is he thinking? How could he possibly buy EarthCoin when everyone has written it off as dead and the 'pump-n-dump' crowd has moved on to the next roulette wheel?

So the people selling all this quantity of shares on the market, who likely bought at 100+ satoshi prices, and is now selling it all for 5-10% of his original investment. That is a very clear example of 'buying high, and selling low'. Is that what you would like to do also?

The People buying here on the other hand, well they are buying at 10 Satoshi, and I wonder where/when they will decide to sell? So they are buying LOW, AND Selling _____???

Seems very clear to me the answer to my question, as to which person is a better investor/speculator/profiteer at the current time.

Is the entity buying right now the truly greedy one? If EAC just goes back to 50 Satoshi he will make 5x his invesment. (EAC was at 25 satoshi just a few days ago) The risk to reward parameters of EarthCoin have never looked more promising from an investment perspective. from 10 satoshi to 1 is relatively VERY CLOSE. If indeed EarthCoin survives this bear attack, which I believe it will, you have to think it has a 50% probability of returning to a 100-200 satoshi price within the next 3-6 Months. So you are risking 10 to gain 100-200. You know what the downside is, that is very clear. What is the upside however?

This now represents a classic example of an Asymmetrical bet. Risk 10 to get back in return 200. Sure you could lose your 10 if all is indeed lost. But imagine if this is indeed a temporary panic, and EarthCoin rises from the ashes behind an improved Dev team and community backing? How will it feel to turn $1,000 into $20,000? What percent chance would you need of success to bet $10 for the chance to win $200? Would you do it for a 10% Chance? Do you think EarthCoin has a 10% chance of Survival? People play the lottery for much more terrible odds everyday.

Those who actually Buy Low & Sell High are always in the minority. They end up being very wealthy, and directly at the expense of those who do the opposite, and Buy High & Sell Low. It is indeed very hard to convince yourself to Buy at this price, and that is exactly why you should. The average person is panicking out of his mind and does not have the courage to buy more shares. He in fact is likely selling shares at tremendous losses.

I intend to be one of the few 'very wealthy'. Are you selling your Earthcoins now, or are you buying? The easiest choice is very rarely the correct one.

it speaks volumes that you completely ignore the POS coins I continue to name as a good example, pick TAG because some guy in the thread says he knows they had problems, and then TAG is still doing so much better than EAC is doing.

Tag has 4 times the market cap and actually some price not in the one digit satoshi range.
TAG is on 41 in market cap. eac on 68.
BC , pure POS is on 18
peercoin, a success story if there ever was one last year, is at 3.

why do the devs not reply to these arguments, but rather cherry pick some claim by some guy who has been a nonstop all day fanboy of EAC?
cause that guy is a sock puppet of the devs. he blurts out what they think, so zark can "reply", quote him as a "more knowledgable guy" and dismiss the actal examples.

that is called "creating a straw man argument". they have no response to all the successful POS coins, so they choose one example that seems bad enough to support their argument.

yet even that straw man is doing 4 times as well as eac.
---------------------

1) it causes inflation.
nope it doesn't. it STOPS INFLATION.
hours ago I explained why. zark seems unable to eithe comprehend or respond to my explanation.
why is peercoin a shining example of success if "it causes inflation"?

2) it encourages hording.
nope, it does not. again, I have repeatedly explained why. it encourages NOT IMMEDIATELY SELLING IT OR PARKING IT ON AN EXCHANGE.
unless you EMPTY your wallet for every purchase, all your money you have left still collects interest.
and it is let's say 25% a year. who'd be discouraged from buying something with eac cause he could lose a few satoshi interest?
such errors of reasoning are just staggering.

3) none of my arguments is even acknowledged.
POS is bad. that's the extent of your reasoning. "many more experienced people" when it is just one guy telling an anecdote.


the problem eac has is not that people aren't spending it. the problem is that they rather sell it immediately cause they know it is not worth holding.
you use keynsian economics and the idiotic fallacy of spending is the savior for everything and saving is the devil. Hayek is turning in his grave right now and Keyns is having a cocktail party with the devil in your honor.


what you are saying is "I treat EAC like fiat, and make people SPEND IT by forcing inflation on them via a steep increase in currency supply.
BUT IN THIS MODEL SPENDING MEANS SELLING EAC FOR BTC, YOU POOR FOOL.

spending is spending. your economic model does not force people on merchants. it forces them on cryptsy



this creates a vicious cycle that you cannot break with using the same "all is fine! go to your homes! nothing to see here" message.
it worked in January when people still believed EAC had been actively developed. but it is not.

and for the love of god, stop saying things like "the team" and "discussed". if you'd up for discussions you'd have actual arguments and not straw men.

if you are not able to understand how POS works, and every post you and your sock puppets do proves you don't, then you should not dev for a freaking cryptocurrency.

Jesus Christ. peercoin is such a success and you are seriously claiming POS would not work for eac???

Compare that to BitShares , in 1 minute u will know why DEM fail.

no. today it is the lowest of any future point in time.

it adds up every day. just because in 5 months it adds less than it adds tomorrow, does not mean inflation then is not already well over 250%

I know this is tricky... but fallacies like this drove the current eac design...

and fallacies like this prevent people seeing the fundamental problem alts face.

eac can not increase its rate of adoption enough to compensate POW inflation.

once it sinks low enough, acceptance will diminish, not increase.

the devs assume for some reason that acceptance of the coin will increase at the same rate the wallets are printing earthcoins.

POS would give eac a break and allow the rate of adoption catch up to the eac supply.

but since the devs seem very resistant to  suggestions even, let alone criticism, however valid, nothing will happen.

cause if nothing happens, 'earthcoin' (the guy) has never to admit to himself that he was wrong.

he'd rather lose all his money, have his premine become worthless than admit that he has misjudged something and the suggestions of some arrogant and condescending ass in the thread (hint: me) might save his bacon from oblivion.

After the recent dev Q&A, there was some concern that we wold be moving away from the charitable and humanitarian as of Earthcoin.  Even at the time of that Q&A, there was not 100% agreement on this issue, but I want to say that this is not longer the case.

The team has been trying to work as fast as possible to ensure both the short term survival and long term success of Earthcoin.  We are still working on *the big ideas*, and at first, there was concern by some of the devs that charities would not even benefit from earthcoin unless some work was done to make it through the short term.  However, more people have come out to help us develop and organize.

This is where you come in.  Yes, we want to continue have our positive, charitable and humanitarian soul.  We simply need more people helping us in our goals so we can focus on technical, cultural, short term and long term goals.   Please send me a private message if you want to get involved.

Also, for people who think we aren't doing anything or aren't working fast enough.  I can assure you that we are working as fast as we can while factoring in our normal everyday lives.  Most of us working on this project have full time jobs and other personal obligations in our lives.  If there was someone or a team being paid to work on this full time, then they would still have to pay their monthly bills and groceries at the moment in fiat and everyone would then be complaining that the EAC was being sold to fund the full time developers.

You all know that we have bounties to give, so if you want us to work faster, send developers our way that are willing to help us for a bounty. Xploited (who recently made waves by introducing Digishield and implemented it for Doge as a better alternative to Kimoto Gravity Well)just finished our android wallet along with EarthcoinJ (the earthcoin java implementation).  He can tell you that our wallet took far longer than the typical wallet because integrating our transsaction messaging system (an android wallet FIRST) took much longer than expected because it caused serialiazation and protobuf errors.  This delayed launch by about 2 months.  Now, you'll see that we have a nice themed wallet with exclusive features and an  extra "Earthcoin" tab that connects you directly to our network of main sites.

So now we have Sproket (who developed our Reddit tipbot) extending our wallet to other platforms and Linki (aka Earthsh*t on the earthcointalk forums) developing our next version of the wallet in John's place.  This is NOT an overnight process.  We are also debating what the next parameters of the coin should be.  Some are clamoring for Proof of Stake.  I even thought at first that this might be a good idea since I understood it as a more eco-friendly way to mine.  However, many more experience people chimed in and pointed out the other problems that other coins had with Proof of Stake.  It encourages hoarding instead of spending as a currency.  It causes inflation.  People have pointed us to coins like Tagcoin that used Proof of stake and became wrought with technical problems regarding high orphan rates to the point that merchants no longer wanted to accept them.

As for the rest.  YES, we want innovation.  YES we are open to ideas.  I have posted several times in this thread and others that we have a bounty pile for people who can help us implement new features.  If you are a developer or can send developers our way, then stop making demands and complaining and help out.  It was literally just under 2 weeks ago that we let the world know that our main dev had left, and somehow, everyone expects that our wishlist of technical upgrades would have all been implemented in the last two weeks with no one working full time.  We love the devs that have stepped up to the plate, but they are only people working in their spare time.  Help out if you can by at least helping us find talent that is experienced and willing to help.

But I agree with Steve and many others here.  Earthcoin is not here to be the one with the latest gimmicky feature. For example, we decided as a team that to implement ASIC resistance was antithetical to our missions statement.  ASICs provide more security and less power consumption.  This should be something we embrace.  Proof of Stake seems more power efficient but less useful as a currency and less stable as a network.

We believe that most of our strength will come from cultural innovation.  User friendliness and partnerships to try to put us more in the public eye.  If you are complaining thinking the devs are not working fast enough, then YOU should do it faster.  This is not me being facetious or theoretical.  I literally mean, you should go out and create these partnerships.  You can choose to work with us so you can work with our growing team, or go out and work independently and form your own teams.

If you feel like maybe our issue is that we are not communicating often enough, maybe help us disseminate information. This is one of the reasons Biomech recently joined us, but since the frequency is not often enough, maybe we do need more hands on deck.

Help us our.  Retweet our tweets.  Post on reddit when you spot something we haven't shared yet.  People asked us to develop a reddit tip bot, but how many of you are actually using it?  You asked us for mechandise and now we have several merch vendors providing metal earthcoin pins, embroidered hats, shirts, cellphone covers and more.   You asked us to get featured on the Mad Bitcoins youtube series and we were.  You asked for Kimoto's Gravity Well without even checking to see that are current 1-block difficulty retargeting was a superior system against fending off multipools.  You said to come up with an EAC exclusive store and Centurion gave you http://earthazaar.com which backs EAC with REAL SILVER (better than fiat currency).  You said EAC should spend less time with charity and humanitarian, charitable, positive causes and focus more on copying features from other coins.  

Bottom line.  We want to maintain the positivity and "force for good" nature of earthcoin.  Yes, we will make sure to change and evolve to make sure EAC doesn't look outdated and remains fast and secure, but whereas bitcoin is plagued with a Silk Road history and can come of as geek money, we think Earthcoin can  be easy to grasp and approachable.  Grandma may not understand Dogecoin, but she can grasp Earthcoin.   Helping us with content and educational material would be great at this point.  Marketing as well.

Stop complaining and start helping!  PM me for details.

In a way this drop in price is in the design of Earthcoin. Look at the block rewards, it's still increasing every day. In a few days we're at the max of 12,000EAC per block. Then the block reward will go down to 8,000EAC in the coming 6 months. That's a decrease of around 33%. So currently the inflation of Earthcoin is the highest it will ever be.

PoS and PoW is not new. Deutsche eMark (DEM) has this since December.

http://www.deutsche-emark.org/

How i can even help EAC in any ways ,if the dev even dont know POS? thats fail.

No no no you WANT A COIN THAT CAN BE MINED.. SO U DONT HAVE TO BUY IT. Thats what i understand from all long words u said.

Check BitShares-PTS and BitSharesX(not yet launched) ,this is what i understood for the last 3 hours reading/searching about BitShares, they will combine POS and POW ,much like NXT (the BitSharesX) , but you must have BitShares-PTS coins (POW) in the BitShares-PTS wallet so later the amount in it will help for 'earning from transaction fees' in BitSharesX wallet later , this is even looks/sound better than NXT already, and i just know BitShares 3 hours ago.

You understand? You.Need.Innovation. Thats all. And byeee.

someone understands

Yes, but by then other coins may already have established the critical mass of users.

but after two, three years the coin will be mostly mined out, so it should change to deflation or some kind of balance, shouldn't?

POS is inflation?


I know economics is a difficult topic, so let me break it down for you:

POW is inflation. it makes people who own and use the coin lose buying power, because other people create more eac diluting their buying power and % of EAC they hold.

a POW guys's wallet will buy him less and less every day, even if prices stay the same.
why? because once the merchant realizes that he can sell his crates of of butter in 10 seconds for 1 mil eac, he is gonna charge 2 mil the next day. not because price of eac has changes, but because too many people have a mil eac, since 15 mil are produced every day.
his wallet contents will buy him less butter every day.
i.e.  his stake is diluted and diminished daily

 
POS does the opposite. it rewards HOLDERS. does NOT dilute their stake and does not punish people who use the coin and hold it. it gives those who do continually more coins, thus not creating inflation, or no comparable amount to "printing" eac by people who do not want to own it. i.e. multipools.


their wallet contents will buy them just as much butter or silver as id did the day before, if prices stay stable.
his stake remains the same. even if the amount of coins increases


economic lesson from your local polymath.

I do not want to talk down to people. this is very very hard to understand for the majority of people. only because they do not understand is why fiat is still around.

but it makes little sense to engage in the crypto game without grasping the nature of inflation and loss of buying power.

the market is infinitely perceptive. it understands inflation, even if the devs have a hard time with it. thus the eac slide to the teens in sat.

that is why the POS peercoin is and has been the 3rd biggest currency.
this is why every POS coin out there has more market cap than eac and more buying power


edit: to make it clear, POS can lead to a theoretically bigger amount of EAC than the POW scheme.
but only if you completely overdo the yearly interest AND do not lower this interest every year.
from this point on, POW standard EAC will produce 400% of what the amount of coins we have now. only THIS YEAR.

my suggestion of 25% interest or even 40% would be massively less coins than POW. a yearly lowering of 5-10% would put a significant cap on the production of eac.

so while in theory 1000 years from now there would be more eac with yearly interest of 1% ( or whatever is the minimum interest % ) than POW eac, if eac is still around in 1000 years, it can handle 1% each year.

POW is 400% of eac this year alone. AND it goes to people who do not use it or hold it. this 400% is pure inflation.
it offers nothing to current eac holders. it will not spread the coin any more than it already has.
it will only produce inflation and lower coin value.

so accusing POS of inflation is either dishonest, or speaks of a fundamental lack of economic understanding, or both.

Let's all give our EAC to the Jaguar rescue and stop worrying about the price. If it climbs we'll have more jaguars, and you wont be worried about what EAC is doing every day. Sound good? I mean, if you bought in at 80+, your EAC is worthless now, so why not? Truly not worth the stress.

I'm not trading daily if that's what makes someone a day trader btw. I just mined at the beginning and lately bought my way to 20M coins total just because I could. And I take it if I don't have the energy to do more, I should sell it all now and go away?