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Topic: Anonymous hacker's group fight against Russia - page 2. (Read 832 times)

full member
Activity: 2142
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What is the goal of these hackers? To stop the war? Not going to help. It is only in movies hackers stop wars and other global problems. Industrial espionage - could be a good reason to hack Russian companies. But such hackers always exited. In every country. And there were always white hackers that were against them. They can try to hack social media, but Russia has already limited their internet and banned unwanted pages.
I believe that "anonymous" hackers are making their contribution against Russian military aggression. They post hundreds of gigabytes of information from hacked official websites of state structures, including the Russian Ministry of Defense, to the international network for viewing. This has to be done because during more than twenty years of Putin's rule, state propaganda in Russia has completely changed the minds of the people through the constant flow of lies. Therefore, now more than 80 percent of Russians support Putin's military aggression in Ukraine and the killing of civilians in Ukraine. Even the failed results of such aggression are also hushed up or significantly distorted by the Russian authorities. The "anonymous" hackers show both the lies of the Russian authorities and pass on valuable information to the relevant services of different countries, which will be used in the future against the criminal regime of Putnam.
legendary
Activity: 3752
Merit: 1864
The global economy is actually suffering right now. Even Asian countries are experiencing the crisis because of the war as the inflation strikes higher due to oil price hikes. I think not only innovent Russian and Ukrainian people are suffering but every individual around the globe. It really has a huge impact even on the farthest country but I guess this war will still continue because Ukraine doesn't have any gasp of surrendering.
Ukraine already intends to stop the war by not joining NATO...
I saw on news sites that the president of ukraine had promised putin not to join NATO as long as russia wanted to stop the war. This war has had an impact on the global economy, Russia is one of the world's largest oil-producing countries, and in some countries, oil prices have skyrocketed. after all, parties have exerted all their power to stop Russia including the hackers but the decision to stop the war is in the hands of both countries.
I doubt that is going to be enough to stop the war, such promises could have been enough to stop the war from happening in the first place, but now that Putin has decided to cross the line then I think there is no way to stop this until Putin gets whatever he wants out of Ukraine, after all even if Ukraine does not join NATO now, Putin will want guarantees this will not happen anytime soon, and for that most likely he will want a government friendly to Russia to rule Ukraine.

Russian President Vladimir Putin is now obsessed with power, and his actions suggest he will not stop until Ukraine is completely destroyed. Russia's atrocities against Ukraine are so hilarious that the Ukrainian president has accused Russia of committing some of the worst war crimes since World War II.

Putin's aggressive stance is not the only reason Ukraine and Russia are suffering. This war is spreading all over the world. Both these countries are on the index of major food exporters. But as a result of the terrible war, croplands, crops, and factories are being damaged.  As a result, prices are rising due to a shortage of food.

Which is thought to bring down the world's starvation! I will not only blame Russia for this, but Volodymyr Zelenskyy and equally guilty, the whole world will suffer because of the whims of both of them.


First you need to understand who Putin is? This is a small person, with a bunch of complexes, and a painful psyche. So painful that he has quite a full-fledged signs of manic depression. Why is he so clinging to Ukraine? As you can see, the history of Russia is a history of dastardly, terrorist wars against obviously, and guaranteed to be weaker countries, where huge Russia is guaranteed to win. Well, who is the commander-in-chief of the army? Of course, our "great President Putin." Well, how to implement your complexes? Ukraine for Russia is a sacred territory. The entire fictional history of Russia is essentially a stolen history of Kievan Rusi (this is a historically correct name). Muscovy has always been an appendage of the kaganate, has always been on the sidelines, and has always wanted to become the center of Slavism, scratching its Mongoloid heads - historical Rusi, here I am a great collector of peoples, I am God!
But it turned out that Ukraine does not want an alliance with the remnants of the Khaganate. Ukraine wants to live independently... And Putin did not come up with anything better, being confident in his abilities (and this is the result of many years of deception of Putin by his servants), how to start another "quick victorious war." As a result, on the 50th day of the war, the Russian army was humiliated and visibly defeated. On the horizon is a real military defeat for Russia. And something needs to be done! Putin considers himself great and invincible Smiley What will happen next?
I can suggest one interesting scenario - since Russia cannot defeat Ukraine, and moreover, it will soon be defeated, it is necessary to "change shoes" somehow quickly so that the situation no longer looks so shameful. How ? But for example, like this - to arrange a provocation with one of the western border countries (Poland, the Baltic countries) and say - no, well, this is already a conflict with NATO, which spoke for Ukraine, but we are not at war with NATO, we are a peaceful country ! Everything, the war ends, we won, we are peaceful, they are evil, everything is as we said!

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Vaccinized.. immunity level is full.
The global economy is actually suffering right now. Even Asian countries are experiencing the crisis because of the war as the inflation strikes higher due to oil price hikes. I think not only innovent Russian and Ukrainian people are suffering but every individual around the globe. It really has a huge impact even on the farthest country but I guess this war will still continue because Ukraine doesn't have any gasp of surrendering.
Ukraine already intends to stop the war by not joining NATO...
I saw on news sites that the president of ukraine had promised putin not to join NATO as long as russia wanted to stop the war. This war has had an impact on the global economy, Russia is one of the world's largest oil-producing countries, and in some countries, oil prices have skyrocketed. after all, parties have exerted all their power to stop Russia including the hackers but the decision to stop the war is in the hands of both countries.
I doubt that is going to be enough to stop the war, such promises could have been enough to stop the war from happening in the first place, but now that Putin has decided to cross the line then I think there is no way to stop this until Putin gets whatever he wants out of Ukraine, after all even if Ukraine does not join NATO now, Putin will want guarantees this will not happen anytime soon, and for that most likely he will want a government friendly to Russia to rule Ukraine.

Russian President Vladimir Putin is now obsessed with power, and his actions suggest he will not stop until Ukraine is completely destroyed. Russia's atrocities against Ukraine are so hilarious that the Ukrainian president has accused Russia of committing some of the worst war crimes since World War II.

Putin's aggressive stance is not the only reason Ukraine and Russia are suffering. This war is spreading all over the world. Both these countries are on the index of major food exporters. But as a result of the terrible war, croplands, crops, and factories are being damaged.  As a result, prices are rising due to a shortage of food.

Which is thought to bring down the world's starvation! I will not only blame Russia for this, but Volodymyr Zelenskyy and equally guilty, the whole world will suffer because of the whims of both of them.
legendary
Activity: 3752
Merit: 1864
Anonymous has carried out numerous cyberattacks against many Russian government organizations, but nothing seems to have impacted or affected Russia. They just wanted to show their opposition to the war, but their actions were like locusts kicking cars.

Recent negotiations appear to have broken down and no alternative solution has been proposed. The war will continue for a few more months and no one but the people themselves will continue to bear the consequences.
The cyber attack carried out by Anonymous, I don't think, has a big impact and doesn't change anything regarding this war.
the fact that until now the war is still ongoing and we never know how long it will last,
Of course, everyone hopes that the war will end soon, especially Ukrainian civilians who are still suffering and they certainly want to feel freedom

The only effect is that the EU has imposed the most severe sanctions on Russia, but nothing can stop Russia. Putin certainly won't stop until he achieves the goal of this fight. I think that the war will end only when Ukraine meets the conditions set forth by Russia and that is the only way.

Ukraine will fulfill the conditions of the Kremlin? Smiley Yes, you are a high-level humorist! Smiley))
To date, the results of the terrorist scam of the crazy under-Fuhrer have been:
- loss of more than 25% of the entire combat army
- the status of the greatest economy, the second army in the world and other tales about "the greatness of something there in Russia" - have become a fake and an air bubble for everyone. Russia is rubbish!!!
- global sanctions, which 2 months ago were talked about as a fantasy. Today it is a reality. In the near future - more will be added, generally unexpected - follow the reality Smiley
- Russia received, for many decades, the status of a world terrorist and inadequate.

Yesterday is very symbolic, "a country that does not have an army, missile troops, and where they love Russia very much," worked perfectly and sank the flagship of the Russian Black Sea terrorist fleet with a missile attack, under the symbolic name "Moscow" Smiley
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Anonymous has carried out numerous cyberattacks against many Russian government organizations, but nothing seems to have impacted or affected Russia. They just wanted to show their opposition to the war, but their actions were like locusts kicking cars.

Recent negotiations appear to have broken down and no alternative solution has been proposed. The war will continue for a few more months and no one but the people themselves will continue to bear the consequences.
The cyber attack carried out by Anonymous, I don't think, has a big impact and doesn't change anything regarding this war.
the fact that until now the war is still ongoing and we never know how long it will last,
Of course, everyone hopes that the war will end soon, especially Ukrainian civilians who are still suffering and they certainly want to feel freedom

The only effect is that the EU has imposed the most severe sanctions on Russia, but nothing can stop Russia. Putin certainly won't stop until he achieves the goal of this fight. I think that the war will end only when Ukraine meets the conditions set forth by Russia and that is the only way.
legendary
Activity: 2394
Merit: 1476
Any results? Has been fighting against Russia for a month. I think hacking is a long lasting process. Finding a breach in defense is not easy and wont be quick. Wont it happen, that the war would end, and only then hackers would find a place to attack.

Ive read that there are Russian sites, that are being ddosed from time to time. But I am not sure that is connected exactly with current topic hackers.
full member
Activity: 910
Merit: 100
Anonymous has carried out numerous cyberattacks against many Russian government organizations, but nothing seems to have impacted or affected Russia. They just wanted to show their opposition to the war, but their actions were like locusts kicking cars.

Recent negotiations appear to have broken down and no alternative solution has been proposed. The war will continue for a few more months and no one but the people themselves will continue to bear the consequences.
The cyber attack carried out by Anonymous, I don't think, has a big impact and doesn't change anything regarding this war.
the fact that until now the war is still ongoing and we never know how long it will last,
Of course, everyone hopes that the war will end soon, especially Ukrainian civilians who are still suffering and they certainly want to feel freedom
full member
Activity: 490
Merit: 212
As I know anonymous is not a single group where many security nerds work together to do something. You can also be a member of anonymous if you declared one. It's more like a decentralized hacker activist but I do not know who runs that youtube channel where videos have been released in the name of anonymous. Without a central command center or leadership, I do not know how this group will fight against Russia.

Anonymous are experienced hackers group and not a single entity, they have developed structures and have previous records of their successful launched hack attacks and getting to know their root source has remain an Achilles heel for the governments, and I see most of their attacks were in reponyse to fight against government and fights for human rights.
They are exposing everything now via digital aspects but what things that it did really in result? Yes, they could show off something but that wont really be enough on stopping this war but at least

they are really showing off their concern and going against Russian government where its still getting some community support on what they are doing.It might not be enough but
still a commendable thing that had been done.Anonymous is a community of white hackers i believe.

I really doubt their effectiveness in social media. How many people follow their Twitter handle and youtube channel. How many people know about them? They can do big things behind the door but their social presence is not well enough to spread their concern to the people. People always have sympathy for the weak so community support is no surprise here.
hero member
Activity: 1960
Merit: 547
Vave.com - Crypto Casino
Anonymous has carried out numerous cyberattacks against many Russian government organizations, but nothing seems to have impacted or affected Russia. They just wanted to show their opposition to the war, but their actions were like locusts kicking cars.

Recent negotiations appear to have broken down and no alternative solution has been proposed. The war will continue for a few more months and no one but the people themselves will continue to bear the consequences.
hero member
Activity: 2996
Merit: 609
As I know anonymous is not a single group where many security nerds work together to do something. You can also be a member of anonymous if you declared one. It's more like a decentralized hacker activist but I do not know who runs that youtube channel where videos have been released in the name of anonymous. Without a central command center or leadership, I do not know how this group will fight against Russia.

Anonymous are experienced hackers group and not a single entity, they have developed structures and have previous records of their successful launched hack attacks and getting to know their root source has remain an Achilles heel for the governments, and I see most of their attacks were in reponyse to fight against government and fights for human rights.
They are exposing everything now via digital aspects but what things that it did really in result? Yes, they could show off something but that wont really be enough on stopping this war but at least

they are really showing off their concern and going against Russian government where its still getting some community support on what they are doing.It might not be enough but
still a commendable thing that had been done.Anonymous is a community of white hackers i believe.
hero member
Activity: 2884
Merit: 794
I am terrible at Fantasy Football!!!
Peace talks without a ceasefire in place at least to me seem to be incredibly problematic, since they make reaching an agreement incredibly hard, since not only soldiers keep dying but now there are accusations of war crimes against civilians which were perpetrated by the Russian army, so those events make negotiations more difficult and hardens the posture of both sides as both blame each other for those events, so I have lost any hope this war can be resolved through those peace talks any time soon.
Besides that, if you look at this war, I don't think it's easy to achieve peace or even expect this war to end by means of diplomacy or peace talks.
If this continues, maybe this war will be prolonged and I hope that doesn't happen.
negotiations in war will not be easy and let's see what the two sides will do later
And just a few days ago both delegations basically admitted that they are deadlocked and that the negotiations are going nowhere, which is not really that surprising if we think about it, but this means that the war will continue, and even if the Ukrainian army and the citizens are doing everything they can to resist the Russian invasion, Putin seems determined to sacrifice anything, including his own people, in order to achieve his goals, and against such irrational person it would be incredibly difficult for the Ukrainian army to resist for months or even years.
hero member
Activity: 812
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As I know anonymous is not a single group where many security nerds work together to do something. You can also be a member of anonymous if you declared one. It's more like a decentralized hacker activist but I do not know who runs that youtube channel where videos have been released in the name of anonymous. Without a central command center or leadership, I do not know how this group will fight against Russia.

Anonymous are experienced hackers group and not a single entity, they have developed structures and have previous records of their successful launched hack attacks and getting to know their root source has remain an Achilles heel for the governments, and I see most of their attacks were in reponyse to fight against government and fights for human rights.
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I doubt that is going to be enough to stop the war, such promises could have been enough to stop the war from happening in the first place, but now that Putin has decided to cross the line then I think there is no way to stop this until Putin gets whatever he wants out of Ukraine, after all even if Ukraine does not join NATO now, Putin will want guarantees this will not happen anytime soon, and for that most likely he will want a government friendly to Russia to rule Ukraine.
They are making such effort against with Russia via cyberattacks and other exploits online but its true that it wont really be just enough on stopping the war but what they are doing is still commendable.

Peace talks is on the process and lets hope that this war would be over soon.Sanctions are already in left and right and other progressive events is happening on negative manner.
Lots of question do raise up on what would happen into the economy of RUssia if sanctions and cut off ties would be more that severe and lets see on what would happen.
Peace talks without a ceasefire in place at least to me seem to be incredibly problematic, since they make reaching an agreement incredibly hard, since not only soldiers keep dying but now there are accusations of war crimes against civilians which were perpetrated by the Russian army, so those events make negotiations more difficult and hardens the posture of both sides as both blame each other for those events, so I have lost any hope this war can be resolved through those peace talks any time soon.
Besides that, if you look at this war, I don't think it's easy to achieve peace or even expect this war to end by means of diplomacy or peace talks.
If this continues, maybe this war will be prolonged and I hope that doesn't happen.
negotiations in war will not be easy and let's see what the two sides will do later
legendary
Activity: 3080
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I doubt that is going to be enough to stop the war, such promises could have been enough to stop the war from happening in the first place, but now that Putin has decided to cross the line then I think there is no way to stop this until Putin gets whatever he wants out of Ukraine, after all even if Ukraine does not join NATO now, Putin will want guarantees this will not happen anytime soon, and for that most likely he will want a government friendly to Russia to rule Ukraine.
They are making such effort against with Russia via cyberattacks and other exploits online but its true that it wont really be just enough on stopping the war but what they are doing is still commendable.

Peace talks is on the process and lets hope that this war would be over soon.Sanctions are already in left and right and other progressive events is happening on negative manner.
Lots of question do raise up on what would happen into the economy of RUssia if sanctions and cut off ties would be more that severe and lets see on what would happen.
Peace talks without a ceasefire in place at least to me seem to be incredibly problematic, since they make reaching an agreement incredibly hard, since not only soldiers keep dying but now there are accusations of war crimes against civilians which were perpetrated by the Russian army, so those events make negotiations more difficult and hardens the posture of both sides as both blame each other for those events, so I have lost any hope this war can be resolved through those peace talks any time soon.
Even myself that peacetalks shouldnt really last out for several meetings or negotiations which is something pointless on having these things but at least they have considered on having these negotiations or peacetalks which might really able to stop this war completely but it seems its a bit pointless or useless due to those things that you had mentioned above which is really indeed currently happening
which would really result into further mess and this would make this war wont end anytime soon.

Yeah, but it seems that Putin is firm so I doubt that the negotiations are going to last or will it be successful. And we all know that both sides doesn't trust each other so no point in a peace talk unless that there is someone in the middle that will brokered this deal.

As for the anonymous hackers, they've already proven how effective they are are far as cyber war is. So this might continue for a while, we may not even know it, but there could be some hackers within inside Russia as well who are helping their fellow anonymous hacking group to penetrate and disrupt Russia's cyber capabilities.
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I doubt that is going to be enough to stop the war, such promises could have been enough to stop the war from happening in the first place, but now that Putin has decided to cross the line then I think there is no way to stop this until Putin gets whatever he wants out of Ukraine, after all even if Ukraine does not join NATO now, Putin will want guarantees this will not happen anytime soon, and for that most likely he will want a government friendly to Russia to rule Ukraine.
They are making such effort against with Russia via cyberattacks and other exploits online but its true that it wont really be just enough on stopping the war but what they are doing is still commendable.

Peace talks is on the process and lets hope that this war would be over soon.Sanctions are already in left and right and other progressive events is happening on negative manner.
Lots of question do raise up on what would happen into the economy of RUssia if sanctions and cut off ties would be more that severe and lets see on what would happen.
Peace talks without a ceasefire in place at least to me seem to be incredibly problematic, since they make reaching an agreement incredibly hard, since not only soldiers keep dying but now there are accusations of war crimes against civilians which were perpetrated by the Russian army, so those events make negotiations more difficult and hardens the posture of both sides as both blame each other for those events, so I have lost any hope this war can be resolved through those peace talks any time soon.
Even myself that peacetalks shouldnt really last out for several meetings or negotiations which is something pointless on having these things but at least they have considered on having these negotiations or peacetalks which might really able to stop this war completely but it seems its a bit pointless or useless due to those things that you had mentioned above which is really indeed currently happening
which would really result into further mess and this would make this war wont end anytime soon.
hero member
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I am terrible at Fantasy Football!!!
I doubt that is going to be enough to stop the war, such promises could have been enough to stop the war from happening in the first place, but now that Putin has decided to cross the line then I think there is no way to stop this until Putin gets whatever he wants out of Ukraine, after all even if Ukraine does not join NATO now, Putin will want guarantees this will not happen anytime soon, and for that most likely he will want a government friendly to Russia to rule Ukraine.
They are making such effort against with Russia via cyberattacks and other exploits online but its true that it wont really be just enough on stopping the war but what they are doing is still commendable.

Peace talks is on the process and lets hope that this war would be over soon.Sanctions are already in left and right and other progressive events is happening on negative manner.
Lots of question do raise up on what would happen into the economy of RUssia if sanctions and cut off ties would be more that severe and lets see on what would happen.
Peace talks without a ceasefire in place at least to me seem to be incredibly problematic, since they make reaching an agreement incredibly hard, since not only soldiers keep dying but now there are accusations of war crimes against civilians which were perpetrated by the Russian army, so those events make negotiations more difficult and hardens the posture of both sides as both blame each other for those events, so I have lost any hope this war can be resolved through those peace talks any time soon.
full member
Activity: 490
Merit: 212
As I know anonymous is not a single group where many security nerds work together to do something. You can also be a member of anonymous if you declared one. It's more like a decentralized hacker activist but I do not know who runs that youtube channel where videos have been released in the name of anonymous. Without a central command center or leadership, I do not know how this group will fight against Russia.
legendary
Activity: 3752
Merit: 1864
Anonymous hacker's group fight against Russia

Russians are obviously passing through alot at this trying time as a result of it government invassion of Ukraine, this brings about the interference of one of the world's known hacker's group "anonymous" declaring waging war against Russia by hacking into their government official websites, Russian Tv channels releasing the footage of their invasion on Ukraine to the world.
Quote
Anonymous has also taken responsibility for several other cyber attacks, including shutting down the Kremlin’s official website, hacking the Ministry of Defence database and taking down 300+ Russian media and bank websites.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.standard.co.uk/insider/anonymous-hacker-group-russia-war-russian-tv-hacked-b986733.html%3famp

Considering the magnitude of the implication caused as a result of Putin engaging war against Ukraine, the Innocent Russians have suffered much in the areas of: sanction and swift ban placed, economy downsize, denied access to international freedom trade, inflation, devaluation of RUBBLE against USD, loss of military personnels, denied access to social media (Facebook and Twitter), ban of about 25,000 coinbase users accounts and pause in other crypto exchanges, shutdown in Kazakhstan bitcoin mining and crypto related activities, Mastercard, Visa and PayPal service shutdown, loss of innocent lives among others with the threat to also release one of it deadliest nuclear weapons.

When i watched this video of  Russian soldier surrenders to Ukrainian public who feed him and tears begin to drop from my eyes that why are we humans the cause of our problems? another report coming in says Russia will begin to loose hold to withstand starting from Sunday.

Must Russia (Putin) remain adamant in proving to the world its ability and last resort?


"the Innocent Russians have suffered much in the areas of" - and who are the "innocent Russians"? 90%+ of the population who SUPPORT Putin's policies and aggression against Ukraine? Those who do not support politics have been in prison for a long time and have already lost everything.
Or did you mean soldiers, Russian citizens who go to Ukraine to kill Ukrainian citizens because Putin decided to strengthen his rating? It's not Putin who's killing us here, it's those very "innocent Russians" who are killing us!

If you have friends who speak Russian, look on YouTube for recordings of "intercepting the conversations of Russian soldiers", on this channel (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCRxyjhmvBewJIRb2yku5EuQ), this is the official channel of the Security Service of Ukraine. There are a lot of such records, and listen to what the soldiers of the Russian army and their relatives in Russia are talking about. The soldiers talk about how they are engaged in looting here, how people lived well in Ukraine, and how much the soldiers stole from the destroyed houses. And their mothers, wives, friends, "innocent", they say - yes, cool, steal more, find me a TV or a screwdriver there! Let's stuff your pockets with everything you see, bring me a quality T-shirt! This is not my nonsense - this is real talk! Remember - Nazi Germany, its inhabitants, were recognized as all accomplices in the crime, all who supported the regime, all who did not resist ... So almost all Russians are guilty of a new tragedy, all accomplices and co-perpetrators.
legendary
Activity: 2072
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They are making such effort against with Russia via cyberattacks and other exploits online but its true that it wont really be just enough on stopping the war but what they are doing is still commendable.

Peace talks is on the process and lets hope that this war would be over soon.Sanctions are already in left and right and other progressive events is happening on negative manner.
Lots of question do raise up on what would happen into the economy of RUssia if sanctions and cut off ties would be more that severe and lets see on what would happen.

Most recent, hacker anonymous claims to have released 28GB of documents from the Central Bank of Russia, has yet to verify those documents are real or not. But I don't seem to see it having any effect on the russians they're like grasshopper kick car, everything just doesn't work.

The round of negotiations between Russia and Ukraine has made a new breakthrough, the two countries have reached consensus on Ukraine's neutral stance. Let's wait for new developments and hope the war will end soon.
hero member
Activity: 2954
Merit: 781
The global economy is actually suffering right now. Even Asian countries are experiencing the crisis because of the war as the inflation strikes higher due to oil price hikes. I think not only innovent Russian and Ukrainian people are suffering but every individual around the globe. It really has a huge impact even on the farthest country but I guess this war will still continue because Ukraine doesn't have any gasp of surrendering.
Ukraine already intends to stop the war by not joining NATO...

I saw on news sites that the president of ukraine had promised putin not to join NATO as long as russia wanted to stop the war. This war has had an impact on the global economy, Russia is one of the world's largest oil-producing countries, and in some countries, oil prices have skyrocketed. after all, parties have exerted all their power to stop Russia including the hackers but the decision to stop the war is in the hands of both countries.
I doubt that is going to be enough to stop the war, such promises could have been enough to stop the war from happening in the first place, but now that Putin has decided to cross the line then I think there is no way to stop this until Putin gets whatever he wants out of Ukraine, after all even if Ukraine does not join NATO now, Putin will want guarantees this will not happen anytime soon, and for that most likely he will want a government friendly to Russia to rule Ukraine.
They are making such effort against with Russia via cyberattacks and other exploits online but its true that it wont really be just enough on stopping the war but what they are doing is still commendable.

Peace talks is on the process and lets hope that this war would be over soon.Sanctions are already in left and right and other progressive events is happening on negative manner.
Lots of question do raise up on what would happen into the economy of RUssia if sanctions and cut off ties would be more that severe and lets see on what would happen.
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