Anything to worry about if you use mixers and not doing anything illegal? - page 2.

aylabadia05

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Quote from: bitcoin talk on December 18, 2023, 09:38:59 PM

Anything to worry about if you use mixers and not doing anything illegal?

No. No need to worry.

Quote from: bitcoin talk on December 18, 2023, 09:38:59 PM

Will any one come knocking on your door if you use mixers and not doing anything illegal?

If someone comes knocking on my door because I use a mixer service but it doesn't lead to anything illegal, I will greet them in a friendly manner.
I think there is no need to be afraid of not committing illegal actions.

Quote from: bitcoin talk on December 18, 2023, 09:38:59 PM

Will posts like this be banned too after Jan?

quote from theymos on December 1, 2023, mixer discussions are not prohibited. This means we can still have discussions about mixers.

ranochigo

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Quote from: bitcoin talk on December 20, 2023, 05:24:04 AM

I doubt very much your average lawyer will even know what a mixer is.

If you think your lawyer doesn't have any idea of the FinTech laws, then you should probably change your lawyer. If you can't even afford a proper lawyer right now, then you have nothing to worry about.

If you aren't doing anything illegal and you are not mixing a significant amount of money, no one would bother you. The man-hours it takes to compile the evidence to prosecute a person is not worth the time, don't worry about it. That is unless you are doing something illegal and you definitely have things to worry about then.

Alpha Marine

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Quote from: bitcoin talk on December 18, 2023, 09:38:59 PM

Anything to worry about if you use mixers and not doing anything illegal?

In the statement released by the FBI or whoever it was when the most recent mixer was shut down they said something like "Mixers are not illegal". This means using mixers is not illegal. If you're carrying out any illicit activities with mixers, that's what is illegal.

It's the same thing with using the Internet.
You're boldly using the Internet and nobody has come knocking at your door simply because you use the internet, but if you use the internet for illegal activities, somebody might come knocking.

bitcoin talk

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Quote from: Lucius on December 21, 2023, 04:18:44 AM

Quote from: bitcoin talk on December 20, 2023, 05:29:48 PM

Does anyone else agree that mixers can be tracked?

Did you read anything on the link I put in my previous post?

Yes, thanks.

From your link the quotes below grabbed my attention:

Quote from: madu on March 16, 2019, 10:12:45 AM

In general, I would recommend using privacy driven cryptocurrencies if you want to have privacy in your transactions...

Since Bitcoin is purely transparent and you are able to to analyze each transaction in blockchain space you have enough data to identify and anonymize transactions regarding the mixing service.You just have to filter all blockchain data which is not interesting for you and analyze the rest.

monero and zcash are private crypto's because they were built with that purpose in mind. Bitcoin was not.

Quote from: madu on March 16, 2019, 10:12:45 AM

I did not look into the specific implementation of dash, monero, zcash. General speaking the difference between mentioned cryptos and bitcoin is, that bitcoin is not meant to provide privacy while the main focus of monero and zcash is privacy. They are built in a way to provide privacy, while in bitcoin some services try to implement algorithms to provide privacy on a cryptocurrency which is not meant to guarantee privacy.

https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0151.mediawiki
https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0156.mediawiki
https://arxiv.org/abs/1701.04439
https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Privacy
https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2019-February/016698.html

Quote from: PrimeNumber7 on March 13, 2019, 12:41:13 AM

The most effective way to maximize privacy when using Bitcoin is to abstain from address reuse, and to only conduct business with those who abstain from address reuse.
This would be very effective in making "mixers" obsolete, and unnecessary in most cases.

Quote from: Carlton Banks on March 13, 2019, 04:58:27 AM

Remember that these are confined to the network layer of Bitcoin:

1. With BIP156, your IP address will no longer be tied to your personal transactions from the perspective of connected Bitcoin nodes.
2. With BIP151, all relayed transaction data will be encrypted from the perspective of someone analysing internet traffic (but connected Bitcoin nodes will still see the transactions unencrypted).
Neither of those BIPs will change the ability to analyse transactions on the blockchain

Decentralized mixers won't steal your money?

Abiky

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Quote from: bitcoin talk on December 18, 2023, 09:38:59 PM

Anything to worry about if you use mixers and not doing anything illegal?
Will any one come knocking on your door if you use mixers and not doing anything illegal?
Will posts like this be banned too after Jan?
Will using mixers be an expensive?

As far as I know, mixers aren't illegal. No government has declared it yet, but you can raise suspicion if you use a mixer to hide the origin of your funds. While there are legitimate uses for mixers, that doesn't mean a criminal won't use it to break the law. The main reason why governments are targeting mixers is because of privacy concerns. After all, they want to have a full scope of your entire financial life.

I'd try to avoid using a mixer regularly just in case. With many centralized mixers being shut down by the government, we should expect the worse in the long run. Only non-custodial mixers will survive due to the way they're designed. Who knows what the future holds for privacy on Bitcoin? Sad

majeed

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Damn

You can use mixers legally. Remember, perception matters. You're just a person looking for privacy, right? Privacy matters, especially in the digital era. Nobody wants their finances public. How about those knock-knock fears? The likelihood of law authorities visiting your home is low if you're not doing anything unlawful. You shouldn't ignore caution, though. Authorities are always looking for suspicious activity, and excessive mixer use may fall under their radar. Mixer talks aren't banned under forum rules. Don't expect commercials or promotions for them. Clean forums - no ads or endorsements. You can ask questions or share mixing experiences, but don't anticipate mixer billboards. Maintaining a healthy, educational environment without sales pitch is key. Knowledge is powerful, but application is everything Tongue

Z-tight

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Quote from: bitcoin talk on December 20, 2023, 05:31:32 PM

reputable mixers would be who?

That is left for you to do your research, there are a lot of mixers you can choose from, and you can check their websites to know how they work before using them. But as i said in my previous post, you are going to lose custody of your coins when you use mixers, and if you want a self custodial privacy solution, use CoinJoin implementations. Recommending a particular mixer to people would be difficult right now, and that is because we do not know which mixer would fail or be seized next, and you don't want people to lose their money because you linked them to a particular mixer.

qwertyup23

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Quote from: bitcoin talk on December 18, 2023, 09:38:59 PM

Anything to worry about if you use mixers and not doing anything illegal?
Will any one come knocking on your door if you use mixers and not doing anything illegal?
Will posts like this be banned too after Jan?
Will using mixers be an expensive?

I think this depends on the nature of transactions and on the laws of the country that you are staying.

Generally, if your country has a specific prohibition against the use of mixers, then it is best for you to avoid using such even if you are not doing anything that is shady. If you violate this law, then you will have to suffer the punishment imposed on your country.

I do not think that posts related to mixers will be banned as there can be a comprehensive discussion about it with objective elements coming from all people.

The use of mixers is both a luxury and a necessity- some may want to use such service to avoid KYC and other related data; while others use it mainly for shady/dark deals. Though that may be the case, I do think that mixers will still remain expensive despite its ban on this forum.

Lucius

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Quote from: bitcoin talk on December 20, 2023, 05:29:48 PM

Quote from: Lucius on December 20, 2023, 11:35:13 AM

Mixer is a tool to make you stay anonymous,

That's the only reason I want to use mixer.

You have to be careful who you quote, because I didn't write it. As I already said, neither Bitcoin is anonymous, nor can you be sure that any mixer can provide absolute anonymity, given that the blockchain is public and anyone can analyze it - and for years there have been specialized companies that do this professionally.

Quote from: bitcoin talk on December 20, 2023, 05:29:48 PM

Does anyone else agree that mixers can be tracked?

Did you read anything on the link I put in my previous post? Well, mixers are not some kind of magic, but rather a simple input of funds and output of funds, where an attempt is made to break the connection between the coins that someone sends and the funds that the same person then receives at his address. If you're doing something really bad and "they" want to find you, be sure that you won't be able to hide by using a mixer.

Marvelman

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Quote from: bitcoin talk on December 20, 2023, 05:31:32 PM

Quote from: panganib999 on December 20, 2023, 05:14:33 PM

I don't think you should concern yourself if you're working with reputable mixers anyway.

reputable mixers would be who?

I'd argue the opposite is true. Well-known reputable bitcoin mixers tend to be more popular, right? And the popular ones likely end up on some agency's naughty list before lesser-used newer ones. But hey, don't take that as advice to use disreputable services with shady reputations or anything.

Im just sayin' there's a bit of a trade-off there

boyptc

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Quote from: bitcoin talk on December 20, 2023, 05:29:48 PM

Quote from: boyptc on December 20, 2023, 04:03:04 PM

If you want to use it for increased privacy, you're free to do so.

That's why I am looking into mixers, privacy is my motivation not because I am doing anything illegal.

That's fine.

But the concern of many here is about the forum that on exact January 1, 2024. There will be no more mentioning of these mixer brands but we're all free to discuss about mixers in general.

So, you're all free to use them any time you want even pass that deadline.

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Quote from: TimeTeller on December 20, 2023, 05:21:03 PM

Quote from: Adbitco on December 20, 2023, 05:01:42 PM

To my greatest knowledge apart from this forum you are free to make use of mixers to whatever you feels just that from the announcement, any post relating to mixers won't be allowed or sharing links and directing someone over here to start making use of. You can discuss about mixer outside the forum you have no law but do not relate it to this site again. Any mixer you are planning to used be sure the authority aren't planning to ceased it otherwise whatever trace can be subjected to you as well, so using it is at your own risk.

You are using a mixer for privacy reasons, so I guess, the platform itself is somehow protected if authorities won't dig deeper.
If you think you have nothing to hide, then, no need to be scared of using mixers or better yet, why are you using a mixer in the first place?
Right now, authorities are after for the mixer business because they are suspecting that this platform is being used for laundering money.
So if you believe, there's no need to use a mixer with your transactions, then better use other means. After all, most trading platforms are already requiring KYC.

But still people are still hiding from kyc especially those centralized exchange asking for their personal document, so people who are using mixers do not go through kyc but exchange does and for someone to successfully withdraw huge amount of funds he would be asked to go through kyc verification process making him or to review his identities making him traceable if there are any suspicion of money laundering within the exchange.

bitcoin talk

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Quote from: panganib999 on December 20, 2023, 05:14:33 PM

Quote from: bitcoin talk on December 18, 2023, 09:38:59 PM

Anything to worry about if you use mixers and not doing anything illegal?
Will any one come knocking on your door if you use mixers and not doing anything illegal?
Will posts like this be banned too after Jan?
Will using mixers be an expensive?

I don't think you should concern yourself if you're working with reputable mixers anyway.

reputable mixers would be who?

bitcoin talk

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Quote from: ImThour on December 20, 2023, 11:25:54 AM

...it solely depends on the amount of Bitcoin that we are talking about. If it's not a surprising amount, then you don't have to worry about anything at all.

It's usually very small amounts for paying online bill under $100.

Quote from: Eternad on December 20, 2023, 07:39:46 AM

Your biggest concern on mixer that has a transaction to money launderer is you receiving Bitcoins from them especially when the mixer that use was seize by the government because your Bitcoin address will be on the watch list which you will have a problem if you send your coins on CEX.... US government that typically aggressive on this matter.

This is what I was concerned about but since it's only a small amount no more than $100 then nothing to worry about?

Quote from: Lucius on December 20, 2023, 11:35:13 AM

Mixer is a tool to make you stay anonymous,

That's the only reason I want to use mixer.

Quote from: Lucius on December 20, 2023, 11:35:13 AM

..There is a good thread about how it is not that difficult to break mixers in the sense that whoever has the knowledge, resources and time can connect the dots and come to the conclusion where something came from and where it went. Those who analyze blockchain today are already so successful in this that even mixers do not pose too much of a challenge. Anonymity online is something that is talked about a lot, but being completely anonymous online is a big illusion.

Does anyone else agree that mixers can be tracked?

Quote from: The Cryptovator on December 20, 2023, 03:43:48 PM

You have to worry about using Mixer when you are using centralised platforms like exchange and wallet services.

Even web wallet's?

Quote from: The Cryptovator on December 20, 2023, 03:43:48 PM

I think you have to find alternatives when you want to protect your privacy and hide your funds. We have to use swaps or decentralised exchanges to protect privacy. I feel it is better to avoid mixers since they are facing a lot of legal issues lately. Law enforcement agencies consider money laundering whoever uses mixers. So you would be one of them if law enforcement could detect you.

My goal is anonyomilty, I am unfamilar with swaps and decentralized but will look into that, are there any other alternative ways to be anonymous with transactions?

Quote from: boyptc on December 20, 2023, 04:03:04 PM

If you want to use it for increased privacy, you're free to do so.

That's why I am looking into mixers, privacy is my motivation not because I am doing anything illegal.

TimeTeller

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Quote from: Adbitco on December 20, 2023, 05:01:42 PM

To my greatest knowledge apart from this forum you are free to make use of mixers to whatever you feels just that from the announcement, any post relating to mixers won't be allowed or sharing links and directing someone over here to start making use of. You can discuss about mixer outside the forum you have no law but do not relate it to this site again. Any mixer you are planning to used be sure the authority aren't planning to ceased it otherwise whatever trace can be subjected to you as well, so using it is at your own risk.

You are using a mixer for privacy reasons, so I guess, the platform itself is somehow protected if authorities won't dig deeper.
If you think you have nothing to hide, then, no need to be scared of using mixers or better yet, why are you using a mixer in the first place?
Right now, authorities are after for the mixer business because they are suspecting that this platform is being used for laundering money.
So if you believe, there's no need to use a mixer with your transactions, then better use other means. After all, most trading platforms are already requiring KYC.

panganib999

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Quote from: bitcoin talk on December 18, 2023, 09:38:59 PM

Anything to worry about if you use mixers and not doing anything illegal?
Will any one come knocking on your door if you use mixers and not doing anything illegal?
Will posts like this be banned too after Jan?
Will using mixers be an expensive?

I don't think you should concern yourself if you're working with reputable mixers anyway. The ones that get flagged and banned by Central Exchanges are those found to be working or used to facilitate illegal operations. Sinbad was one of them and if I'm not mistaken prior to them being banned by the US government they also received some flags from certain exchanges as well. Using mixers wouldn't really subject you to any criminal liability unless you're found to be one of those that used it to steal money from users to which you'll of course be receiving some lawsuits and a possible arrest, but if you're just an average joe concerned about the safety of your funds so you used a mixer to protect your identity against these hackers then you shouldn't worry about it. Just as I said earlier, make sure you work with a reputable and trusted mixer, and you're good to go. The ban on mixers in this forum if it concerns you is just to avoid further issues with these guys. The thing has spiraled out of control after chipmixer and sinbad got seized that the forum couldn't afford to just sit back and wait until they get the blame.

Adbitco

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To my greatest knowledge apart from this forum you are free to make use of mixers to whatever you feels just that from the announcement, any post relating to mixers won't be allowed or sharing links and directing someone over here to start making use of. You can discuss about mixer outside the forum you have no law but do not relate it to this site again. Any mixer you are planning to used be sure the authority aren't planning to ceased it otherwise whatever trace can be subjected to you as well, so using it is at your own risk.

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Quote from: bitcoin talk on December 18, 2023, 09:38:59 PM

Anything to worry about if you use mixers and not doing anything illegal?
Will any one come knocking on your door if you use mixers and not doing anything illegal?
Will posts like this be banned too after Jan?
Will using mixers be an expensive?

A member of the forum got a message from one of these centralised exchanges for him to clarify how he got funds from the wallet of Sinbad campaign. However, there have been no reports of anyone being questioned when the fund is transferred to a decentralized exchange. Mixers are legal in many countries but the government is scared that they could be misused. You don't have to worry if you are using mixers to mix legally acquired coins but it is better to avoid centralised platforms.

Quote from: hugeblack on December 19, 2023, 06:19:58 AM

There is a draft law being prepared for it to be passed and become a law. Even in the United States, the use of a mixer is considered legal, and all the problem that occurred because of Sinbad’s signature was because the address of the signature campaign for that mixer was included in the OFAC list, but you can still spend your coins to any party that does not support OFAC lists, especially since most mining pools do not adhere to it.

If the bill is passed into law exchanges and other crypto service providers will be mandated to record and report information about transactions that they suspect involve crypto mixers. The law will formally designate mixers as an area of “primary money laundering concern in the US.

Yaunfitda

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Quote from: bitcoin talk on December 18, 2023, 09:38:59 PM

Anything to worry about if you use mixers and not doing anything illegal?
Will any one come knocking on your door if you use mixers and not doing anything illegal?
Will posts like this be banned too after Jan?
Will using mixers be an expensive?

If you know that you are not doing anything illegal and just using mixers for your privacy then why you have to worry though? Nah, I don't think that someone men in black will come knocking at your door just because you used mixers. They are still legal to use per se.

For the post about banning mixers here, you can read: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/mixers-to-be-banned-5476162

Well if the fees are going to be expensive, then maybe mixers will be expensive too. Some of them though are advertised as free.

BenCodie

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Quote from: bitcoin talk on December 18, 2023, 09:38:59 PM

Anything to worry about if you use mixers and not doing anything illegal?

Yes, as there is currently a hunt ongoing for mixers, and for users of mixers. It depends more and less so based on if the mixer has been seized or proven to have illegitimate involvement, but nonetheless, I would be taking precautions, especially if you are using centralized services.

Quote from: bitcoin talk on December 18, 2023, 09:38:59 PM

Will any one come knocking on your door if you use mixers and not doing anything illegal?

Probably not if you've done nothing illegitimate. Though the thing to be worried about is being asked for KYC on virtually any centralized service. As users said, that's fine, just use decentralized and p2p services instead.

Quote from: bitcoin talk on December 18, 2023, 09:38:59 PM

Will posts like this be banned too after Jan?

No, as others said - no promotion, no link sharing = OK.

Quote from: bitcoin talk on December 18, 2023, 09:38:59 PM

Will using mixers be an expensive?

Maybe it will create temporary competition, maybe costs will go up, maybe they'll stay the same. Technically, less spent on marketing means savings for the company, so I don't see why costs would go up.

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