Topic: [ANN][SLR] SolarCoin | PoW to PoS v. 2.0 | Solar Proof of Generation (§1 = 1MWh) - page 235. (Read 466822 times)

 https://chainz.cryptoid.info/

currently has a $185,500 market cap

 Why SolarCoin a such an artificial capitalisation.
The developers have created a giant premine and now we see a complete lack of interest from buyers.
http://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/views/filter-non-mineable/



Or there are other reasons? 

33 Million Coin with a $151,512 Market Cap means you will need buyers not Claimers for the next 40 years. If no one buys the price stays the same. If PoW coin sells to low buyers to bring them in, your price goes down. No one wants to buy high so they place their bids low.

The same 33 Million Coins adjusted to the proper Wholesale of 1MWH should be $90 to $120, in recent years in some places it went to $200. Don't PEG your price out to 40 years! The utility may be gone by then and something more creative could take Solar Coin's place. Even then your effective Market Cap accounting for all 98 Billion coins could still only be around 41 Million if the price dips to .000002 from .00002 with all the selling over the years, and that is if BitCoin supports a decent price vs value. This is what will happen too, it will gently erode or even slam from people selling out their claims. No buy support remember. If the price goes up it will be a miracle.

33 Million Coins at $120 per coin is a 3.96 Billion dollar Market Cap. When you consider Trading 3.96 Billion is a very big number, since that is the transactional power of influx buying vs selling for payback of costs of goods sold.

Creating Locked down Claims and forcing people to buy the coin if they want to participate creates buy support.

I am also not sure if people are worried about false claims or how scrupulous the whole project may be. Locking down claims and forcing people to buy coin would prove the coin more stable. Although most of the PoW coin could be held by one group right now, (Bittrex 800K and 700K wallets) and if they Claim they will have an edge on the entire network.

Hi all,

Just confirming how the inflation rate. interest rate (i) and Interest reward (r) will be calculated for the SolarCoin POST case?

e.g. continuing from the Vericoin white paper pg. 13

eq. 8. Inflation rate (t)
t= (17*(log(n/20))/100

n= average network weight

eq. 7 Interest rate (i)
i = t*33,669,389 /n

33,669,389 was taken as the number of coins in circulation, or, will it be the 98 billion?

eq.6. Interest reward (r)
r= si*33/(365*33+8)

r= product of Stake-Time, s= interest rate and i = an approximation of the number of days in a year.

Should i = 365.25? To account for leap years?

Thanking you,
lfloorwalker

That is fantastic news!

I just realized that the inflation would be much lower using my idea now. 33Million plus any outstanding Claims becoming Live or Usable will always be more than the percentage plus fees scenario I mentioned.  Even if only 1Million Claims hit the network normally then 2% of 33Million is the 600K you mentioned. The Claiming of coin is inflation of the coin. Now if you have 34Million after that 1Million claim they will POS and cause more inflation exponentially upwards to 98Billion. The 2% on 98Billion after all coin is claimed makes a hefty amount of inflation. My idea will boost the Price of the Coin in play and any inflation will adjust this price in the market anyways. Since it is a set amount and not a surprise every year or unknown aspect to understand why the value may be going down as people sell off claims.

Where my idea is to make these claims so they can not be spent. This protects the market from dumping claims, or shall I say "Claim Dumpers". So if you claim the coin it means you want to use it... not necessarily profit from it. This is the simplicity of the idea and you now turn the Claims into a Security Measure with added weight to grant a better investment and better return as the coin goes viral. Since you would also agree that Buying Coin drives the Market and this alone would be the only way a claimer could make a larger return on their Claim. If people can't figure out how to buy the coin or it is too difficult then the coin is doomed anyways. You need buyers period. My idea drives buying... any selling would be people getting out or taking their COSTS back from selling products to people using SLR to buy items with.

The community can decide on these concepts and work through the best scenarios. I would hope the community sees the value and security in the concept. And also reward me with some Claims if possible. I will buy coin to go with it!

• We have made the site (solcrypto) into Japanese. So this means that another language and 130 million Japanese speakers can read about SolarCoin!
  The FAQ parts were the hardest to translate.
• So far, we have 2209 solar plants listed in Japan inside the Solcrypto website. They include the location (lat/long), size (MW), Owner company name. Additionally, we connected the Solcrypto site to a satellite algo that checks the surface of Japan plus a public database of solarplants >50kW in size and automatically lists all plants in Japan. The algo is re-run each week and re-updates the list.
• Now also that the site is in Japanese, our affiliate ripple sites in Japanese language are starting to link to the solcrypto site.

Thanks,
lfloorwalker

You're welcome, and I am glad you have that attitude towards me since I am only trying to make your coin stronger and more viable.

Yes, that was just an idea, there are so many creative ways to do this properly. It really makes it no different than a normal claim, only that the Claimed coin must stake a Minimum of time that it creates its own value in staking and at that point it would equal the claim. This can be controlled since a claim will have a special wallet address that adds up the totals. So if you buy 100,000 coins and stake your claim, it will stake the claim faster and grant your claim in POSt securing the network in the meantime. It could also just lock the Claim down never to be sold also but give a bigger boost to the POSt functions until X amount of coin is Staked with the claim but this original Claim will Stake Perpetually whenever the wallet is online.

The difficult part is encoded by the DEVS/VeriCoin no one has to learn anything to make it happen. They just have to buy some coin if they want to earn more stake. They could buy no coin and still get a stake too just very small. Since the coin is always locked as a Staking Mechanism you also have 100% security from every Claiming participant, this will be the first of its kind in added security since everyone who claims will be helping secure the network even if they don't buy any coin. This doesn't have to even be a requirement these are just ideas. You may conform them to any direction needed to make it simpler.

A better explanation would be that the Claim acts like an ASIC while POSt activity is happening. The coin can never be spent in these scenarios, it is just to boost your Staking attempts that grant you more likely shares than other normal coin on the network, that consequently may not be staking. The Claim is a natural security measure even if you put it into an Online Wallet. It can never be spent ever, but could be sold though to another wallet but must remain in perpetual stake.

Or get this, you could screw it all up and after 40 years all Claim coin becomes spendable.


The inflation would be based on the claims still. But you have to also consider that people will WANT to buy coin at this point which would instantly boost your economy and price of SLR. Even just for the fact that there is only 33Million coin now available! It would act like a fulcrum instead of waiting 40 years to grant up to 98Billion claims, you lock all claims down to secure the network and the 33Million now adjust for a new Market Cap. This could be based on a larger inflation rate too, but granted that because of the Price of the coin vs only 33 Million coin instead of 98 Billion. Now the coin can better match 1MWH per coin at around $90-$120 per coin. It can easily sustain this as people Claim in and buy coin wanting to get in on the action.

If people want to use affiliates they may do so and not buy coin if it is too complex to purchase from FIAT to SLR. We can never help this scenario, so there is still no need to worry about these people since they will still get a small percentage of POSt based on their claim inside their wallet at the affiliate who manages their accounts.


Yes, but you are talking about the percentages compared to 98Billion outstanding and low incentive for staking. My idea takes care of the incentive all together meaning if you Claim you will have no choice but to Stake that Claim perpetually and secure the network. Turning your computer off is the only way to not stake your claim. My idea also follows POSt rules, it just tweaks the percentages in favor of Claims vs held Coin to Stake along with the Claim. The amount of inflation does not have to change from your current model.

Just take the POSt settings that you would normally use but integrate the Claim to boost the possibility of winning a Stake on the network. If everyone on the network has a Claim guess what... It is equal amounts based on the total coin. So this means the interest rates are no different than what they would have been. Unless you want to sweeten the POSt Pot some how. This is up to you. Since there will not be 98Billion coin in circulation looming over SLR you could sweeten the pot.  This would make sense to do since only those who Claim will have better chances to get a Stake. It is a payback for using Solar and Claiming to secure the network. The Claims could also share in the Network Fees, you could make this the sweetened pot. So what happens here is that all Network Fees get accumulated and only Claimers may Stake to win these fees. And guess what happens now... you perpetuate usage of the coin and grant that usage fees to Claimers. So once the coin hits critical mass and becomes used as BitCoin is (but with lower carbon footprint) then now you have utility for your Claimers to drive the network Security and also be paid better for their Claiming into and usage of the network.


SLR is still growing the same way, you are just securing the network better using the Claims. This also gets rid of the 98Billion outstanding tokens so to speak and no longer makes it into a Flight Miles scenario. The percentages could be exactly the same as they are now. I am only talking about the Claims not being used as the Money but as a Security Tool and also a boost in POS/POSt that could now be created from Network Fees as I just discovered while writing. The more the coin is used the better the Claimants payout is. The only way a wallet can participate in the Network Fee payout for POSt is to have a Claim, the amount of your Claim and the amount of Coin in your wallet determines the value of the payout from the Network fees accrued up till that point. Or you could roll in the entire network fees across the POSt structure and again make the Claims get a better chance or weight to get a stake from POS percentage plus fees included and that would be fair also. So many creative ways to do this again.

So every wallet would inherently make what they normally would have made but with less value as claims being dumped and sold, up to 98Billion etc. This would go on for 40 years looming out there and destabilize any forward progress. As the price goes up people get interested in Claiming and Selling and they sell and the price goes down, subsequently the price going up may get even more Claimers and they sell for profit never to return.

There is no incentive to buy as there is on eBay. Yes there is an effective network for small things that could then became large but you are comparing the success of eBay which was the small items that people who didn't know existed for sale until eBay came along. The lure to them was to get something they needed and bid on it instantly for what they would like to pay. Where a coin is only as good as its utility and coincidentally SLR coin deals with utilities yet is unplugged from the power outlet until that utility can be derived and compared to a small product that every person didn't know about but would like to bid on.

Thanks for your time and consideration to making this coin into a PowerHouse!

Crypto Nick, firstly thank you for the honest criticism as it forces us to think through our assumptions and ideas.

I am not quite sure I understand the requirement for "claimants" requiring a stake before being able use the coins. On the one hand it would force participants to "learn" about the system more etc. but the risk is the higher "functional" utility and complexity involved may be a turn-off.

In terms of inflation etc. Claimants will likely be small % of circulating coin base for some time. ongoing claims will likely rest in accounts until price become interesting for spending.  Another factor to consider is that affiliate web sites will be launching which will give claimants the choice to use affiliate website to manage their accounts. Many will likely choose this path for convenience (no software download, no blockchain download etc.)

In such a situation the affiliate will likely be managing the staking process for an aggregate of claimants.  The idea of only allowing claims to stake is interesting but introduces a level complexity into the algo that may introduce risk for limited benefit, but I am open to understanding the benefit more.

The foundation will target a low inflation rate based on current circulation. This will effectively offer a fixed annual stake rate say 2% relative to the 33.67m coins outstanding.

Over time the effective inflation rate due to staking will shrink as the circulating SLR base grows.

Inflation effects from claimants increasing the circulatory base should become a greater factor in monetary inflation (once claims exceed 2% of circulating base §670k annually).

That being said, it is believed that the value created by a growing network of participants will increase the aggregate monetary base value faster than the circulating base thus increase the price per unit.  Value creation is an emergent phenomenon of networks, the larger the network, the more value emerges per participant.

Example ebay. In 1980 one may have had some "junk" in garage, said junk may have been to minor to pay for a classified ad per individual item and yet too small a collection to have a garage sale. The economic utility was minimal.  Across the country millions of individual had "junk". Ebay as an informational network created value by connecting people wishing to trade what was before hand seen as "junk" with marginal utility.  The network effect of connecting millions created value for those holding junk as well as Ebay for facilitating the network.  The resultant network value was a function of the increased transactional utility enabled by Ebay.  Facebook does the same thing with "personal updates, lol cats etc." that had limited utility when disaggregated and difficult to "publish" and find" The social graph (network) reduced the publish / search cost effectively creating enormous value for end users and facebook.

Solarcoin distributes digital tokens § which seen individually have limited value, like shells, or round bits of metal. When connected as a transactional system they provide potential utility as the network of participants or those having these tokens increases, more merchants etc. see an audience and wish to tap that utility while at the same time grow the networks utility.  The math for bitcoin is roughly 3.5m users creating $3.5 billion in utility or $1,000 per user which emerges as the function of the network.  SolarCoin likely has a small community supporting a $150-200k market cap, grow the network and the utility of the aggregate network as well as the per participant utility likely grows.

The trick is to make the marginal effort of claiming (joining the § network) so easy that early adopters sign up for what is effectively a free option. if enough participants engage, the network effect takes off and the option may have an interesting value. To that end we are working on easy claim affiliate sites in local languages that get rid of a software download and blockchain download. POSt is being launched to dump the carbon footprint while increasing the security associated with the blockchain.

Nick

All quiet before the storm?

Yes, PoST is good and the Transaction Fees can get paid to Stakers too. So why even use SLR just buy some VRC! Oh I forgot you can always just claim and sell SLR and then buy some VRC!

If SLR is going to use VRC PoST and the Community/DEV's don't change the claiming it will be a wasted opportunity.

Locking in a Value of a Claim to adjust the Time/Probability to Stake would be ideal. It gives worth to Claiming and will boost buying of SLR since you can not sell your claim coin until you produce some type of PoST with it. You could even make it so that you PoST out the entire claim value in coin and it lowers the PoST values after a certain amount of Staking vs Coin Held. If someone takes the time to Claim they will also find out how to buy and stake their coin. You could also make it so only Claims can Stake but I think just making them pay off more Percentage of PoST would be the way to go.

Attach the Claim to a Wallet (or transfer from address to address even) and that claim will boost the wallet Stake against normal coin, and 98 Billion in Claims means massive staking on the network plus buying of the original 33 Million coin!!! Tell me you get this principle at least and then tell me you don't want to do it for whatever reason you can come up with.

DEV's are missing a golden opportunity to rework the coin and make it into a powerhouse. 

Great choose lets get this done ASAP. 

The SolarCoin Foundation has decided to implement POS Time over POS Velocity.

In a way both systems are trying to address the same concerns, improve stake activity and better protect the consensus.
-PoSV increases probability to stake more slowly than PoS
-PoST over time decreases probability to stake.

With POST, if you don't stake often enough you not only have a decreased probability to stake, when you do, you lose matured interest earned. You also lose the ability to have a say in the consensus more over time for not supporting the network. In PoST, the trust score diminishes with lack of activity. In PoSV, it just rises slower.

-PoSV has a flat interest rate which will equate to an inflation rate of half the interest rate for eternity assuming half the coins are staked, which is a fair estimate
-PoST lets you decide the inflation rate you want. It could be constant or variable and the interest rate will target for it depending on how many coins are being staked at a given time.  So the less people who are staking the higher the interest payout they get as the inflation is divided among them according to their balance for protecting the network.  The inflation rate is set relative to the PoW initial supply so this way the interest is actually deflationary, like Bitcoin, where over time the percent of newly minted coins decreases.

Please not again.

With 98 Billion outstanding coins it won't matter what the rates are since the price will always plummet until these coins are claimed, just secure the blockchain. POST should work fine.

Maybe you should reconsider the total amount of coins? Take the 33 Million already created and make that the cap. Then, if solar users want to claim coin they should buy it. This would show the utility of the coin. If you want to participate in a coin there must be a cost. Instead of just selling your claimed coin out perpetually. 98Billion in free claims to be sold out!

You could also make it so that anyone can claim through their solar panels and use the claim coin to POST with. This way they can not spend their claim coin, have it locked down so that all they can do is secure the blockchain and get paid interest for it. If you don't take this idea to Vericoin and have them implement a system to do this with, your coin will stagnate forever.

You have the base of SLR COIN created by POW. So now the market will dictate the claims. The claim can be written into the blockchain and create a POS structured weight from the coins inside that wallet. So if the Claimer has 25MWH of claims they now have a larger POST to work with and have an edge over the other 33Million coins. If the 25MWH claim buys 10,000 SLR they now Boost their Coin Weight on the network and incur a larger POST principle to secure on the network.

This is the only way to utilize the coin properly. You will always have people dumping coin if you don't. Creating a claim to base POST from will make it so that you also now have demand for your actual SLR COIN since claimers will need to buy to generate a worthwhile POST value. This also means you can have every solar claim that could ever possibly be made link to your coin. It gives you an effective 98Billion without deriding the network and the COIN price.

I think you will see the Light shining brightly on your Solar Panels with this idea now, and if you don't it just means you like trying to earn money from your solar panel at Night.

Actually this idea self perpetuates SLR now too. Watch what happens to the price when your Claimers can not sell their claims and must buy to earn POST. It is standard supply and demand.

Hope this idea helps restructure the coin into a success. I would also be interested in the coin if these ideas were taken into effect, until then any Band-aid in POST vs POSV won't help the coin prosper.

POST sounds better then POSV.  I will let more technical people weigh in. My main concern is to move on asap.