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Topic: [ANN][XCP] Counterparty - Pioneering Peer-to-Peer Finance - Official Thread - page 540. (Read 1276928 times)

sr. member
Activity: 476
Merit: 300
Counterparty Chief Scientist and Co-Founder
Can we already make CFD?

I am thinking that the possibility of shorting altcoins would be very interesting!

I think there is huge demand which is not fullfill by the market right know and that could be the killer app of the protocol.

Yes CFDs are currently implemented.

Would you like to test them out? The test Super Bowl bet between me and jimhsu patched a few bugs. If someone comes up with interesting terms for a short-term bet, I'm up for taking the other side.

I think probably the killer use case for CFDs is being able to short XCP/USD. This would essentially allow you to keep your wealth in XCP but have no exposure to XCP price fluctuations.
Sorry I can't, I haven't install counterpartyd yet, I am waiting the GUI.

I don't think a lot of people will be ready to keep their wealth in XCP, but for those who want to keep it in BTC (which makes quite a lot of people) be able to short BTC/USD would be indeed a revolutionary perspective.

The problem with shorting BTC/USD though is that you can only bet using XCP. So you are left with XCP/BTC exposure.

You can bet on the price of BTC/USD, and if you do nothing else, then you'll also have exposure to the price of XCP. However, with a second bet, or a different first bet, a fall in that too can be hedged against.
sr. member
Activity: 476
Merit: 300
Counterparty Chief Scientist and Co-Founder
Where do you get $1 in fees from?

Seller posts order: Cost = 0.0001 BTC
Buyer matches order: Cost = 0.0001 BTC + whatever the fee required to match is
Buyer sends BTCPay: Cost = 0.0001 BTC

Yes. Depending on the type of transaction, a Counterparty transaction should cost between .0001 and .0004 BTC.
It should cost 0, the burn was a little strange requiring 0.0001 BTC Transaction fee and it just gets worse now in the system with all these so far unexplained fees

Each bitcoin transaction requires a 0.0001 BTC fee paid to the mining network. Perhaps you have been using an online wallet such as Coinbase that pays these fees for you so you don't see them?

The 0.0001086 BTC values in XCP transactions are put into a 1 of M Multisig escrow which you are theoretically able to spend. Currently I'm not sure which, if any, wallet clients support spending of Multisig outputs, but if you really wanted to you could craft a raw transaction to spend them today (not recommended)

Hopefully counterpartyd will support spending of these outputs natively at some point.

Here is more detail: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=287063.20

So basically:
1) No, your 0.0001086 bitcoins are not gone.
2) No client currently offers the ability to spend them. Multisig is still a fairly new idea. One might in the future.

This is worth emphasizing.

Also worth emphasizing is that it is quite likely that no blockchain-based technology will ever be used for HFT or for trades of a very small size... it's simply not very efficient to send every message everywhere.
sr. member
Activity: 472
Merit: 250
Never spend your money before you have it.
Each bitcoin transaction requires a 0.0001 BTC fee paid to the mining network.
wrong:
https://blockchain.info/block-index/465919/00000000000000006e1a275bff2757913c4513c7e361ccb19ee6f2734ba1e8f1
click advanced at bottom, and starting at bottom of page you will see MANY bitcoin transactions with NO FEE, AKA 0 FEE.
The 0.0001086 BTC values in XCP transactions are put into a 1 of M Multisig escrow which you are theoretically able to spend. Currently I'm not sure which, if any, wallet clients support spending of Multisig outputs, but if you really wanted to you could craft a raw transaction to spend them today (not recommended)
Hopefully counterpartyd will support spending of these outputs natively at some point.
Currently they are spent and at some point in the future, it is theoretical that we may get them back.
On my balance statement I can only mark it as an expense for now.
sr. member
Activity: 364
Merit: 264
Where do you get $1 in fees from?

Seller posts order: Cost = 0.0001 BTC
Buyer matches order: Cost = 0.0001 BTC + whatever the fee required to match is
Buyer sends BTCPay: Cost = 0.0001 BTC

Yes. Depending on the type of transaction, a Counterparty transaction should cost between .0001 and .0004 BTC.
It should cost 0, the burn was a little strange requiring 0.0001 BTC Transaction fee and it just gets worse now in the system with all these so far unexplained fees

Each bitcoin transaction requires a 0.0001 BTC fee paid to the mining network. Perhaps you have been using an online wallet such as Coinbase that pays these fees for you so you don't see them?

The 0.0001086 BTC values in XCP transactions are put into a 1 of M Multisig escrow which you are theoretically able to spend. Currently I'm not sure which, if any, wallet clients support spending of Multisig outputs, but if you really wanted to you could craft a raw transaction to spend them today (not recommended)

Hopefully counterpartyd will support spending of these outputs natively at some point.

Here is more detail: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=287063.20

So basically:
1) No, your 0.0001086 bitcoins are not gone.
2) No client currently offers the ability to spend them. Multisig is still a fairly new idea. One might in the future.
sr. member
Activity: 476
Merit: 300
Counterparty Chief Scientist and Co-Founder
Um.. I think a troll ate the order book:

http://blockscan.com/order.aspx?q=3336

I hereby submit a bug: Orders for BTC should check balance of address before submission.

If you don't want your orders to sell XCP for BTC to get eaten, then you need to set a higher fee_required. Note that only orders to buy BTC have this issue, and there's no way around it that I can think of.

The problem with that, besides the fact that it kind of misses the point, is that Bitcoind cannot look up the balance of an arbitrary address.
legendary
Activity: 882
Merit: 1000
Where do you get $1 in fees from?

Seller posts order: Cost = 0.0001 BTC
Buyer matches order: Cost = 0.0001 BTC + whatever the fee required to match is
Buyer sends BTCPay: Cost = 0.0001 BTC

Yes. Depending on the type of transaction, a Counterparty transaction should cost between .0001 and .0004 BTC.
It should cost 0, the burn was a little strange requiring 0.0001 BTC Transaction fee and it just gets worse now in the system with all these so far unexplained fees
Those are all anti dust trades requirement. Zero cost means your transaction will never be included in a block. Fees will be  lower once op-return is supported. Multisig used now costs more.
sr. member
Activity: 364
Merit: 264
Where do you get $1 in fees from?

Seller posts order: Cost = 0.0001 BTC
Buyer matches order: Cost = 0.0001 BTC + whatever the fee required to match is
Buyer sends BTCPay: Cost = 0.0001 BTC

Yes. Depending on the type of transaction, a Counterparty transaction should cost between .0001 and .0004 BTC.
It should cost 0, the burn was a little strange requiring 0.0001 BTC Transaction fee and it just gets worse now in the system with all these so far unexplained fees

The ultimate objective is to transition to OP_RETURN (which works already on testnet) when Bitcoin 0.9 comes around, so this this "dust" no longer remains.
sr. member
Activity: 472
Merit: 250
Never spend your money before you have it.
Where do you get $1 in fees from?

Seller posts order: Cost = 0.0001 BTC
Buyer matches order: Cost = 0.0001 BTC + whatever the fee required to match is
Buyer sends BTCPay: Cost = 0.0001 BTC

Yes. Depending on the type of transaction, a Counterparty transaction should cost between .0001 and .0004 BTC.
It should cost 0, the burn was a little strange requiring 0.0001 BTC Transaction fee and it just gets worse now in the system with all these so far unexplained fees
sr. member
Activity: 472
Merit: 250
Never spend your money before you have it.
Where do you get $1 in fees from?

Seller posts order: Cost = 0.0001 BTC
Buyer matches order: Cost = 0.0001 BTC + whatever the fee required to match is
Buyer sends BTCPay: Cost = 0.0001 BTC

Please link to the blockchain transaction to support each of those:
for the most recent transactions:
XCP offered:
https://blockchain.info/tx/b844cf1b76237b48bb156c14ad9145c073ec812ab6388a8d33a2d296cbafc83d
EXTRA FEES COST: 0.0003172 BTC ~$0.3

BTC offered:
https://blockchain.info/tx/5ab38cd0b172d3d93e5f8d5cde3f3222ec45818e8bf9d4c3550c30be7844c12b
EXTRA FEES COST: 0.0003172 BTC ~$0.3

BTCpay:
https://blockchain.info/tx/f0cb991676f41fb3e71bdf568ee298e677f97a70b046d557d2674f52cef41419
EXTRA FEES COST: 0.0004258 BTC ~$0.4

total fees for BTC/XCP DEX trade ~$1
full member
Activity: 216
Merit: 100
Where do you get $1 in fees from?

Seller posts order: Cost = 0.0001 BTC
Buyer matches order: Cost = 0.0001 BTC + whatever the fee required to match is
Buyer sends BTCPay: Cost = 0.0001 BTC

Yes. Depending on the type of transaction, a Counterparty transaction should cost between .0001 and .0004 BTC.
sr. member
Activity: 472
Merit: 250
Never spend your money before you have it.
To the Dev/s:
The following counterpartyd protocol/CLI issues should be resolved:
1) Paying a 0.0001 BTC fee can wipe order -
FIX:
a) XCP for BTC offer should include an option/variable to limit block period for a matching order lock (lockperiod) and a failure to BTCpay in such time period should reinstate the temporarily locked offer (instead of canceling as it currently does)
After more careful examination, it looks like it will require .000372 to wipe the order book

But, that raises a more important FLAW IN THE PROTOCOL THAT WILL PREVENT MASS ADOPTION:
Bitcoin can be transferred with no fees. Sending XCP currently costs ~0.0002+ BTC !!!!!
A BTC/XCP DEX trade costs the BTC sender 0.0007+ BTC and the XCP sender 0.0003+ BTC
That's OVER $1 US in FEES to do a SINGLE trade!
WHERE DO ALL THOSE FEES GO?
WHY ARE THERE SO MANY FEES?

2) no BTCSend support outside of BTCPay
b) Improve: Allow counterpartyd BTCsend fromaddress toaddress BTC fee(optional/can use default)
c) Improve: Allow BTCSend and XCP at same time to an address
d) BONUS: Allow BTCSend to ASSET which divides the BTC among all asset holders similar to how XCP dividend should be distribued

3) Escrowed/Multisig Bitdust is unspendable in counterpartyd.
a) fix: allow spending such dust natively in counterpartyd
WHERE DO ALL THESE FEES GO???

4) MINOR: market display updates.
a) Reorganize market CLI to display Feeds, then Bets, then Open Orders with BTC/XCP & XCP/BTC orders and Order matches awaiting BTCpay LAST in chart.
b) Update sorting open orders by asset exchange type first (XCP/BTC, etc.), then ratio second (subsorting inside the different types). i.e. force XCP/BTC BTC/XCP last in chart for easier viewing.

5) Regarding Major Program/Protocol revisions: Please don't change significant aspects of the protocol (such as asset fees) without consulting stakeholders.
Specifically In Re: Asset creation fees: Where does this new fee go? Ideally it would be either extinguished (to the burn address) or distributed among all XCP stakeholders.
Someone please link to a description of Where all these mandatory fees go?? This is crazy, there was not supposed to be MORE fees than standard BTC transactions. . . This makes it practically unusable, $1 to trade BTC/XCP on DEX!!!!

To Blockscan:
ONLY trades that have received BTCpay should be included, but it's not so important for now.

Crossposted to my own thread:
We have enabled a simple DEX trading option/platform to expand people's options and hopefully gain that market share (of allowing non-technical bitcoin holders to invest in or send XCP/DEX). This is an innovative and unique service similar to our MP/BTC trading services. Anyone with the private key for their BTC address can buy XCP/MPTSTOCK by sending BTC to our specified address (see our forum thread or website). We then spend the BTC on the DEX to buy XCP/MPTSTOCK which is sent (minus 10% commission) to the Buyer's address.
Essentially - Anyone can buy XCP/DEX Assets by sending bitcoins from their bitcoin client to our current XCP buy address (shown on both our site and our bitcointalk thread for redundancy). This will work for any client/address which the buyer has the private key for (pretty much all BTC clients except exchange accounts).
When our messenger (TC and/or FB) shows green, this service is available for rapid processing at a premium. Otherwise, our goal is to process all such transactions within 24-48 hrs. Frequency of trades will depend on volume of submitted orders.

THANKS to all the Dev's!
+1
[/quote]
sr. member
Activity: 364
Merit: 264
Um.. I think a troll ate the order book:

http://blockscan.com/order.aspx?q=3336

I hereby submit a bug: Orders for BTC should check balance of address before submission.
legendary
Activity: 882
Merit: 1000
Agree.

If marketing is a must, then please use a proper key. Something like 'welcome to test' rather than 'Issue your real asset here now.'

Moreover, as a financial software, we really need extensive unit tests, function tests and pass all tests on all platforms before releasing. In my opinion this testing position is at least as important as the marketing one.
newbie
Activity: 48
Merit: 0
Oh SHEESH


Tx    Source    Buy    Sell    Price    Expiration   F_Req   F_Prov    Remarks
3256   1Mf2abNSv7jzwsjgkrf2k3LTMyEw96Us3H   1000 XCP   1.320 BTC   0.00132 BTC/XCP   (4713|5000)   0   0.0001   Invalid: cancelled


Don't tell me my cancellation of this order did not work either, and that lost 1.320 BTC!

PhantomPhreak, can you please have a look? Now I REALLY start to get more than a little worried. We're talking about serious money now. Did the cancellation also send my btc into a black hole? Tell me it isn't so...



Those who are investing in a project should do their due diligence. We made no secret about the state of the code; if you read the "Announcement" thread, you would have seen the following disclaimer:

The code being released here is of alpha-quality and under heavy development. You should expect to encounter significant bugs when using it. It is even possible that a bug might cause you might lose some money. The Counterparty team will do everything in its power to prevent this from happening, but this technology is very new, and the implementation is not yet well-tested. In particular, we may at some point have to change the Counterparty protocol in a not backwards-compatible way, if such a change is necessary to fix a bad bug or an exploit. As always, don't invest more than you can afford to lose.

Nevertheless, we have decided to compensate users for this bug, given its peculiar nature. We are all, however, extremely busy, and so if we don't get back to you right away, rest assured it is not because we are not "sticking to our promise", but because we are, among other things, trying to make sure that fewer serious bugs pop up in the future.

Thank you for your patience.

Sure, noted, but...

The Counterparty Team is looking to pay someone to do marketing

We have been contacted by several members of the community who are interested in helping out with Counterparty's marketing. It seems to us incongruous with Counterparty's 'project principles' to choose somebody without first telling the entire community that we are looking to pay someone to do PR for Counterparty. For now, we will be paying our marketer month-to-month (in XCP and BTC). We will start considering people now, and will stop considering them within three days (i.e. by to February 9); we will make our decision within seven days (i.e. by February 13), but reserve the right to decide
any time before then.

Are you sure now is a good time to market this "alpha quality software, under heavy development"? Why not wait a bit and let the platform proof its stability first before it's invaded by hundreds or even thousands of users? I really don't get this, you're risking the entire platform. Again a bug like this with 100 times the number of users, and XCP is dead.



full member
Activity: 216
Merit: 100
CP Team,

What are the expected next stage milestones for the XCP platform and currency (by concept and appx target dates)? for example: friendly to use client, the next version of the decentralized exchange? what's more after that? can you briefly describe plans? it will also be great for the "spreading the word" aspect. Thanks



freedomfighter, if you could PM me with a list of questions, I would be happy to forward them to the devs so we can work on some answers. Thanks.
sr. member
Activity: 364
Merit: 264
Oh SHEESH


Tx    Source    Buy    Sell    Price    Expiration   F_Req   F_Prov    Remarks
3256   1Mf2abNSv7jzwsjgkrf2k3LTMyEw96Us3H   1000 XCP   1.320 BTC   0.00132 BTC/XCP   (4713|5000)   0   0.0001   Invalid: cancelled


Don't tell me my cancellation of this order did not work either, and that lost 1.320 BTC!

PhantomPhreak, can you please have a look? Now I REALLY start to get more than a little worried. We're talking about serious money now. Did the cancellation also send my btc into a black hole? Tell me it isn't so...



Those who are investing in a project should do their due diligence. We made no secret about the state of the code; if you read the "Announcement" thread, you would have seen the following disclaimer:

The code being released here is of alpha-quality and under heavy development. You should expect to encounter significant bugs when using it. It is even possible that a bug might cause you might lose some money. The Counterparty team will do everything in its power to prevent this from happening, but this technology is very new, and the implementation is not yet well-tested. In particular, we may at some point have to change the Counterparty protocol in a not backwards-compatible way, if such a change is necessary to fix a bad bug or an exploit. As always, don't invest more than you can afford to lose.

Nevertheless, we have decided to compensate users for this bug, given its peculiar natures. We are all, however, extremely busy, and so if we don't get back to you right away, rest assured it is not because we are not "sticking to our promise", but because we are, among other things, trying to make sure that fewer serious bugs pop up in the future.

Thank you for your patience.

I'm also extremely busy with real work (I work in biological research, if you are wondering), but +1
full member
Activity: 216
Merit: 100
Oh SHEESH


Tx    Source    Buy    Sell    Price    Expiration   F_Req   F_Prov    Remarks
3256   1Mf2abNSv7jzwsjgkrf2k3LTMyEw96Us3H   1000 XCP   1.320 BTC   0.00132 BTC/XCP   (4713|5000)   0   0.0001   Invalid: cancelled


Don't tell me my cancellation of this order did not work either, and that lost 1.320 BTC!

PhantomPhreak, can you please have a look? Now I REALLY start to get more than a little worried. We're talking about serious money now. Did the cancellation also send my btc into a black hole? Tell me it isn't so...



Those who are investing in a project should do their due diligence. We made no secret about the state of the code; if you read the "Announcement" thread, you would have seen the following disclaimer:

The code being released here is of alpha-quality and under heavy development. You should expect to encounter significant bugs when using it. It is even possible that a bug might cause you might lose some money. The Counterparty team will do everything in its power to prevent this from happening, but this technology is very new, and the implementation is not yet well-tested. In particular, we may at some point have to change the Counterparty protocol in a not backwards-compatible way, if such a change is necessary to fix a bad bug or an exploit. As always, don't invest more than you can afford to lose.

Nevertheless, we have decided to compensate users for this bug, given its peculiar nature. We are all, however, extremely busy, and so if we don't get back to you right away, rest assured it is not because we are not "sticking to our promise", but because we are, among other things, trying to make sure that fewer serious bugs pop up in the future.

Thank you for your patience.
sr. member
Activity: 364
Merit: 264
Oh SHEESH


Tx    Source    Buy    Sell    Price    Expiration   F_Req   F_Prov    Remarks
3256   1Mf2abNSv7jzwsjgkrf2k3LTMyEw96Us3H   1000 XCP   1.320 BTC   0.00132 BTC/XCP   (4713|5000)   0   0.0001   Invalid: cancelled


Don't tell me my cancellation of this order did not work either, and that lost 1.320 BTC!

PhantomPhreak, can you please have a look? Now I REALLY start to get more than a little worried. We're talking about serious money now. Did the cancellation also send my btc into a black hole? Tell me it isn't so...



Orders that are for XCP for BTC shouldn't reserve any BTC - you use BTCpay for that. Also I obviously don't see 1.32 BTC going out from your account.

As for reliability - these are growing pains for any alpha-quality software (as Bitcoin itself was for something like 2 years). The difference is that other devs choose to cover up the issues; the counterparty team tackles them head on. It doesn't help that 99% of coins out there are basically forks of Bitcoin and Litecoin.
legendary
Activity: 861
Merit: 1010
Can we already make CFD?

I am thinking that the possibility of shorting altcoins would be very interesting!

I think there is huge demand which is not fullfill by the market right know and that could be the killer app of the protocol.

Yes CFDs are currently implemented.

Would you like to test them out? The test Super Bowl bet between me and jimhsu patched a few bugs. If someone comes up with interesting terms for a short-term bet, I'm up for taking the other side.

I think probably the killer use case for CFDs is being able to short XCP/USD. This would essentially allow you to keep your wealth in XCP but have no exposure to XCP price fluctuations.
Sorry I can't, I haven't install counterpartyd yet, I am waiting the GUI.

I don't think a lot of people will be ready to keep their wealth in XCP, but for those who want to keep it in BTC (which makes quite a lot of people) be able to short BTC/USD would be indeed a revolutionary perspective.
newbie
Activity: 48
Merit: 0
CP Team,

What are the expected next stage milestones for the XCP platform and currency (by concept and appx target dates)? for example: friendly to use client, the next version of the decentralized exchange? what's more after that? can you briefly describe plans? it will also be great for the "spreading the word" aspect. Thanks



Spread the word now, and you'll kill the platform. It's clearly still very immature. It seems I lost over a thousand USD already, poof into a black hole due to bugs. This software really needs to be way more stable and proof it's stable. The bugs where btc just disappear into the void, while reporting my wallet as having the order happily filled simply indicates that core parts of the software are not reliable. You don't want to announce it to the big public at this point, you really don't.
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