Topic: [ANN][XCP] Counterparty - Pioneering Peer-to-Peer Finance - Official Thread - page 372. (Read 1276826 times)

This deserves further explanation without the meme.

Every Counterparty message is a financial transaction. From Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financial_transaction:

A financial transaction is an agreement, communication, or movement carried out between a buyer and a seller to exchange an asset for payment.

If it is unclear that any of the messages in Counterparty does not constitute a financial transaction, I would be happy to explain.

The message that may be the most vague is the "broadcast" so I will explain it here. The "broadcast" is a communication of pricing information from a tertiary party that is used for resolution of bets and CFDs in Counterparty.

Pricing information that is recorded in an immutable ledger is essential. During the global financial crisis, the regulatory agencies called up every counter party to Lehman Brothers. Every trade with Lehman Brothers had to be revealed and the market data used to price the deal was required to reconstruct the pricing of the trade.

If this does pose such a dilemma, would it be trivial to jump to a new chain like Devcoin, that uses the same addresses as Bitcoin? I imagine the utility of XCP and others like MSC would be sufficient that there was merge mining enough to support it and that would release any perceived stress on BTC and still allow any interaction with BTC that was needed. Doing so would engage a new audience of miners too, which might be a boon.

The core devs' views seem at odds with the founder's — Opposite ends of the spectrum even. Not only was Satoshi advocating the use of Bitcoin's blockchain to store data, he wanted it cheaper! How about them apples ?

(Quote in reference to BitDNS.)

Edit: I understand that Counterparty stores data in the chain in such a way that was not meant to be used. Have you seen how quickly the developers of this initiative have moved forward ? Do you appreciate the movement of 2.0 projects ? Let's stop arguing about the technicalities for just a moment; Let's talk about "where do we go from here," with this innovative project ? Can we work together to come up with a solution ? Because to be quite honest; it seems as though the core developers have found a nest of mice in the attic and want to exterminate and carry on business as usual. Do I so boldly surmise that the Mastercoin team has a hand in this sabotage ? Mastercoin has to store its transactions in the Bitcoin blockchain too. Are they going to be wiped out as well ?

 我是觉得未开比特币还真的可能没落，也许要发生黑天鹅事件，一直冥冥中觉的，就像当年的网景
嗯 ALTCOIN中应该出黑马 我一直都这么认为 自从玩比特
就像英伟达替代3D巫毒一样
XCP如果能迁移 未必不是好事
焉知非福
说不定能拯救一大批握有XCP的人
 就像当年一个阻止了花园IPO的  虽然那人本意非解救众生
结果 也拯救了一大批想买入花园矿机IPO的比特持有者
而且重新建链也可以考虑啊，最重要的是分布式交易的理念
求高手翻译一下，也算提提意见，集思广益，一个意见也做参考一下嘛

You're talking as if there are only two options...
But feel free to test any combination of implementations! That's what testnet is for...

It seems to me that stress testing proof of concepts would go far in settling the issue -- let's get some real data to see whether CheckMultiSig or OP_RETURN (40 or 80 byte) causes more problems.

Hi Jeff, Bitcoin developers (who may wish to join in or read this discussion) and Luke,

Thanks for taking the time to stop by the thread.

I'm an active community member here in Counterparty. I come from an finance background in IT systems development and I wanted to explain in my opinion in a business context on why Counterparty is a "good thing" for Bitcoin. There are tangible positive benefits to Bitcoin for the 80 btyte footprint that Counterparty is requesting. Two factors that will bring increased adoption for Bitcoin is utility and liquidity. These two factors are current barriers for sophisticated and institutional investors in Bitcoin.

a) Utility - The lack of derivatives and the ability to properly hedge one's position against volatility is a barrier to Bitcoin adoption. Building these instruments directly on the blockchain lowers the friction of adoption of these instruments and will bring direct liquidity to Bitcoin (see next point).

b) Liquidity -Illiquidity of the Bitcoin markets contributes to the volatility of the value of Bitcoin as an asset. Furthermore, institutional and large investors are wary of holding assets that they cannot liquidate without affecting the underlying value. Inflows and outflows into the instruments and assets held in Counterparty will most likely flow through the native economy on which they are based - Bitcoin.

The effect of the above two points cannot be understated. It has the potential to motivate a large number of bystanders to participate in Bitcoin. By working with meta-applications such as Counterparty, Bitcoin's value within the financial system can gain traction whilst at the same time Bitcoin may continue to develop independently.

Counterparty wishes to increase the value of the Bitcoin network by sending financial transactional data. I understand that Bitcoin will be moving to floating fees and the size of OP_RETURN(s) could certainly be taken into consideration. Nodes can also immediately prune OP_RETURN thus lowering the burden of Counterparty on participating full nodes.

Counterparty isn't asking for special treatment. We wish to be good caretakers of the underlying network on which we are reliant.

Regards,

+1
This seems to be the best option right now, for the Counterparty devs and Bitcoin devs to engage via private channels.
The back and forth on the threads will not contribute to a productive dialog.

No thanks. Funny thing is, you complain about the people weighing in on matters they don't understand and you aren't much different. I'm glad you dumped all your XCP though since you clearly no longer believe in the project.

can we tell that xcp now will lame?

PM each other for communication is more suitable for this stage.

We don't want to use CheckMultiSig either. We want to use OP_RETURN, and with at least 80 bytes instead of the 40 we already have.

Even if cityglut told me to stop posting, I can't just sit down while watching XCP falling apart.

Having 200 non technical people trying to protect their 2 burnt BTC insulting the BTC devs and adding their irrelevant 2 cents is the way to go, definitely.

Back to reality, no one from the core devs has been consulted, and they can get rid of the 'XCP parasite' in one commit if they want.

It was an interesting project, with talented devs, but the greed and overall retardness of the so called 'community' on top of the terrible lack of communication in general was the last nail in the coffin.

Time to dump until the news spreads, and move to something else. Thanks for the five folds profit. Hopefully Ether or whatever will make things right, control their community, and have a clear communication with all people involved.

Nobody is "killing innovation."  There is plenty of room to extend bitcoin's protocol, if that is what people want to do.

There is just one particular method, CheckMultiSig, that has multiple disadvantages.

I am trying to get BoottleXCP working, but I am stuck at block 281034. And it was a pain to even get there, as I had to restart the client after every 20-30 blocks.
Anyone made the same experience?

I can't believe that whole discussion completely missed the actual technical reason not to want bare OP_CHECKMULTISIG txouts, which is that each CHECKMULTISIG opcode in a block is counted as 20 "sigop" instructions, and there is a 20,000 sigop limit per block. (one per 50 bytes of the 1MB hard limit) This makes OP_CHECKMULTISIG untenable for widespread use, and makes fee calculation a good deal more complex.

Not to mention that Freimarkets is insecure because it has hardly any miners... which in turn means why on earth would you use it instead of Mastercoin/Counterparty/Colored Coins? Your assets on it are just one 51% attack away from becoming worthless, and again, there is precedent to this happening before with how Coiledcoin was attacked by Eligius.

I am just sharing some IRC #bitcoin-dev chat logs here for further context on the perspective of bare multisig & Counterparty

http://bitcoinstats.com/irc/bitcoin-dev/logs/2014/03/21#l1395378649


And here:
http://bitcoinstats.com/irc/bitcoin-dev/logs/2014/03/21#l1395416477


If you are not on this IRC channel, I invite you to join and listen or constructively participate.

Where is the Freimarkets project right now? Nowhere.

Our development costs are very low, and our development speed is very high. That matters. It's why Linux has a market share many, many times that of GNU Hurd.