Topic: [ANN][LSK] Lisk | Blockchain Application Platform for JavaScript Developers - page 2179. (Read 3074169 times)

You bonus will appear automatically when you get your Lisk in the genesis block.

At Crypti, a delegate that wasn't running a node could be voted from Standby to Active status.  With the current Crypti / Lisk blockchain explorer written by Olivier, there is no indication whether there is a server running or not behind a Standby Delegate.  So at Crypti when you voted up a Standby Delegate, you didn't know if there was a computer or even a still-active person behind that Standby Delegate.  This was less than ideal, of course, to say the least.  One problem was that there wasn't even an email address on file to tell somebody they had just been voted to active status and were now expected to stand up a server node.  So basically these new Active Delegates would sit there not forging after they had been voted up and everybody would wait a few days to give them a chance to get their act together before voting them down and trying somebody else.

Look, DPoS is not a magic bullet.  It's hard to do it right, and it takes lots of people cooperating and communicating to make it work.  The most frustrating part in DPoS is seeing that there is a problem like an idle Active Delegate, and being personally powerless to fix that problem, and having to wait for votes to show up to fix it.  Crypti had a good system in place but not enough people involved to really make it work.  Lisk will add lots more people to the mix than Crypti ever had, and significant forging rewards to Active Delegates that Crypti never had.  Are these two changes gonna be enough to make DPoS Active Delegate forging work perfectly and smoothly right from the start?  My bet is no way.  But Max and Olivier (and many others including me) care enough to keep slogging through what ever problems show up and keep Lisk and its DPoS forging going.    


Running lots of servers from many locations under a single mastermind makes the servers themselves more physically secure and more reliable, but still requires greater trust in the mastermind.   What if we go from 101 Lisk Foundation nodes to five community masterminds running 20 nodes each, and these five guys are Ethereum supporters who have organized a setup to gain control over Lisk?  What if these five guys all shut their servers off simultaneously?  The name of the game in blockchain building is trust no one.  If you've got to trust somebody, then give as small an amount of trust as possible to as many people as possible, and hope that a majority are worthy of that trust.  

Any attempt by you to get more than one node going may receive votes, but it is contrary to the decentralization goal is that Lisk is trying to achieve.  I'm not saying that to discourage or demonize you, just to lay the cards out on the table.  If you want to try for the votes to run multiple nodes, go for it.

I actually think spending $900 to buy 100 CHIP computers and dispersing these worldwide for free to volunteers that want to run the Lisk backbone is a great idea.  I have even suggested this very idea to Max as a way to organize and especially control the switchover from Foundation to Community delegates.  He is concerned about getting dedicated people that would actually use such a handout for its intended purpose, and rightly points out an Active Delegate needs to self-declare their intentions and fund their own node as partial proof of their worthiness.  

But check my post about "latency" a few pages back on page 89.  Just because you want to host a $9 Lisk node at home doesn't mean you will be able to do so.  Lisk, like Crypti, has a 10 second block time.  This requires some fast communication between 101 computers spread worldwide.  If your home internet connection is "slow" in its ping latency, you'll never run a node from there no matter how capable the computer is that you have.

Check out the Crypti blockchain explorer, this shows what the Crypti experience is.  Especially check out "Delegate Monitor" under "Tools".  

https://cryptichain.lisk.io/

Note that the bottom third of the Active Delegates have only received less than 100 XCR in forging fees and all have 13.4% approval (votes).  These are all "rocket name" nodes put up by one "mastermind" (one of the Crypti Foundation members)  to overcome the drag being produced by a bunch of idle Active Delegates who had been voted up from Standby and never put a Crypti node up.   As you can see, even masterminds have been unable to get the Crypti network at "100% online / 100% uptime".  It's harder and more trouble than you might think at first.

But let me end on an optimistic note - DPoS does work and Lisk will succeed!

Question: bought on the first day of ico.
Is there a way to collect the 15% bonus?

Wait, a delegate that isn't running a node can be voted in?  So, you mean that I can sign up as a delegate and not setup any node, keep my server down in order to save on electricity, etc and then when I get notified that I have been voted up then I will have my chance to turn on my server?  In the other hand, if I get voted in and I am not running a server, will I lose my chance right away and the next delegate in stand-by will get the vote?


So I see that its not favorable for one single individual to be running like 20 servers because this will be seen as the network being less secure.  Okay, so here is my question, instead of one individual running the 20 servers physically in his house under the same ISP IP address, would it then be favorable if this same individual were to run 20 different virtual servers on 20 different data centers and IP addresses?  I know its the same individual running the operation, but because each node is on different locations, if something bad happens to node A, node B, C, etc continues to run, I dont see how the network would be less secure despite these nodes having been created by a single individual.  

I would be tempted just to run two servers in my house instead of one, just two delegates, would Max and Olivier know that these two servers are under the same IP address?  Or, do you know (going by the Cripti experience) if IP addresses gets passed  over the network and becomes public knowledge or at least knowledge to anyone whatsoever.  I am not asking this question because I am planning to run lots of servers "Secretly" here on my house, I fully understood that this would be view as making the network less secure and because of this I understand and would be refraining from attempting to run lots of servers here physically in my house (so I guess I could say bye bye to what I was thinking -- purchasing 101 $9 computers - even though if I get approval from the Admins I am more than willing to do it since my house is a very secure place and there is nothing to worry about here and with me)

Question: Would 128MB of RAM and 500 MHz under a Linux (ARM) environment be enough to run a delegate server?  Is CPU speed important at all?  Also, how much bandwidth is needed for a single delegate?  Would max 10 GB monthly be more than enough?

Thanks.

Lisk is most secure when 101 individuals are running 101 separate Active Delegate nodes and this should be our goal.  You don't want 5 people running 20 nodes each in secret.  You don't want 5 people running 20 nodes openly, either, if there are other good candidates who could take some of those slots as Active Delegates.  But despite this ideal, you can certainly show up and say you've got 20 servers ready to go if you want.  Who knows how people will vote?  Maybe you will get them all on line, maybe only some, maybe only one on line.  It all depends on the votes.

The reality of the situation is that two people, Max and Olivier, will be setting up the 101 initial Lisk Foundation servers to get the Lisk blockchain going.  Max and Olivier will also control around 15% of the Lisk votes in the beginning with the Lisk Foundation funds.  This is a huge amount of centralized voting power.  Unless they specifically say they will refrain from voting, I believe they will exercise these votes as required to get the community Lisk Active Delegates off to a good start.  I personally am 100% certain they will vote in a way to replace Lisk Foundation nodes with individuals as much as possible instead of "forging farms" run by a single mastermind.  This is just how Max and Olivier think, they believe in decentralization of Lisk as a primary goal, which is a good thing.

The rest of the delegate votes (85%) are going to be split over a much larger group of people (hundreds if not thousands of people) who get their votes from the 85M Lisk being distributed.  It will be very hard to get these people to vote at all, much less in a coordinated manner.  The most common feeling, in my opinion, will be "why bother to vote, my share is so small it won't matter, I'm just in this to make some money on this coin, not get involved in a community".  The situation will be much different than it was in Crypti, which never really had a crowd of small-holdings voters in control of picking the active delegates.  Lisk could very well be a mess in the beginning that trails off to apathy in the future where very few people vote at all after the initial spurt of interest in launching Lisk.  This potential for a mess is why I believe Max and Olivier will step in at the beginning to organize the community active delegate setup and get it on its feet.  

Your questions about standby delegates are critical and important ones.  In year one of Lisk, an Active Delegate can make as much as 150K Lisk.  Somebody that remains a Standby delegate for a year and never gets enough votes to go Active will make zero Lisk.   So...what is the motivation for them to keep a Lisk node server ready to go on hot standby if they are suddenly and unexpectedly voted up?  What happened at Crypti is that standby delegates were suddenly voted up one day only to discover not only was there no running node server, the person himself had long since left the party and was nowhere to be found.  

Here's a side thought.  The Bitcoin miner "get-rich-quick" mentality of fielding as much gear as possible to get as big a piece of the pie as possible - that attitude really isn't what Lisk is about.  Lisk is about cooperation to further the community, not competition to further one person.  You would help Lisk much more if you took a deep breath, purged yourself of your dreams of being a dragon sitting atop a big pile of coins, and tried to think of a different was to apply that drive and energy that would help Lisk as a whole instead of you personally.  For example, use the time you would spend running 20 nodes to learn JavaScript and go write a dapp!

Bottom line, the DPoS voting / forging part of Lisk is just as important as the price swings of the coin and further development of the code.  Nobody really knows yet how well the Lisk DPoS delegate system is really going to work as a social system.   Honestly, we are off in uncharted territory.  Lisk is different from Crypti in that it pays Active Delegates significant rewards to motivate them.  Whether this will be enough to make the whole system run smoothly will be very interesting to watch.

 

Ok, I am beginning to understand how this delegate stuff more or less is going to be working.

So, it would be a bad idea for a person to create say 20 different names for 20 different delegates as the hassle wont be worth it to going to the chat rooms or forums to present all these 20 different names as different persons to vote for them (too much work).

But, if the same person decides to run 20 delegates, all under the same name then the community would only vote for one of them, and not for all of them, even if the campaign happens to be a nice one because I assume the community doesn't want one single person running like 20 delegates.

Just like Bitcoin mining where we all went crazy and purchased at first lots of GPU's, then LOTS of USB Block Erupters (because with just one we weren't making enough money), I would want to be able to run more than one delegate to make more money and also hope that all of my delegates gets voted in the the 101 spots.  IF I show up to the community and I announce that I have 20 servers up and ready to delegate, would the community be fine with it?

Also, do we get some type of recompense for being a "stand-by" delegate?

Are Stand-by delegates immediately summoned up for "work" as active delegates if any of the 101 delegates were to become suddenly offline? Or is there a time frame that the community waits before calling that node "dead" and putting the stand-by delegate to work (active).

Dude, relax.  NOBODY maintains 100% uptime, not at Crypti, not at Lisk, not anybody.  

It's a lot more important to participate routinely in the community so your name is known and people have some trust in you and will recognize your name on a ballot.  Having a single perfect number, especially one that gets reset every so often, is a poor way to choose somebody.  Plus, poor runtime numbers are how you decide to vote somebody DOWN and OUT of the top 101 delegates.  You certainly don't want to hide the facts about a person's runtime with a periodic reset.  Also, a poor active delegate gets replaced by a standby delegate with 0% uptime, so what good is voting by uptime numbers at that point?

Being a Delegated Proof of Stake (DPoS) delegate is a lot more about campaigning under your own name than it is focusing on one number.

What? No grace period and it doesn't reset?  You are making me nervous now specially since 2 days ago my Verizon FiOS connection decided to take a 6 hours "vacation" after 1:30AM due to a storm.  So you are telling me that if my uptime status were to change from 100% to 99 or 98% that I will never have a 100% uptime status for this delegate EVER AGAIN? I think that it should reset every months to make it fair.

Also, I see users very hesistant to taking down their servers to update the software if it means that they get to perpetually lose their 100% uptime status.  So, if Admin decides to perform a mandatory update for the software the delegates are running, that means that users lose their 100% status.

Also, once I loose my 100% status, even at no fault to me (say there was a mandatory Lisk software update that I HAVE to install), so I lose 100% status forever, and a new user that comes online and is 100% uptime will get the favor of the community, so all those Raspbery Pi 2 computers I would be running would be a waste.

Question: Would having a redundant internet connection in case if the first one fail cause me to still loose the 100% uptime status?  Example: My Fios Connection goes down, therefore My backup Cable ISP connection kicks in automatically maintaining my computers up, since this switch over took lets say 5 seconds to complete because I would have a watch dog monitoring in realtime, would that still cause me to loose my 100% uptime status?  The only issue I could see with this is all of a sudden running under a new public IP address.

Note for admin: If there is not any provisions for "forgiving" a delegate for briefly going down, then you should implement one, implement a 30 days reset, that way everyone that wants to be seen as 100% uptime always gets that change of showing responsibility.

If you take down a delegate, uptime % will decrease. So to answer, yes it will affect your uptime "status". As far as I know there is no grace period.

Same thing with your ISP issue, your uptime % will suffer and it does not reset. The best you can do is keep it up as much as possible and try to reach that 99.9%

https://lisk.io/documentation?i=lisk-whitepaper/LiskWhitepaper#3-consensus

In regards to running a delegate, lets say I want my delegate(s) to have a 100% uptime status, if I have to take down a deletage to update its corresponding software will that affect my uptime "status", or will there be fair grace period allowing me sufficient time to update my core software without loosing my 100 % uptime status.

Also, lets assume that I experience a brief downtime from my ISP which would affect my uptime % and get reduced from 100% down to maybe 99.x%, assuming no further downtime occurs, will my uptime status get reset back to 100%?  If so, in how many days?

The ico goes sky high. At the moment 1300btc+

Sure. Everything is currently running on testnet. All delegates will be removed before the mainnet goes online. So it's nothing more than "playing around" if someone asks for votes for his testnet-delegate-account.

I believe the actual network launches after the ICO

An admin who approves or disapproves a delegate does not exist. You have to get voted into the 101 delegate list by the owners of Lisk. There is no limit on how many nodes you can have up at one time, just make sure to have excellent uptime and get enough people to vote for you. There are 100,000,000 million votes out there (1 vote per Lisk, e.g. if you hold 1 million Lisk in a wallet your vote counts as 1% of the total 100% possible).

Nope, there aren't any rules stating one delegate per person. You decide how many nodes you want to have and the voters (the community, Lisk holders) decide whether they get into the 101 delegates.

No.


The fee makes you a delegate forever, but, it doesn't guarantee you will be in the top 101 delegates (you will be a standby delegate until people vote you up). You do not get your fee returned.

Can I have more than one delegates running under the same IP address?

Example:  I have 6 computers at home that I am not using that I am more than willing to setup as delegates for the main net Lisk network.

Is it true that Admin will have to approve a delegate after getting voted in by the community?  If so, will Admin have trouble approving a delegate from the same IP address as another delegate that got already approved and is already voted in by the community under the same IP address?

Does Admin have any objections in regards to a user running, say 20 delegates all in his house under the same IP address?

Are there any limitations in regards to users running more than 1 delegates on his/her house besides the 100 Lisk fee.

In regards to the 100 Lisk fee, what happens if a user decides to stop being a delegate, will this user get their 100 Lisk fee returned? 

Will the 100 Lisk fee qualify the user to be a delegate forever?

nope."Delegates" are equal to "mining" in usual crypto.like "forging" in NXT.
the ICO is ICO,it's about buying LISK with BTC.
"Delegates" must be approved buy admins after the users votes like "workers" in bitshares network
it's in test phase for now

Network is not live. There is a current test network running but it's for, well, testing

It's over 9000!!!!1!!

W...What? your talking about the ICO of lisk right? Do I need to tweak the delegates just to participate in ICO?

Beluga Caviar