Topic: [ANN][XCP] Counterparty - Pioneering Peer-to-Peer Finance - Official Thread - page 373. (Read 1276826 times)
March 21, 2014, 06:22:37 PM
Ultimately I believe something positive will come from all of this boat rocking.
March 21, 2014, 06:07:35 PM
It's nonconstructive nonsense to say the protocol shouldn't be used because the solution isn't as elegant as the dev's think it could be. I think Xnova has already responded on this point adequately.
The blockchain itself would be most benefited by the use of OP_RETURN here, but it seems to me at least that there is a disconnect in the logic of why the size was halved among some, pointing to theoretical reasons as justification on why that would be a good idea instead of the *actual real world current uses*. While the optimal solution in your mind for Counterparty and others may be to move to their own side chains and store hashes in the Bitcoin blockchain using OP_RETURN, you have to understand that doing so is highly complex, rife with potential security issues, and that the only evidence supporting this is (as far as I know) essentially a theoretical-type thread on the Bitcoin developers mailing list. This would be a bit like me telling the Bitcoin devs that Bitcoin should move to using GHOST (https://eprint.iacr.org/2013/881.pdf) immediately as it's technically the optimal solution over the longer block times today. While the latter could be argued to be the case, it is a proposal that has not been fully vetted in the real world, and would introduce major protocol-level changes that could cause potential security and usability problems.
March 21, 2014, 06:01:43 PM
Guys lets keep this discussion constructive.
March 21, 2014, 05:47:42 PM
Based on a quick readover of https://github.com/PhantomPhreak/Counterparty, it looks like Counterparty wants to be Freimarkets, except Counterparty is built on top of bitcoin bad practices (eg, key reuse, "from addresses", etc) and a not-properly-softforked P2SH-like use of the blockchain's Script, rather than a merged-mined side-chain like this kind of thing should be...
https://i.imgur.com/ry3zrhg.png March 21, 2014, 05:46:05 PM
It's important to keep this on track and encourage an open discussion from both sides.
I think most of the 'core' bitcoin user have a fairly purist outlook. opinions which seem pretty set in stone with regards to anything expanding directly on bitcoin blockchain itself
I do think it's important to have discussion though. look at recent news. hundreds of millions of $ down the drain at gox.. for what!! . for trusting a centralised service with private keys. If we had such solutions as counterparty we might well have avoided some of the recent disasters which surely had a tremendous negative effect on bitcoin. I can't understand why services such as this which put the control and power back in users hands are not being embraced in open arms by the larger community, especially those that have been around for a long time and seen a sickening amount of hacks, closures, thefts. Recently all there seems is bullshit copy-pastes, pump and dumps and. just total shit scum. This is first concept I've seen in long time where there seems to be a genuine need for- and it's not just another 'whitepaper' or proposal with no code behind it. The team has gone forward and created a working marketplace. it seems like the next step- decentralised solution to centralised problems, yet it seems to be getting barrage of criticism, with alternative solutions proposed not really all that reasonable at all
I'm so sick to death of hearing the words, 'exchange hacked' 'suspending operation' 'site down for maintenence' 'hot-wallet breached' bla bla bla. Some people will give answers such as 'easy solution, don't send any btc to exchanges' but it's not really a solution at all. we have a creation here which can help- users can trade assets in & out without being forced to send passport scans to withdraw their own fucking bitcoin that will later be 'leaked by hackers' and sold on the blackmarket. all that after the first kick in the balls of their funds actually going missing completely, users can create bets. no more sending money to bitbet and hoping popescu and co doesn't hold funds hostage on some fine-print, users can buy and sell shares in security without waking up to find the share value has plunged because SEC forced closure of exchange for unregulated securities etc and site-owner can't open mouth on gag order for 12months.. the list goes on, I don't know why this isn't a top-priority for some of the best minds to work on
March 21, 2014, 05:41:54 PM
Based on a quick readover of https://github.com/PhantomPhreak/Counterparty, it looks like Counterparty wants to be Freimarkets, except Counterparty is built on top of bitcoin bad practices (eg, key reuse, "from addresses", etc) and a not-properly-softforked P2SH-like use of the blockchain's Script, rather than a merged-mined side-chain like this kind of thing should be...
March 21, 2014, 05:37:45 PM
Are the Bitcoins devs simply worried about how to manage later Blockchain size?.. Counterparty or not.. Size matters? If that fundamental hasn't been resolved for Bitcoin on its own, then perhaps those devs are naturally worried about accepting anything more which would compound that problem in future?
It's more complicated than that, because transactions, and particular parts of transactions, have to be processed, relayed, etc., in addition to being stored. They can also sometimes be pruned, depending on how they are constructed.
March 21, 2014, 05:37:28 PM
Just as an aside, as many of you know I'm getting ready to churn out a couple renditions of a teaser/trailer/commercial which conveys the vision of Counterparty. I believe someone has PM'ed me already concerning a phone/chat consultation to spak more in-depth on the protocol. I would like to get that done tonight if possible, is anyone going to be around for that ? Matt Y, Led_Lcd ? Someone preferably with technical knowledge specific to counterparty, at least enough technical knowledge to be able to convey to me somewhat of a roadmap of what will likely take place over the next several months and what is possible with such a protocol, possibly extending the vision out to things that maybe have not been discussed or thought of yet. Please let me know via PM asap. Thank you guys!
March 21, 2014, 05:31:05 PM
It's important to keep this on track and encourage an open discussion from both sides.
+1, I agree, we need to come to a final conclusion that satisfies all parties involved.
We are all here for the success of that which is decentraized currency.
Counterparty is an interesting innovation, having a biomedical background, the counterparty protocol makes alot of sense to me and seems like a logical next step in the grand scheme of things.
Please take this as an opportunity to work together in doing what is right for the evolution of bitcoin.
March 21, 2014, 05:29:13 PM
Are the Bitcoins devs simply worried about how to manage later Blockchain size?.. Counterparty or not.. Size matters? If that fundamental hasn't been resolved for Bitcoin on its own, then perhaps those devs are naturally worried about accepting anything more which would compound that problem in future?
March 21, 2014, 05:17:26 PM
It's important to keep this on track and encourage an open discussion from both sides.
March 21, 2014, 04:36:06 PM
It's abuse because you're forcing others to download/store your data against their free choice.
Funny to see this line of reasoning from the guy who defended putting religious messages in the blockchain.
:-)) ok! i understand now!!
It makes perfect sense: censorship, circular reasoning ..
March 21, 2014, 04:24:00 PM
Quote
I didn't say there exist non-appropriate financial transactions.
So what is your problem with Counterparty, which is designed to carry financial transactions (but, in the mode of all such inventions, could be used for other stuff as well)?Counterparty said it had a problem with what I and others consider to be reasonable limits, without explaining why (from what I've seen so far).
The 40 byte limit is very much arbitrary, and both Bitcoin and Counterparty would benefit if it were raised back to 80 bytes, because then we could store Counterparty transaction data more easily, elegantly and cleanly in the Bitcoin blockchain than we are doing now. 40 bytes is not just enough for our (legitimate!) use case. Of course, 80 bytes, too, is arbitrary, and the best solution is just to scale the fee with the amount of data so that the incentives all line up.
Reminder: transaction fees do not pay for transactions, merely attempt to deter/rate limit flooding. To cover the cost of transactions, transaction fees would need to be much higher and somehow distributed across all full nodes (not merely miners).
I don't think that a BIP for this change is strictly necessary, given that there was none for the proposals to allow 80-byte OP_RETURN, or for the later change to 40-byte OP_RETURN.
A larger OP_RETURN space would allow it to support all extant Counterparty message types. We really need 80 bytes minimum, as the protocol was designed around that value.
March 21, 2014, 03:45:24 PM
Quote
I didn't say there exist non-appropriate financial transactions.
So what is your problem with Counterparty, which is designed to carry financial transactions (but, in the mode of all such inventions, could be used for other stuff as well)?Counterparty said it had a problem with what I and others consider to be reasonable limits, without explaining why (from what I've seen so far).
The 40 byte limit is very much arbitrary, and both Bitcoin and Counterparty would benefit if it were raised back to 80 bytes, because then we could store Counterparty transaction data more easily, elegantly and cleanly in the Bitcoin blockchain than we are doing now. 40 bytes is not just enough for our (legitimate!) use case. Of course, 80 bytes, too, is arbitrary, and the best solution is just to scale the fee with the amount of data so that the incentives all line up.
Reminder: transaction fees do not pay for transactions, merely attempt to deter/rate limit flooding. To cover the cost of transactions, transaction fees would need to be much higher and somehow distributed across all full nodes (not merely miners).
March 21, 2014, 03:45:01 PM
Quote
I didn't say there exist non-appropriate financial transactions.
So what is your problem with Counterparty, which is designed to carry financial transactions (but, in the mode of all such inventions, could be used for other stuff as well)?Counterparty said it had a problem with what I and others consider to be reasonable limits, without explaining why (from what I've seen so far).
The 40 byte limit is very much arbitrary, and both Bitcoin and Counterparty would benefit if it were raised back to 80 bytes, because then we could store Counterparty transaction data more easily, elegantly and cleanly in the Bitcoin blockchain than we are doing now. 40 bytes is not just enough for our (legitimate!) use case. Of course, 80 bytes, too, is arbitrary, and the best solution is just to scale the fee with the amount of data so that the incentives all line up.
March 21, 2014, 03:25:44 PM
Quote
I didn't say there exist non-appropriate financial transactions.
So what is your problem with Counterparty, which is designed to carry financial transactions (but, in the mode of all such inventions, could be used for other stuff as well)?Counterparty said it had a problem with what I and others consider to be reasonable limits, without explaining why (from what I've seen so far).
The 40 byte limit is very much arbitrary, and both Bitcoin and Counterparty would benefit if it were raised back to 80 bytes, because then we could store Counterparty transaction data more easily, elegantly and cleanly in the Bitcoin blockchain than we are doing now. 40 bytes is not just enough for our (legitimate!) use case. Of course, 80 bytes, too, is arbitrary, and the best solution is just to scale the fee with the amount of data so that the incentives all line up.
March 21, 2014, 03:22:05 PM
All data storage attempts, even the OP_RETURN stuff, are technically abuses the protocol was never intended for.
Many of the greatest developments in computing history (and indeed, human technological history on the whole) are the result of people finding uses for things which were unintended by their inventors. Good thing that most inventors are not so protective of their inventions that they decline to let others use it for new things. Those that did, found themselves surpassed quickly.
Quote
You only need to find one person who did not agree to data storage, for it to be non-consensual.
For the sake of avoiding wasting time on a survey, I will just decline to consent to data storage myself.
For the sake of avoiding wasting time on a survey, I will just decline to consent to data storage myself.
Then you should delete the entire blockchain from any nodes that you have running right now, because there is arbitrary, non-financial-transaction data being stored in it already. LOTS of it
yes, an example
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.1980099
and who consents to this?, I certainly don't, doubt anyone else does either. I use SPV client so there is my choice.
and this;
Quote
no response to that last question.
Quote
Quote from: Sukrim on August 20, 2011, 10:46:10 PM
Can we have links to a few blocks of Eligius to see this ourselves?
Can we have links to a few blocks of Eligius to see this ourselves?
Output of "strings -n 20 .bitcoin/blk0001.dat":
Code:
EThe Times 03/Jan/2009 Chancellor on brink of second bailout for banks
z+o>z+o>z+o>z+o>z+o>
z+o>z+o>z+o>z+o>z+o>
z+o>z+o>z+o>z+o>z+o>
z+o>z+o>z+o>z+o>z+o>
z+o>z+o>z+o>z+o>z+o>
z+o>z+o>z+o>z+o>z+o>
=ybegin line=128 siz
e=8776 name=bitcoin.
***2*.+D*/***+***h+E
*/***+***p+R*-***+*,
**+[*,***;***x******
0010/211133246>76556
C<=}9>GDIHGDFFJNXQJL
VMFFRaSVZ[^^^IQcgb\f
KFK\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
+/++++++********+,-.
DPQRST_`abcdmnopqrst
*>{o*>{o*>{o*>{o*>{o
---BEGIN TRIBUTE---
#./BitLen
:::::::::::::::::::
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=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
LEN "rabbi" SASSAMA
1980-2011
Len was our friend.
A brilliant mind,
a kind soul, and
a devious schemer;
husband to Meredith
brother to Calvin,
son to Jim and
Dana Hartshorn,
coauthor and
cofounder and
Shmoo and so much
more. We dedicate
this silly hack to
Len, who would have
found it absolutely
hilarious.
--Dan Kaminsky,
Travis Goodspeed
P.S. My apologies,
BitCoin people. He
also would have
LOL'd at BitCoin's
new dependency upon
ASCII BERNANKE
:'::.:::::.:::.::.:
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----END TRIBUTE----
Eligius/Benedictus Deus. Benedictum Nomen Sanctum eius.
Eligius/Benedictus Deus. Benedictum Nomen Sanctum eius.
***************************************************
Benedictus Iesus Christus, verus Deus et verus homo.
Benedictum Nomen Iesu.
I LIKE TURTLES
Benedictum Cor eius sacratissimum.
Benedictus Sanguis eius pretiosissimus.
Benedictus Iesus in sanctissimo altaris Sacramento.
Benedictus Sanctus Spiritus, Paraclitus.
C-C-C-COMBO BREAKER
Benedictus Sanctus Spiritus, Paraclitus.
Benedicta excelsa Mater Dei, Maria sanctissima.
Benedicta sancta eius et immaculata Conceptio.
Benedicta sancta eius et immaculata Conceptio.
Benedicta eius gloriosa Assumptio.
Benedictum nomen Mariae, Virginis et Matris.
Benedictum nomen Mariae, Virginis et Matris.
Benedictus sanctus Ioseph, eius castissimus Sponsus.
Benedictus Deus in Angelis suis, et in Sanctis suis. Amen.
In nomine Patris et Filii et Spiritus Sancti. Amen.
O my God, I am heartily sorry for having offended Thee and I detest all my sins...
O my God, I am heartily sorry for having offended Thee and I detest all my sins...
Eye'm the strongest!
...because of Thy just punishments, but most of all because they offend Thee, ...
...my God, who art all good and deserving of all my love.
I firmly resolve, with the help of Thy grace, to sin no more...
I firmly resolve, with the help of Thy grace, to sin no more...
...and avoid the near occasions of sin. Amen.
O my God! I firmly believe that Thou art one God in three Divine persons, ...
O my God! I firmly believe that Thou art one God in three Divine persons, ...
...Father, Son, and Holy Ghost; I believe that Thy Divine Son became man, ...
...and died for our sins, and that he will come to, judge the living and the dead.
I believe these and all the truths which the Holy Catholic Church teaches, ...
...because Thou hast revealed them, who canst neither deceive nor be deceived.
O my God! relying on Thy infinite goodness and promises, ...
...I hope to obtain pardon of my sins, the help of Thy grace, ...
...and life everlasting, through the merits of Jesus Christ, my Lord and Redeemer.
...and life everlasting, through the merits of Jesus Christ, my Lord and Redeemer.
O my God! I love Thee above all things, with my whole heart and soul, ...
...because Thou art all-good and worthy of all love.
...because Thou art all-good and worthy of all love.
Yukkuri Shiteitte ne
I love my neighbor as myself for the love of Thee.
I forgive all who have injured me, and ask pardon of all whom I have injured.
I forgive all who have injured me, and ask pardon of all whom I have injured.
I forgive all who have injured me, and ask pardon of all whom I have injured.
O my Jesus, forgive us our sins, save us from the fires of Hell, ...
...lead all souls to Heaven, especially those in most need of Thy mercy.
I confess to Almighty God, to blessed Mary ever Virgin, ...
... to blessed Michael the Archangel, to blessed John the Baptist, ...
... to the holy Apostles Peter and Paul, and to all the Saints, ...
... that I have sinned exceedingly, in thought, word, and deed, ...
... through my fault, through my fault, through my most grievous fault.
Therefore I beseech blessed Mary ever Virgin, blessed Michael the Archangel, ...
... blessed John the Baptist, the holy Apostles Peter and Paul, ...
... and all the Saints to pray to the Lord our God for me. Amen.
St. Michael the Archangel, defend us in battle; be our safeguard against ...
St. Michael the Archangel, defend us in battle; be our safeguard against ...
... the wickedness and snares of the Devil. May God rebuke him, ...
... we humbly pray, and do Thou, O Prince of the Heavenly Host, ...
... we humbly pray, and do Thou, O Prince of the Heavenly Host, ...
... we humbly pray, and do Thou, O Prince of the Heavenly Host, ...
... we humbly pray, and do Thou, O Prince of the Heavenly Host, ...
... by the power of God, cast into Hell, Satan and all the other evil spirits, ...
... who wander throughout the world, seeking the ruin of souls. Amen.
Angel of God, my guardian dear, to whom His love commits me here, ...
... ever this night be at my side, to light and guard, to rule and guide. Amen.
Ave Maria, gratia plena, Dominus tecum. Benedicta tu in mulieribus, ...
... et benedictus fructus ventris tui, Iesus. Sancta Maria, Mater Dei, ...
... et benedictus fructus ventris tui, Iesus. Sancta Maria, Mater Dei, ...
... et benedictus fructus ventris tui, Iesus. Sancta Maria, Mater Dei, ...
... ora pro nobis peccatoribus, nunc, et in hora mortis nostrae. Amen.
Salve, Regina, mater misericordiae: vita, dulcedo, et spes nostra, salve.
Ad te clamamus exsules filii Hevae. Ad te suspiramus, gementes et flentes ...
Ad te clamamus exsules filii Hevae. Ad te suspiramus, gementes et flentes ...
... in hac lacrimarum valle. Eia, ergo, advocata nostra, illos tuos ...
... misericordes oculos ad nos converte. Et Iesum, benedictum fructum ...
... ventris tui, nobis post hoc exsilium ostende. O clemens, O pia, ...
... O dulcis Virgo Maria. Ora pro nobis, sancta Dei Genetrix.
kLhLUKE-JR IS A PEDOPHILE! Oh, and god isn't real, sucka. Stop polluting the blockchain with your nonsense.
Ut digni efficiamur promissionibus Christi. Amen.
Pater noster, qui es in caelis, sanctificetur Nomen tuum. Adveniat regnum tuum.
Pater noster, qui es in caelis, sanctificetur Nomen tuum. Adveniat regnum tuum.
Fiat voluntas tua, sicut in caelo et in terra. Panem nostrum quotidianum ...
... da nobis hodie, et dimitte nobis debita nostra sicut et nos dimittimus ...
... debitoribus nostris. Et ne nos inducas in tentationem, sed libera nos a malo.
Domine Iesu Christe, Filius Dei, miserere me peccatorem!
Sanae is a good girl
We adore Thee, O Christ, and we bless Thee;
We adore Thee, O Christ, and we bless Thee;
because by Thy holy Cross Thou hast redeemed the world.
May the Holy Trinity be blessed.
really? really...come on..
March 21, 2014, 03:12:54 PM
I'm not the one trying to change the protocol here... the current protocol does not support data storage.
The blockchain is a data store.
March 21, 2014, 03:09:46 PM
Quote
I didn't say there exist non-appropriate financial transactions.
So what is your problem with Counterparty, which is designed to carry financial transactions (but, in the mode of all such inventions, could be used for other stuff as well)?Counterparty said it had a problem with what I and others consider to be reasonable limits, without explaining why (from what I've seen so far).
March 21, 2014, 03:07:53 PM
Counterparty was originally designed to use the OP_RETURN output to store all of its message data, which I feel is very elegant, and leaves a minimal impact on the blockchain.
Message data does not belong in the blockchain, only financial transactions.If by "message data" you mean something that is in fact financial transaction itself, then please write a draft BIP explaining why you think more than 40 bytes OP_RETURN space is needed.
We planned all of our message formats around the 80 byte limit announced by Gavin on the official Bitcoin blog.
There is no official Bitcoin blog, or official Bitcoin anything.Gavin does not speak for Bitcoin. Jeff does not speak for Bitcoin. I do not speak for Bitcoin.
We only use multi-sig outputs because we have no other choice. We don't want to extend the Bitcoin protocol. We want to do something entirely within it, and as simply and directly as possible, for the benefits to stability, security etc..
The Bitcoin protocol, today, does not support data storage, nor what (I presume) Counterparty wants to do (otherwise it would just be Bitcoin, not Counterparty!).So, if you want to do more than what that Bitcoin protocol does, you must extend Bitcoin.
That extending should be done in a rational, open manner, using the BIP process.
I'm just going to ignore the trolls who demand that because they want to change Bitcoin, I must stop using it.
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