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Topic: Another respected cryptographer predicts collapse in bitcoin mining - page 4. (Read 10813 times)

legendary
Activity: 1106
Merit: 1004
However, deriving a result from a set of assumptions should not be confused with science.

That's how mathematics itself is done... you don't consider Mathematics to be a science?

EDIT: Correcting myself, mathematics (and sound economics) derive results from a set of axioms, not assumptions, it is not the same thing.
donator
Activity: 980
Merit: 1000
I won't defend economics as an actual science. It isn't.

There are two ways of doing economics. Empirically, like physics, or aprioristically, like math. I agree that it is not scientific to do economics empirically, because you simply cannot isolate all the buzillions variables involved, nor repeat your experiments enough times to get good samples. They actually can't even experiment.
But economics can be done like math, using logically sound constructions on top of axioms. This works much better and it is scientific.

Sure, economics is done like math. This is how it is done in academia, and doing this would be a great improvement over what the authors did in this article.

However, deriving a result from a set of assumptions should not be confused with science. Science requires the formulation of testable hypotheses. In economics, particularly macroeconomics, it is typically impossible to credibly test theoretical assumptions. That is why I say it is not an actual science.

+1

But as I said before, not only economists and sociologists (with their respective lingos) can effectively speculate about human behaviour.

Quoting myself:

People are already starting to use FPGAs, and maybe one day we'll even see ASICs.
Botnets won't have such specialized hardware. Ok, they have free electricity, but they are limited in size.

And by the way, in what concerns the bitcoin network, botnets are not a problem. It only becomes a problem if one single botnet is too large and manages to get >50%.

PS: I confess I did not read the paper so sorry if I'm saying something which is already addressed by it.

+1, I had the exact same thought. I read through almost to the end of the article, and FPGAs/ASICs are not mentioned - a gaping hole in such an article.

I'd say this is a bug rather than a feature. Traditional botnets never have significant power (in any measure) in comparison with the that of the complete network, they are only of any use because they can profitably attack reduced sets of individuals. They can trounce a carefully selected individual or company. If a 50%+ attack on the whole was necessary they would be completely useless.

However, amassing very specific tools that are out of reach for most people is something a cartel can try and maybe succeed in doing.

For instance, if the higher end of these (  discussion ) are available, then it would take around $4M to control mining (provided they could ramp up production to that scale).
legendary
Activity: 938
Merit: 1001
bitcoin - the aerogel of money
Botnets are only a temporary problem for Bitcoin.

The authors have missed several important points:

1 Some honest miners also have a zero cost curve for electricity. Market forces will ensure that their market share will rise. Every electric heater in the world has the potential to be converted into a mining rig.  This market can potentially absorb a huge amount of Ghash/s.
 
2. Most ordinary people (=botnet victims) are ditching their PCs for laptops and laptops for tablets, which have humble GPU power compared to even an amateur miner.

3. Successful botnets operate stealthily.  Botnets that cause too much disruption for their victims are the ones that get shut down.  It is difficult to run a stealthy mining botnet for an extended period of time, because at the very least the fan noise is going to bother the victims.  

4. Botnets have a limited lifetime. Hackers must constantly work hard at infecting new machines in order to make money. A miner, on the other hand, has a passive source of income once he has invested in the rig.

5. CPU => GPU => FPGA => ASIC => highly specialized non-silicon IC
legendary
Activity: 1050
Merit: 1003
I won't defend economics as an actual science. It isn't.

There are two ways of doing economics. Empirically, like physics, or aprioristically, like math. I agree that it is not scientific to do economics empirically, because you simply cannot isolate all the buzillions variables involved, nor repeat your experiments enough times to get good samples. They actually can't even experiment.
But economics can be done like math, using logically sound constructions on top of axioms. This works much better and it is scientific.

Sure, economics is done like math. This is how it is done in academia, and doing this would be a great improvement over what the authors did in this article.

However, deriving a result from a set of assumptions should not be confused with science. Science requires the formulation of testable hypotheses. In economics, particularly macroeconomics, it is typically impossible to credibly test theoretical assumptions. That is why I say it is not an actual science.
legendary
Activity: 1937
Merit: 1001
Gosh i so hate these self proclaimed experts who are totally clueless....
hero member
Activity: 558
Merit: 500
legendary
Activity: 1358
Merit: 1003
Ron Gross
Quoting myself:

People are already starting to use FPGAs, and maybe one day we'll even see ASICs.
Botnets won't have such specialized hardware. Ok, they have free electricity, but they are limited in size.

And by the way, in what concerns the bitcoin network, botnets are not a problem. It only becomes a problem if one single botnet is too large and manages to get >50%.

PS: I confess I did not read the paper so sorry if I'm saying something which is already addressed by it.

+1, I had the exact same thought. I read through almost to the end of the article, and FPGAs/ASICs are not mentioned - a gaping hole in such an article.
hero member
Activity: 504
Merit: 502
This is another "Bitcoin will fail because it's successful" type argument (it's usually about hoarding -- bitcoin will fail because it's so successful that people keep them).

The author's argument is wrong because Bitcoin the network doesn't care in the slightest how many miners there are nor how much they are paying for their electricity.  It is absolutely excellent for Bitcoin if a load of botnets start mining -- the blockchain is more secure.  It's not great for the people who are having their resources abused to do so; but that is their problem.

Quote
One could operate a mining botnet and slowly lower the Bitcoin market price by regularly selling small amounts of bitcoins with a declining price.

He should give it a go.  See how quickly his ever cheaper coins get snapped up.  The price is set by the market, not by the miners.  That becomes more and more true every day while we are in our strong inflationary period.

The only potential risk is that a large botnet gets switched off suddenly and the rest of the network can't adjust to it fast enough.  Block production would suddenly slow massively.  However, I think I saw Gavin writing about having potential work arounds for that, so let's not worry too much.
legendary
Activity: 1106
Merit: 1004
I won't defend economics as an actual science. It isn't.

There are two ways of doing economics. Empirically, like physics, or aprioristically, like math. I agree that it is not scientific to do economics empirically, because you simply cannot isolate all the buzillions variables involved, nor repeat your experiments enough times to get good samples. They actually can't even experiment.
But economics can be done like math, using logically sound constructions on top of axioms. This works much better and it is scientific.
legendary
Activity: 1050
Merit: 1003
My point is that these are fundamentally economics issues, not cryptography issues. The people having these discussions have no idea what they are talking about.


Network effects are also cryptography issues, or more generally computer security issues.

But actually I'm not going to side with them just because I'm CompSci/EE, the points they bring up are highly speculative and unscientific. In this regard they are talking in terms that belong in economics and sociology, which are not actual sciences. However, that doesn't mean only economists and sociologists can speculate about human behaviour.

I won't defend economics as an actual science. It isn't. Economics lays out assumptions about human behavior and then derives how agents following those assumptions will behave. The authors are not doing this.
hero member
Activity: 484
Merit: 500
Botnets will never work for minigng..they are to valuabel and owners can make more (illegaly) using them in other areas..using them for minign would go the opposite..they would easier be to spot and to spot..no botnet owner right in his head would  ever use it for mining..at 100$ per btc they maybe try lol Also specialised hardwar..etc..cpu minign jsut doesnt woirk out..why can`t these people read a bit ebfore beginnign to FUD
donator
Activity: 980
Merit: 1000
My point is that these are fundamentally economics issues, not cryptography issues. The people having these discussions have no idea what they are talking about.


Network effects are also cryptography issues, or more generally computer security issues.

But actually I'm not going to side with them just because I'm CompSci/EE, the points they bring up are highly speculative and unscientific. In this regard they are talking in terms that belong in economics and sociology, which are not actual sciences. However, that doesn't mean only economists and sociologists can speculate about human behaviour.
sr. member
Activity: 476
Merit: 250
Not to mention people would notice the sound of their gpus mining at full speed so those are pretty much out of the question.
sr. member
Activity: 333
Merit: 252
Setting up and maintaining  a botnet takes time and effort. It's not "free."
legendary
Activity: 1050
Merit: 1003
My point is that these are fundamentally economics issues, not cryptography issues. The people having these discussions have no idea what they are talking about.
sr. member
Activity: 303
Merit: 251

That said, the writers of this article don't know shit about economics and abuse terminology. They would be better off sticking to cryptography.

The arguments they put forward are very similar to the Ben Laurie blatherings on bitcoin. Zooko Wilcox-O'Hearn had a Google+ post reviewing these 'blacklist' and 'whitelist' architecture issues for bitcoin nodes:

"What Would You Do With >50% of the World's Bitcoin Mining Power?"
https://plus.google.com/u/0/108313527900507320366/posts/6NCqDrZUYiF
legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1015
donator
Activity: 980
Merit: 1000
If bitcoin achieves critical mass, having criminal botnets bigger than the rest of the network seems extremely unlikely. There's the problem of having proof of work that's extremely more efficiently done by very specific hardware than with common hardware, so a very big party can still create a network of very specific hardware and outmine the rest of the network into submission (making most of them give up mining and achieving 50% then). This also becomes more unlikely as specific hardware is commercialised and acquired by a number of independent miners and for researchers it's much easier and safer to sell it openly than to a cartel.
legendary
Activity: 1106
Merit: 1004
Quoting myself:

People are already starting to use FPGAs, and maybe one day we'll even see ASICs.
Botnets won't have such specialized hardware. Ok, they have free electricity, but they are limited in size.

And by the way, in what concerns the bitcoin network, botnets are not a problem. It only becomes a problem if one single botnet is too large and manages to get >50%.

PS: I confess I did not read the paper so sorry if I'm saying something which is already addressed by it.
legendary
Activity: 1050
Merit: 1003
These predictions become more likely to occur as the block reward decreases.

Proof-of-work is fatally flawed and in the future alternative cryptocurrency will be based on a more sensible architecture... proof-of-stake.
 
Coding robots come out with a release for me.

That said, the writers of this article don't know shit about economics and abuse terminology. They would be better off sticking to cryptography.
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