Topic: [ANN][KARM] Karma / ₭ / X11 - page 346. (Read 583278 times)

Regardless of method, I suppose that would be through hashing power as evidenced by Bitcoin.

In addition to wanting to reward our community, a stronger network was the primary reason we did Karmashares (as I stated several times when announcing PoC)

Perhaps few remember when the hash rate dropped down to 69 Mh/s a few days before announcing Karmashares.

Greater interest in Karma (helped by Karmashares) will also help to secure our network. (Of course, no one is implying that PoW, PoS, etc., is no longer important because of Karmashares)


Sorry. I don't understand what you're trying to say.

If you are suggesting that I limit my posts to 1 per day then I can only say that I am the best person to manage my own time. I tend to post as many as I would like to post, as I'm sure anyone would do. Some are "thank yous", some are asking for feedback, some are just picking my nose, some are profound, some are stupid, and some are replies to confusing statements.

But even when I am sick with the flu or posting meaningless stuff I can still get a lot done for Karma. In fact, while I was replying to your message just now I discovered a cure for diabetes!

If you'd like to help out instead of just posting here please come to the new forums. Bitcointalk is full of promises, but we're doing actual work now (obviously). We can even add you to the team. The more you can help, the better.

when you talk about security it is important to note that the only tried and tested technology is the PoW system implemented by Bitcoin..
every other system has not been around long enough... even exotic technological advancements in the PoW camp like X11, KGW, Digishield, Dark Send etc are not tried and tested over a long period of time so nobody knows for certain how successful or secure they will be.. We are all relying on theories of some very eccentric super braniacs to tell us what is secure and what isn't..

as far as PoS is concerned it has been around since Aug 2012 but even more recently in its 100% PoS form. PoS may or may not be more secure than PoW depending on how it is implemented. It has its own problems like the "Nothing at stake" attack and the hoarding/coin centralization problems.

An example of the coin centralization problem in PoS (ie too many coins in too few hands) can be seen quite clearly when you look at what happened to Ripples lab where the coin XRP has Dropped in value from a Market cap high of 600 Million down to 30 million.. that's a staggering 95% loss in value. now you can ask how did this happen.. well its quite simple.. when there aren't enough coins in circulation and most of them are controlled by a few people then its becomes iliquid and the price is artificially high. So much so that when just 1 or two people decide to leave the economy it collapses.

An example of this happening in the PoW camp.. is when Mt Gox shut down.. Another example of a PoW coin with too much centralizaion which could be artificially inflated is DRK (only time will tell)

Ultimately when it comes down to how successful coins are, as you have already stated, PoW vs PoS is quite irrelevant. I would argue that security wise, it is also not relevant because you are comparing apples to oranges.. swapping one problem with another.

if we look at the top coins by Market cap.. the entire Cryptocoin market is about 8.1 billion dollars. 7.9 billion of that is made up of just 2 PoW coins. compared that to the top 3 PoS enabled coins Ripple, PPC (PoW PoS hybrid) and NXT which make up for only 120 Million dollars in market cap.

Even without Bitcoin the top 3 PoW enabled coins still far outweigh the top 3 PoS coins in terms of market cap by an order of magnitude.
When we look at making fundamental changes to how our coin works (changes which could affect all of us if something goes wrong) we need to look at it from all angles.. not just which one is theoretically more "advanced" or theoretically more "secure".

In my view the biggest problem by far facing Karma is its excessively large coin supply and the centralization of the coins into a few early adopters hands.. this is why it is vitally important that we do not do anything to encourage further hoarding or increase rate of coin creation.

Karma coin supply is currently 53,752,974,065 KARM and will Max out at 92 billion over its lifetime.. (most of that being mined this year)

If today Karma switched to a PoS with 10% interest per annum we would reach 95 billion coins by 2020 and by 2025 we would have 153 billion coins in circulation and by 2030 that number would rise to a staggering 247 billion coins.

This means that any switch to PoS will require an interest rate much less than that (probably closer to 2% per annum matching the target inflation rate that the US and EU)

now with an Interest rate of around 2% per annum .. the argument that people make that PoS will stop the dumping and encourage people to invest in Karma simply evaporates. In Crypto-land where speculation is rife and people are expecting ridiculously high returns, even 10% per year would still not be enough to encourage people to hold Karma and 10% per year would all but destroy Karma in the long run.

so in summary it is my firm view that any switch to PoS would not resolve the biggest challenges that Karma faces and that is why I don't support the PoS change proposal.

It may lower the price on a per-coin basis, but the market cap would remain the same, assuming the same overall cap is kept. Think about it like this:

There are 50 coins in circulation and there is $100 invested. Each coin is worth $2 and the market cap is $100.
PoS just boosted this coin count up to 2x. Now there are 100 coins and $100 invested. Each coin is worth $1 but the market cap is still $100.

The number of coins isn't going to affect the market cap; only the price per coin. Over time this would be the same regardless, assuming there is an overall cap.

OK then, let's think of another way to secure the network. For the matter of discussion, let's say that I don't care if it is a PoS or something else. The PoS method is the only one that I am aware of. Other way, we will continue to argue what is most important - free opportunity or security. And you know there is no answer to this question. I don't quite understand the previous question, so I will answer that I am not aware of a coin that have migrated from PoW to PoS successfully and have good economy until now. I know 3-4 PoS coins with good economy. And after all you should consider that good economy has different meaning to different people.

P.S. About the FED. I am not sure that we will be able to become number 1 only with promises. Why doing all this great staff if it was possible? You have vision and ability to express it. Why not just posting 1 great post a day instead of bas____g your ba__s 18-19 hours a day?

It's likely that any system that potentially effects the number of coins in circulation would effect the economy. PoW, PoS, PoC, (premine), etc.

It's a large part of the reason you may not get high interest rates at your bank. The Federal Reserve (if you're in the US) wants you to spend money to grow the economy.

PoS is not only about security but also the economy.

You confuse me when you ask why PoS would help a coin's economy though. PoS/PoW/Premine/etc. have nothing to do with the economy; they have to do with security. Bitcoin has a high enough hash rate behind it that the security really isn't an issue (unless a government decided to crash it). KARMA, on the other hand, could benefit from the security, since it's more vulnerable. But this has nothing to do with the economy and it has nothing to do with the price. You can have the most secure coin ever and it have 0 value, or you can have the least secure one and it be worth billions.

Exactly.

As long as it was "good enough" to keep the Bitcoin network alive in 2009 and 2010, it would have survived.

It has nothing to do with it being PoW, though. It has to do with it being the first one, being around MUCH longer than most of the other coins (by a factor of multiple years, which is huge) and has its place of dominance. PoW or PoS is irrelevant. If Bitcoin were a PoW/PoS hybrid, it'd still be where it is today.

Well, you'd probably want an example of such a 100% pre-mined coin (of which there is none yet).

Bitcoin is somewhat successful, imo. But it's too complicated for the average person to want. They have a "wow" factor to techies but not the average person.

But at least there is 1 example of a successful PoW coin

Really, though, we could ask the same thing about PoW. The only truly successful coin at this point is Bitcoin. It's not about how coins are earned or are generated; it's about the marketing. You could have a 100% premined coin with no PoW or PoS benefits, yet still bring it above and beyond Bitcoin. It's all about marketing and getting people to adopt it as a means of transfer.

Heh.. no. Was just a thought experiment

If you had said "PoS" I would have said "But isn't PoS v2 more secure?"

If you had said "PoS v2" I would have asked why

On this thread we were struggling to find examples where PoS was implemented successfully for an coin's economy. (That is not to say that security is not also integral to) If you knows of any coin that is a successful PoS coins (price + economy) please reply here

I would like to invite the following Karma community members to read the proposed KARMA WIKI.
And to point out the many errors, grammatical and otherwise that they can find, so that we can refine our wiki. Suggestions for additional relevant content are also welcome.

kosmost
CatKiwi
Delaforetnoire
Jasondoge
KarmaKaguy
and the rest of the TeamKarma

http://karmashares.com/forums/index.php/topic,40.msg108.html#new

Website links are all working on the draft that was submitted to wikipedia. Pertinent images are to be uploaded by kosmost.
Thanks and may this wiki help us all in our effort to grow our community.

I was about to ask. Thank you for the remark!

Please stop spamming with pools 
I will add Pool Of Honor soon.

Thank you !

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Cheers and Happy Hashing!

Homepage
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We could use more miners, we are not enough to maintain a steady throughput of blocks and so we're in a spiral where miners leave. Please consider mining with us or one of these pools, none of these pools has >10mh/s throughput.

http://karma.miners-point.com/
http://chunkypools.com/karm/
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I send now my 24h mining earnings to Peyton's family : 450 000 Karma !

Way to pull together Karmanians!
Thanks to everyone.

A big high 5 to you D. You and I voting our butts off has paid off.
Thanks for all the votes from everyone.

cool, great news