Topic: [ANN][KARM] Karma / ₭ / X11 - page 69. (Read 583113 times)

I thought I saw a proposal involving people send in their username and passwords to Chargin ? 

no one is claiming mintpal has user's passwords.

It seems to me that if you have the details including username, email address and balance info that you really need no other mechanism than to set up a simple website that sends out "password recovery" email type of message per user asking them to come back to a page that has them input a new wallet address.

Once the person has confirmed their identity through the email / pw recovery test, you can just process the balances out to the new supplied address.

If mintpal actually has the cleartext passwords in their database, it would only further point out the fact that they were "No Talent Ass Clowns" ;-)

-dvd

Hello guys.

Please can we all unite and try to figure out the best solution to this? We always do this. the moment a decision is needed to be made we start contradicting each other and create unnecessary tension.


What is the most important part? To secure the V1 wallet. To get the wallet into the hands of our people. We have the luck and opportunity that only two other coin community have gotten so far. Ferdous, the mintpalV1 & Tahiti LTD will hand over the MintpalV1 and the info to me. The info will have the users name , email , deposit address and amount information.

again. the critical part is that we are having the opportunity to get our coins back. An opportunity that not many coin communities are getting,

This is where we need to come together. The most important part is that we all agree to a system for now. It doesn't have to be final. Once we receive the wallet and the info then we can look into the details and figure out what additional detail we might need.

Everything Charging , scryptminer , east , me and few others are doing is to make sure we :

1. Get the coins first
2. Distribute them to the proper owners
3. Avoid getting in trouble for stepping up to help with this process.


So if you want to help. do not waste time arguing with what is being suggested but help improve it. It is sad that as we are trying to figure out the best solution we are worried that it will back fire and get us in trouble. So please help us make this process fool proof and lift some of the stress off our shoulders.

Here is fluter coin  : https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.9572695
Here is fair coin : https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/annfair-faircoin-for-a-fair-economy-featuring-proof-of-cooperation-702675  and their recovery forms https://chain.fair-coin.org/rt/mintpal-recovery.html


Therefore; Before we spent more time in the ethical of giving up your password or not. Let move forward. Let's make the password optional. Name, email , mintpal deposit address , amount of coins , comment section for additional info. screen shot of your mintpalv2 page. If there is not enough information to validate your claim then you can offer your password to further prove such claim.

We also need to figure out how to approach the timeline:

How long do we keep the claims fill forms open. (while it would be ideal to leave it as long as possible it wouldn't be fair to the ones that filled it and waiting for their coins )
What to do if the wallet coins are less then the claims
What to do if every proven claim got their coins but there are left overs
Do we all agree that as long as the proposed steps are followed , then neither the people helping out nor the community should be help accountable if some one shows up months later and has undeniable proof that some of those coins belonged to them but the coins have already been distributed away.


Hope you all get the gist of this. There are few of us scrambling with what we got here , trying to come up with the best solution to this. we would love nothing more then to give everyone their coins back. But we have to come up with a unified agreeable solution with some 'rules" to prevent any of us getting into trouble.

Since the start of the Mintpal v2 claim form if you try to change the claim withdrawal address it doesn't appear to update. That means they would need to both fix that bug and make the withdrawal to the new person instead of you. I believe providing the username (email) and password is the best bad option. If you can't prove v2 balances the next best option would be to ignore v2 balances and use v1 balances, however that isn't fair for those that bought on v2. I think it is more fair to give people a "less safe" option than forcing some people to miss out simply because people may decide not to participate in the "less safe" option. My balance is the same in v1 and v2.

The issue isn't proving ownership of your account, it is proving the current balance of your account. Using your proposed method, how will people prove the balance of coins including those bought on Mintpal? The balance can only be proved if taken directly from the source...even then it isn't really proof, just the best we can do.

FYI Scryptminer is currently working on the website.

Chargin.

Thank you Chargin for your time and energies put into your well thought out post post. I agree it would be a fair course of action and have my support. Also Socoban thanks for clearing that up, I agree also.
As Socoban states time is of the essence and I think we should pursue this, before V2 gets taken down, for those who want to. Even if funds are not distributed by this plan, it would provide supporting evidence to any future claim.

Form submission will be valid only after user confirm validation email, hence nobody else can claim anything, only the owner of the email account. It is secure. Almost everything can be hacked, the question are costs of that hack. Hacking some server is not cheap, no way there will be hack on it. And even if they hack it, the only think they can steal is V2 pass. Karm wallets are somewhere else and users will validate via email confirmation links.

Yes it is wrong, but it is the only way how to prove what is your current V2 balance. No screenshot, no video can prove it. Everyone can fake such video in few seconds, just by using firebug and edit html code on the fly. Do you know any other way how to prove it? I will love to give my login&pass in round 1. If you do not want to share it, than there should be Round 2, or round 3 for those, who do not want to share and want to get paid according V1 balance. Those should be paid as last, since they can't prove 100% their current balance.   

I had only KARM and LTC on mintpal, I got my LTC back, so I do not care about giving pass to public. I did 0 transaction on v2 platform, so I am fine even with V1 balance.

Btw, There was definitely not billions of KARM traded on mintpal in v2. Trading volume was max few hundreds millions. I suggest to speed up Round 1, because mintpal v2 is still online. How long do you think it will be online? For months? we need to download balances ASAP using those passwords. And than rest KARM should be divided according V1 balance among rest users.

+1

And making a site secured is expensive, unsecured site is easy to be hacked so that the FORM submitted thru it may fall to anyone's hand that may claim thereafter the ownership of the funds we are trying to claim back and protect.

Anyway, Thank you very much Chargin and scryptminer for your efforts regarding this matter, also it is clearly stated that the above are just "beginning" and are open for editing and change of method.

My suggestion is to send an ecrypted message to whoever will be the final person to be trusted with these. AMOUNT, DEPOSIT ADDRESS USED IN MINTPAL (even if you sent KARMA from another exchange you can trace your deposit address in mintpal recorded on the withdraw list) and WITHDRAW ADDRESS.

SCREEN CAPTURES(video or still) will only prove the amount contained in those address and will not be the final say.

-east

this statement is false.

giving your password to someone allows them to claim all your coins still stuck on mintpal V1 and 2 not just your missing karma. it requires you to completely trust someone that you have never met. not only is this bad karma but it is bad and irresponsible crypto coin management.

this definitely should not be the recommended course of action.

proof of ownership can be done by signed messages or email verification... i.e. sending an email via the email address which is registered to your mintpal account or signing a message against the karma address which you used to fund mintpal from your Karma wallet.


handing over passwords and other identity information to some unverified person on the internet should only be done as a last resort when all other options are not possible. once your information gets on the internet it is virtually impossible to remove. and it really doesnt matter if you trust the person you are giving it to or not because once its out there it can be stolen, copied, misplaced and abused in any number of ways.

I believe the most reasonable way to return people's Karma is as outlined below. The most reasonable way to do something is of course always very subjective.

By posting this I do not condone the transfer of Karma to anyone, I'm suggesting an outline of a way to do something that is going to be done in one form or another irrespective of this post.

Round 1:

1. Emails/passwords to Mintpal v2 and withdrawal address/amount claimed (all required to be entered or nothing is recorded) sent to Scyptminer via a website he creates. In addition to this there will also be optional fields (eg for uploading supporting documents, comments, etc). Scyptminer is to be given the Karma wallet by FerdousBhai once the general community consensus is reached on what the Karma community would like FerdousBhai to do. FerdousBhai is unlikely to act unless a general community consensus is reached.

2. Scyptminer will create a scrypt to read the Karma balances on Mintpal v2.

3. Verification emails are sent to the emails recorded in step 1 to confirm withdrawal of entire balance to the karma address provided to the site (shortly before the next step).

4. After at least 4 weeks have passed, the total Karma held compared to claimed and v2 balances should be checked manually, then all withdrawals processed by Scyptminer after he is given the go ahead. Claims should be approved at the lessor of the amount claimed or the v2 balance amount, the remainder of claims should be reviewed in Round 2 (detailed below).

5. After steps 1-4 have been completed the first time the process can be automated fully or processed manually by scryptminer.

Round 2:

First round 2 distribution to be at least two weeks after the distribution for round one, however incorrect balances should start being recorded from Round 1.

Round 1 will miss transactions such as failed withdrawals because these are showing as processed when they haven't been. There may also be other unforeseen reasons the v2 balances are wrong, for example failed deposits. People may have lost the email accounts associated with Mintpal etc. Round 2 is for all the withdrawals that are more complicated or have any issues.

1. People will state how much more Karma they should have recovered compared to round 1 claims and provide what ever evidence they can to support this claim via the site used in round 1. This part can be done at the same time as round 1.

2. Three trusted people (if they have this type of claim - they can't adjudicate on their own claim, have some technical skills, plus access to the required data) should form a committee to determine the validity of the claims and instruct Scryptminer to pay it out if a valid claim is made. If there isn't enough to prove the claim is valid but it is likely it is valid the committee can defer payment to be made until the end of the process if there is still Karma remaining. The determination is done by votes with a majority of 2/3 required. Scyptminer can't be on the committee because he has enough responsibility already.

Misc:
People can nominate themselves (not others) to be on the committee. This can be determined by vote if more than three people would like to do this.

A hard cut off date of 6 months after the site is opened should be enforced, otherwise the process may never end and people with only "likely" claims will not get paid out.

The original 4 week window is your opportunity to submit your claim. If you don't submit it within this time there is a possibility there won't be enough Karma to pay out your balance at all. Treat it as if you only have one chance to claim. I know everybody wants their Karma now not in over 4 weeks but if there isn't enough Karma it will be first come first served, which isn't reasonable. In the event of a shortfall only balances that are provable will be admitted and a payment will be made on a pro rata basis (for example, everyone will get 50% of what is owed to them).

FAQ:

1. Why not just use v1 since not much karma was bought or sold.

You are guaranteeing some people will “lose” based on this almost arbitrary line in the sand. An unknown amount of Karma was bought/sold during v2. This is 100s of millions if not billions of Karma. This means 100s of millions of Karma will be given to the wrong people. The people that bought it later shouldn't be penalised. People will lose their entire balance of Karma if you go off v1. Even if 100s of millions of Karma may not sound like much to you, it is when it is 100% of your Karma.

2. Why 4 weeks after the site opens?

It is possible there will be more provable claims than Karma recovered. Four weeks should be enough time for everyone to put their claims in to determine if this is the case. An alternate plan will need to be put into place if this were to occur.

3. Why “risk” your v2 email/password?

Realistically, it isn’t worth anything currently. Even if somebody has it, if you haven’t received your coins already it is very unlikely they will get it out of Mintpal. Make sure you change your password on others sites if you've used the same password.

4. Why are the failed withdrawals and other none matching amounts being done second? These claims are harder to review, so they will take a few weeks longer to review. Round 2 claims are to be lodged at the same time as round 1 claims, this will make sure if there is a deficiency in Karma (for whatever reason) both rounds claims will be reduced. If total round 1 and 2 claims exceed Karma balance at the end of round one then

5. Why not just get the person who currently holds the funds (Ferdousbhai) to distribute them? He doesn’t want to. It will be a pain in the *** and some people will not get what they are owed because they can’t prove it. Somebody (or a committee) will have to play the bad guy and not return a claim because it can’t be proved and/or somebody will get cheated which may mean somebody else loses Karma they can clearly prove they are owed.

6. Why Scyptminer? He already has more Karma than he can reasonably get rid of. Scyptminer is willing/capable of making the aforementioned site.

7. Why three people to determine who gets items in round 1. So no one person is blamed for somebody not receiving their Karma (they may be entitled to but it isn’t provable) or somebody getting Karma they are not entitled to.

8. What about funds I deposited into Mintpal after v2 that aren't showing in the balances? These will form part of the claim in Round 2. If these deposits were not received in the wallet due to an incorrect address being generated by Mintpal v2, these addresses may be able to get regenerated or your claim may not be provable and assessed on that basis.

9. Why do you need my email address / my password / my withdrawal address?

We need the email address and password to log into the site. Not all transactions occur on the blockchain after being sent to an exchange. Most transactions buying/selling to other people on exchanges don't move any Karma, it is only recorded in the account system of the exchange. You can see transactions sent to exchanges however these addresses are swept and the funds moved from the live/hot/online wallet to an offline wallet / cold storage. This does not represent if somebody sold or bought more Karma.

The reason screenshots and videos to verify your claim is because they can be easily faked.

We need your withdrawal address so it isn't a requirement to have it filled in on Mintpal. Also you may not wish to use your withdrawal address you put into Mintpal as the withdrawal address now.

10. How do you know the v2 balances are correct?

We don't. However I believe they are most likely to be correct. It is imperative to put in your claims in the first 4 weeks so there is a better indication of if there is a shortfall of funds or not. I would suggest 6 months for this process really, however I know the community at large will not agree with that, which is a requirement for the Karma being given to somebody.

11. I want to be the person to have the Karma wallet...

Please feel free to post here if you do. We can also hold a vote for that possession.

12. I don't like this part of the above.

Please feel free to post here what you'd like to change. The number of comments in favour or against the amendment. This is a starting point.

13. I don't like any of the above, even as a starting point.

Please feel free to comment here. Please make sure you post your alternative suggestion. This is a starting point.

14. Chargin, are you going to nominate yourself to be on the committee for advising scyptminer if he should send the round 1/2 balances?

No. If the committee needs interpretations of what has been agreed to or another party to determine if the process is being handled as the community requested or in the spirit of the above proposal I will advise them when requested.

Thoughts on some FAQ's for site.

Why can't I log in to Mintpal?

I don't have a karma wallet where do I get it from?

Who do I message about my claim?

What I do, I don't know if my balance is correct or not?

I can't access my Mintpal email address, how will you contact me?

How are you affiliated with Mintpal / how did you get the funds etc?

Who is on the committee?

Who holds the funds?

Why haven't you sent me my funds yet?

I disagree with your determination, now what?
-Can be reviewed by the committee again at their discretion, they get the final say.

Chargin.

What is current plan for Karma? Any news?

Good to see there's some hope for the Karma from Mintpal, best of luck to all those stuck with coins there!

If that can help you to figure out, it was 881 Mintpal V1 users with Fluttercoin balance.  500 of them had a very little amount.  Out of the other, less then 100 has claimed yet their balance.  Around 25% of fluttercoin total supply is-was in Mintpal (58M), arount 20M has been sent back (I dont have the last update).

LOL, I would love to give you your coins, but I do not have any:( This is just a discussion how to distribute KARM saved by original Mintpal staff. I do not know them, read the forum, someone else has access to it.

Hello Karmanians,

First of all please do not send me any PM's or emails with any information regarding the Mintpal Claims here on the Forum. We are currently setting up a claims form where anyone who has a claim to make of Mintpal v1 can register. We will be releasing information on how and when you can reclaim your Karma, so please be a little patient.

At this point in time we have only the word of someone who will hand over the data, I will believe it when I see it and the we have to look at what state the data are in. No one should at this point really bother about passwords or usernames as this side is dead. If you however use the same credentials everywhere I would strongly suggest you make a little effort for your own sake to never use the same credentials twice.

Stay tuned for more information, Who / Chargin will update you shortly.

Best,
scryptminer

Yup, but if other sreceive MIN of both values, there will be enough KARM in the fund to cover your 340 million KARM. Best would be to have some automatic scrypt which will pay min of both values + some manual alternative, where people will have to provide login&password for V2 version.  Video or screenshot can be taken as proof only in case v1 and v2 values are same.  If those are different, than v2 password is the only option.    

BTW, it takes very few seconds to edit html code and change values, so neither screenshot nor video will be a proof. The only proof is v2 password.

EDIT:
The question is, how many people you think had KARM on Mintpal, if less than 100 than everyone should provide his pass. One human can check it easyly, no automatic work is required.

LoL, it is market, people are buying and selling karm there. I bought all my KARM on mintal and cryptsy and always deposit it from cryptsy to mintpal or back. I have no address at all.  The only way is login+password. or login + screenshot + Min value of both values from v1 and v2

I guess it's rather impossible, unfortuantely :/

Yes Facira, but you have to wait for the "request" of such information before you share the link. Details are being worked out at the moment.