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Topic: Are we stress testing again? (Read 33190 times)

legendary
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January 18, 2016, 07:56:43 AM
We have 100 times more hashrate than we would need to secure the network.
We can not switch off 99% miners off today
Because this will unsecure the network tomorrow Smiley
Switched off miners can be used for creating alternate mainchain

That's true but it means too that mining as a business is very rewarding, otherwise we would not have so many people wanting to take part. Which means that raising fees in order to compensate for block halving and ensuring that miners earn more is not needed at all. Miners had to switch off their old and not profitable miners all the time. Mostly new hardware replaced it but there is no bad in lowering the reward so that less miners than we have now would take part in mining.

For sure miners will think differently but in order to having a future for bitcoin it would be sane to not look for the short term profit only.
legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1019
January 17, 2016, 09:13:57 AM
We have 100 times more hashrate than we would need to secure the network.
We can not switch off 99% miners off today
Because this will unsecure the network tomorrow Smiley
Switched off miners can be used for creating alternate mainchain
legendary
Activity: 2674
Merit: 1083
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January 17, 2016, 09:03:59 AM
Let's face it - Bitcoin started in Jan 2009.  We are in Jan 2016 - 7 years later.  Look around...  My car didn't last this long...

1.  Bitcoin network has not been broken, DDOS, or taken over
2.  Bitcoin network hash rate is still increasing (why?)
3.  Why - why - why ?


1. Yes, no real problems till now... now we have an artificial limit that cripples the network slowly. That was never a problem before. Now it is. I think this is an experiment on the open heart. Very dangerous.

2. Obviously mining is so lucrative that miners still think they should mine more. We have 100 times more hashrate than we would need to secure the network. And now the guys come out that claim we need higher fees because... the poor miners. Mining is a survival of the fittest, no job that can be taken and we all have to pay for it regardless how many want to do that job. There is no right on mining with profit.

legendary
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January 17, 2016, 08:50:19 AM
Bitcoin is for international, or cross country transactions, or internet store purchases.  Not for person-to-person purchases.
LOL.
Bitcoin is A Peer-to-Peer Electronic Cash System. Proof: https://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf
Let's be practical her; what I meant, is that it is not really designed to be a face-to-face payment system.  A Peer-to-peer system always implies a "distance" between the "peers".


They still would be peers even when standing right face to face. It simply means a way to interact with other parties. It has the advantage that it can be done through distances but there is no rule that says that there has to be a distance. It's irrelevant for data how far they need to travel through the internet.
legendary
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January 17, 2016, 08:46:31 AM
Bitcoin was designed around the business model of gold discovery.  When is the last time someone paid for a Starbucks coffee with gold?

Um, when you already go around in comparisions then you should know what happened when the goldrushs took place in america. The gold digger used their gold to bring them to the saloon to buy alcohol and girls.

And when you want to offer an alternative to fiat bank money, like satoshi wanted, then it would be ridiculous to think of it as a currency only for the banks or the rich. The poor people would have to use something inferiour. That is plain stupid and elitist thinking. Bitcoin is for everyone, not only for some rich guys who want to push their black money over state borders.

You are funny - I like you!

Thank you. I like you too. Smiley

First - By design, micro-transactions are not possible on the actual Bitcoin network (think Starbucks coffees) due to networks limits.  Maybe with ChangeTip offline networks, or any other you could.

Changetip isn't anything like bitcoin. It's centralized and in no way something you can use as an alternative to bank money. It is easily controllable and misses the advantages bitcoin has.

Yeah, network limits. I think you might take the 1mb blocksize limit as a given natural constant. It's not like you know.

Second - Satoshi did not meant to replace Fiat.  Read again the first sentence of his White Paper.  He intended to provide a Peer-to-peer way to transfer money over the Internet (read insecure network).   Why would you feel the need to transfer money over the internet if you are not physically away from each other... Being in front of each other, fiat can work.  Being a continent away, internet is best, bitcoin is best....

Well, when you would hate the banking system and you think of an alternative, coming up with an encrypted currency on the internet... how would you describe it differently than the citation you wrote? Do you really think a whitepaper is the place where you put in your political views, your critics on the banking system, your wish to free the people from that system? Surely not.

Third - having relatives abroad is not a novelty, being elitist, or stupid... Millions of people worldwide have relatives abroad that they want to send money to... Is this black money over state borders?  I don't think so.

Yes, but this should be the end of bitcoin? That's all it can provide in your eyes? Even when, why should someone send money that way when the fees will rise so high that you might even use other services? Because the state should not see it? And why use a bitcoin network where you never know if your fee, you put into, is good enough to make the transaction go through? You will have to worry if you paid too few and the then unreliable network will not forward your coins. Since there would be others that have the same problem and maybe they paid more so that you are, even when you thought you paid enough, will lose. Well, again, better use another service then.

In short, bitcoin will die that way. Maybe some rich guys, and that is elitist thinking when some of the 1mb block fans dream of a high amount payment system named bitcoin, that only works with high fees that are higher than the average third world country person can pay? That wouldn't be a currency for the people anymore, it would be a currency for the rich people in the world. And that is elitist thinking when you don't care about such points. Bitcoin should be an alternative for everyone.

Bitcoin is for international, or cross country transactions, or internet store purchases.  Not for person-to-person purchases.


Well, that indeed is a relatively new view on the topic. I see you are only two years less involved with bitcoin than iam but the first years everyone wanted adoption and bitcoin being used for all kind of transactions. And you still should know that it was that way. Now some guys think it's needed to artificially cripple bitcoin so that it loses a couple of it's rare advantages.
legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1019
January 17, 2016, 06:58:57 AM
I'll give you the answer. Because most users/miners/devs/VCs/companies involved in Bitcoin believe that greater adoption and increased price is the eventual future of Bitcoin.
... and all other people do not believe  Grin
legendary
Activity: 1442
Merit: 1001
January 17, 2016, 06:43:07 AM
Let's face it - Bitcoin started in Jan 2009.  We are in Jan 2016 - 7 years later.  Look around...  My car didn't last this long...

1.  Bitcoin network has not been broken, DDOS, or taken over
2.  Bitcoin network hash rate is still increasing (why?)
3.  Why - why - why ?


I'll give you the answer. Because most users/miners/devs/VCs/companies involved in Bitcoin believe that greater adoption and increased price is the eventual future of Bitcoin.
legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1019
January 17, 2016, 03:37:01 AM
What I meant, is that it is not really designed to be a face-to-face payment system.  A Peer-to-peer system always imply a "distance" between the "peers".
The currency designed only for big cross-border transfers or internet online payments - is nonsence.
What would the merchant do with money if he can not buy a bread and milk with them in local store?
legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1019
January 17, 2016, 03:24:55 AM
Bitcoin is for international, or cross country transactions, or internet store purchases.  Not for person-to-person purchases.
LOL.
Bitcoin is A Peer-to-Peer Electronic Cash System. Proof: https://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf
legendary
Activity: 2674
Merit: 1083
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January 16, 2016, 06:09:49 PM
Bitcoin was designed around the business model of gold discovery.  When is the last time someone paid for a Starbucks coffee with gold?

Um, when you already go around in comparisions then you should know what happened when the goldrushs took place in america. The gold digger used their gold to bring them to the saloon to buy alcohol and girls.

And when you want to offer an alternative to fiat bank money, like satoshi wanted, then it would be ridiculous to think of it as a currency only for the banks or the rich. The poor people would have to use something inferiour. That is plain stupid and elitist thinking. Bitcoin is for everyone, not only for some rich guys who want to push their black money over state borders.
legendary
Activity: 2674
Merit: 1083
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January 16, 2016, 05:55:54 PM
We can't have mega low fees for life that is a pretty delusional thought I think. Sure I think fees have to remain as low as possible for as long as possible but fees will have to eventually keep raising to not compromise decentralization of nodes.

Fees Per Block = number of trx * fee per trx

If the number of trx goes up dramatically, then fees per trx can remain low, possibly forever. Obviously lots of work needs to be done to get Bitcoin to scale well with larger blocks on enthusiast hardware, but it's not impossible.

Exactly this is the secret behind the success of bitcoin. The fee market instead will kill bitcoin because it will hinder adoption and in the long run the fees will not reach the level it could reach. Satoshi clearly calculated with the rising adoption when he came up with the block halving. He never wrote anything of restricting bitcoin so that not all transactions can be put into a block in order to raise fees and make bitcoin unreliable because you never know if your transaction will go through or not.

It's really painfull to see what's going on.
legendary
Activity: 1442
Merit: 1001
January 14, 2016, 08:26:36 AM
this is getting really frustrating now. I had 2 transactions stuck for a whole day during this nonsense.

the normal (standard) fee is no longer enough

Stuck transactions are an unfortunate result from substandard wallet design adding less than standard fees more often than not. What wallet were you using, if you don't mind sharing?
member
Activity: 70
Merit: 10
January 14, 2016, 12:43:52 AM
this is getting really frustrating now. I had 2 transactions stuck for a whole day during this nonsense.

the normal (standard) fee is no longer enough
legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1019
January 14, 2016, 12:05:11 AM
Until the Bitcoin network can find a way to get rid of "coin mixers", "casino bets", and "transactions < $1",  nothing will get resolved.  Block size don't matter.   My guess is that if you remove those three "spam" source of transactions, you will remove 80% of the crap on the network...
Excelent! But how to do it in decentralized network?

Quote
I believe that bitcoin is not a payment system, but an Asset Transfer System.
Bitcoin is ponzi pyramid.
legendary
Activity: 1442
Merit: 1001
January 13, 2016, 10:27:17 PM
Something to mull over. For all of those people that say "small blocks are fine, because Lightning Network", check out the following LN matrix:
--snip--

Assumptions and extrapolations

½ of txs are LN opens and closes
½ of LN closes and opens are merged
No non-cooperative closes
3 Channels per user
When indefinite, channels last 6 months

LLvl 1: 150 chan / year, 150 close, 75 open
LLvl 2: 6 chan / year, 6 close 3 open
LLvl 3: 6 chan / year, 6 close 3 open

Even with 32MB blocks and the soft forks needed to make LN most efficient, we only get to around 280M users. That's not exactly tiny but it's also not competing with credit cards anytime soon. Without big blocks, LN just can't scale period.
And how about using sidechains? Or segwit?

sidechains: even gmaxwell has said that sidechains aren't a scalability factor since miners and full nodes would have to process the same amount of data whether in a sidechain or on the mainnet
segwit: this will get us an equivalent of a 1.7X increase in blocksize as a softfork, presuming that everyone upgrades to segwit compatible wallets and starts to create segwit transactions.

Don't get me wrong, I think that Pieter Wuille and Luke-Jr's contributions on segwit are damned impressive, but it's not a huge scaling win. In 6 months from now, presuming everything goes very smoothly we'll get the equivalent of 1.7M blocks. We're gonna need bigger blocks or to turn away new users.

staff
Activity: 3458
Merit: 6793
Just writing some code
January 13, 2016, 09:34:20 PM
Something to mull over. For all of those people that say "small blocks are fine, because Lightning Network", check out the following LN matrix:
--snip--

Assumptions and extrapolations

½ of txs are LN opens and closes
½ of LN closes and opens are merged
No non-cooperative closes
3 Channels per user
When indefinite, channels last 6 months

LLvl 1: 150 chan / year, 150 close, 75 open
LLvl 2: 6 chan / year, 6 close 3 open
LLvl 3: 6 chan / year, 6 close 3 open

Even with 32MB blocks and the soft forks needed to make LN most efficient, we only get to around 280M users. That's not exactly tiny but it's also not competing with credit cards anytime soon. Without big blocks, LN just can't scale period.
And how about using sidechains? Or segwit?
legendary
Activity: 1442
Merit: 1001
January 13, 2016, 09:29:26 PM
Something to mull over. For all of those people that say "small blocks are fine, because Lightning Network", check out the following LN matrix:



Assumptions and extrapolations

½ of txs are LN opens and closes
½ of LN closes and opens are merged
No non-cooperative closes
3 Channels per user
When indefinite, channels last 6 months

LLvl 1: 150 chan / year, 150 close, 75 open
LLvl 2: 6 chan / year, 6 close 3 open
LLvl 3: 6 chan / year, 6 close 3 open

Even with 32MB blocks and the soft forks needed to make LN most efficient, we only get to around 280M users. That's not exactly tiny but it's also not competing with credit cards anytime soon. Without big blocks, LN just can't scale period.
legendary
Activity: 1442
Merit: 1001
January 13, 2016, 09:25:48 PM
We can't have mega low fees for life that is a pretty delusional thought I think. Sure I think fees have to remain as low as possible for as long as possible but fees will have to eventually keep raising to not compromise decentralization of nodes.

Fees Per Block = number of trx * fee per trx

If the number of trx goes up dramatically, then fees per trx can remain low, possibly forever. Obviously lots of work needs to be done to get Bitcoin to scale well with larger blocks on enthusiast hardware, but it's not impossible.
hero member
Activity: 700
Merit: 501
January 13, 2016, 06:08:28 PM
We can't have mega low fees for life that is a pretty delusional thought I think. Sure I think fees have to remain as low as possible for as long as possible but fees will have to eventually keep raising to not compromise decentralization of nodes.
legendary
Activity: 2674
Merit: 1083
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January 13, 2016, 06:05:53 PM
We are having around 8-10k unconfirmed transactions for the last few days.. Seems this is the new normal.

Well, some people want a "fee market" really badly. Roll Eyes As if the miners will stop mining when we don't raise the fees that have to be paid. In fact we could drop 99% of the hashrate and the network still would be secure. That we have 100 times more mining than needed only shows how well paid mining is. No need for a fee market at all.

Well, there is no alternative to support at the moment.
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