Topic: Arguing that a coin with a very low energy usage or "efficient", cannot exist (Read 625 times)
May 28, 2021, 09:53:07 AM
Now I am confused with the discussion while reading it. If we are talking about energy usage only(not talking about decentralization and security), then there are cryptocurrencies that is already existing with a much low power input needed compared to Bitcoin. The cryptocurrency isn't all about POW, there are POS, some even use ledgers. If we add security to it then that changes things.
May 28, 2021, 04:07:03 AM
FYI: Cardano Marketcap is $51,867,494,041 , hardly small.
I did not meant Cardano, but some really small market cap coin, because I use to see charts in the media comparing BTC with some unknown coin which of course used way less energy, hardly even visible on the chart.
May 28, 2021, 12:34:31 AM
Ask yourself this.... Let's say we shift to a Coin that are currently running on PoW with a low difficulty and low energy usage... Will it stay that way? Answer : No, it will not stay that way, because the whole Protocol are designed to increase the difficulty.. as more hashing power are added.
So the Alt coin that are currently using less energy than Bitcoin, will eventually use the same or more energy ..if more miners shift hashing power towards it.
Also, How do these so-called experts calculate the total "dirty" energy used, if they cannot determine how much of the energy is sourced from renewable energy sources? (Hydo electricity / Solar / Wind power etc... )
So the Alt coin that are currently using less energy than Bitcoin, will eventually use the same or more energy ..if more miners shift hashing power towards it.
Also, How do these so-called experts calculate the total "dirty" energy used, if they cannot determine how much of the energy is sourced from renewable energy sources? (Hydo electricity / Solar / Wind power etc... )
May 28, 2021, 12:16:25 AM
Quote
Despite news media crying that bitcoin is using too much energy, it's impossible to create a new crypto-coin which uses the same mining principles (so no private companies like Ripple or Visa) but at the same time will use 1% of bitcoin power usage. 1% forever, and not just in the beginning when only 50 people are mining.
Because that would mean that magic coin would cost let's say 1 dollar to mine a day but you would be able to sell it with $100, and that's just not possible. From an economic standpoint.
Because that would mean that magic coin would cost let's say 1 dollar to mine a day but you would be able to sell it with $100, and that's just not possible. From an economic standpoint.
Effectiveness and value are two completely different things.
You could mine a coin for 1 dollar and you could sell it for 1.25 USD or 1.07 USD(depends on market supply and demand).25 cents profit out of a 1 dollar coin is a pretty big profit.Imagine mining 100K coins valued at 1 dollar and selling them at a price above 1 dollar.
You are right that it's impossible to create a PoW coin that uses way less energy for mining,but maybe someday,a new concept will be created,that is as secure as PoW and consumes less energy.I'm not a fan of Proof-of-Stake coins.
May 28, 2021, 12:01:41 AM
You are talking now about the appreciation of a coin, and that's not constant. And not about mining/minting/farming.
Even Doge had a huge increase this year. And those big increases are typical of coins when they are in single digit values. And I'm sure there are other examples of coins with periods of much bigger increases than bitcoin.
But here in this topic I was mostly addressing the headlines. The people writing the news which I am under the impression they don't know what they are talking about and they want a POW coin to use much less energy, and comparing a coin with a huge market cap like bitcoin with an unknown coin with a very small market cap and how that coin uses much less energy. Nonsense like these.
Even Doge had a huge increase this year. And those big increases are typical of coins when they are in single digit values. And I'm sure there are other examples of coins with periods of much bigger increases than bitcoin.
But here in this topic I was mostly addressing the headlines. The people writing the news which I am under the impression they don't know what they are talking about and they want a POW coin to use much less energy, and comparing a coin with a huge market cap like bitcoin with an unknown coin with a very small market cap and how that coin uses much less energy. Nonsense like these.
What you should do is watch Ethereum when they finally make the move.
FYI: Cardano Marketcap is $51,867,494,041 , hardly small.
Thinking that Bitcoin miners will be allowed to continue wasting energy , that my friend is the nonsense.
Everyone has been aware the btc energy waste issue was growing since 2013, only bitcoiners refuse to accept it.
That is fine they don't have too, but they will have to abide by the growing bans and the harm it does to the fiat conversion price of btc.
May 27, 2021, 11:43:32 PM
You are talking now about the appreciation of a coin, and that's not constant. And not about mining/minting/farming.
Even Doge had a huge increase this year. And those big increases are typical of coins when they are in single digit values. And I'm sure there are other examples of coins with periods of much bigger increases than bitcoin.
But here in this topic I was mostly addressing the headlines. The people writing the news which I am under the impression they don't know what they are talking about and they want a POW coin to use much less energy, and comparing a coin with a huge market cap like bitcoin with an unknown coin with a very small market cap and how that coin uses much less energy. Nonsense like these.
Even Doge had a huge increase this year. And those big increases are typical of coins when they are in single digit values. And I'm sure there are other examples of coins with periods of much bigger increases than bitcoin.
But here in this topic I was mostly addressing the headlines. The people writing the news which I am under the impression they don't know what they are talking about and they want a POW coin to use much less energy, and comparing a coin with a huge market cap like bitcoin with an unknown coin with a very small market cap and how that coin uses much less energy. Nonsense like these.
May 27, 2021, 09:55:32 PM
Yes, I thought it might be a limitation like that and that's why I can't post images.
..............
About the ADA profitability calculator, it seems there are a few online. And if I did the calculations right, the profits are far far less. About 5% per year.
I knew there had to be a catch. And it seems that's the catch. The reason why not all miners migrate en masse to PoS coins mining.
On the other hand of course it's far easier to "mine" ADA, you just have to tick a box, and that's it. You are mining or minting. But if you are a person or a company who wants to make a profit, you will mine other types of coins. I'm not sure what are all of the implications of this, but there are some implications.
And so with ADA it's seems no economic laws are violated. No investing 5 dollars and getting 100 in returns. Which makes sense.
..............
About the ADA profitability calculator, it seems there are a few online. And if I did the calculations right, the profits are far far less. About 5% per year.
I knew there had to be a catch. And it seems that's the catch. The reason why not all miners migrate en masse to PoS coins mining.
On the other hand of course it's far easier to "mine" ADA, you just have to tick a box, and that's it. You are mining or minting. But if you are a person or a company who wants to make a profit, you will mine other types of coins. I'm not sure what are all of the implications of this, but there are some implications.
And so with ADA it's seems no economic laws are violated. No investing 5 dollars and getting 100 in returns. Which makes sense.
Actually if you have purchased $5 of ADA on Dec 18, 2020 at .16 cents per share,
you would have had 31.25.
At the peak in May, your 31.25 ada was worth $71.88 .
That was only the price rise without any staking.
FYI:
Bitcoin rate of return from Dec 18, 2020 to it recent peak was only 2.72X
While Cardano rate of return from Dec 18, 2020 to it recent peak was 14.37X .
So you would have earned more with Cardano than bitcoin in the same time period.
May 27, 2021, 08:10:35 PM
Yes, I thought it might be a limitation like that and that's why I can't post images.
..............
About the ADA profitability calculator, it seems there are a few online. And if I did the calculations right, the profits are far far less. About 5% per year.
I knew there had to be a catch. And it seems that's the catch. The reason why not all miners migrate en masse to PoS coins mining.
On the other hand of course it's far easier to "mine" ADA, you just have to tick a box, and that's it. You are mining or minting. But if you are a person or a company who wants to make a profit, you will mine other types of coins. I'm not sure what are all of the implications of this, but there are some implications.
And so with ADA it's seems no economic laws are violated. No investing 5 dollars and getting 100 in returns. Which makes sense.
..............
About the ADA profitability calculator, it seems there are a few online. And if I did the calculations right, the profits are far far less. About 5% per year.
I knew there had to be a catch. And it seems that's the catch. The reason why not all miners migrate en masse to PoS coins mining.
On the other hand of course it's far easier to "mine" ADA, you just have to tick a box, and that's it. You are mining or minting. But if you are a person or a company who wants to make a profit, you will mine other types of coins. I'm not sure what are all of the implications of this, but there are some implications.
And so with ADA it's seems no economic laws are violated. No investing 5 dollars and getting 100 in returns. Which makes sense.
May 27, 2021, 06:22:29 PM
I made a screenshot of this text today, from an article:
...
how do you post an image here ?
[ img ] image [ / img ] - doesn't work (without spaces)
...
how do you post an image here ?
[ img ] image [ / img ] - doesn't work (without spaces)
Sorry, I forgot you need to be at least a junior member and more ranking or you can also buy a copper membership to publish images.
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/guide-how-to-add-image-on-bitcoin-talk-post-4938495
May 27, 2021, 06:04:07 PM
Thanks OP for this post. You made references to this publication. Sometimes I like to cite posts so that other members can also document themselves.
What I think of Vitalik is good news for the current debate that we are concerned about the negative effect on the environment of the use of cryptocurrencies. Vitalik, please give it a try, don't be just advertisements. Bitcoin and cryptocurrencies are here to stay for which we must use it responsibly.
What I think of Vitalik is good news for the current debate that we are concerned about the negative effect on the environment of the use of cryptocurrencies. Vitalik, please give it a try, don't be just advertisements. Bitcoin and cryptocurrencies are here to stay for which we must use it responsibly.
Quote
The Ethereum Foundation wrote in its blog that if the switch to POS is successful, it could reduce Ethereum’s energy use by up to 99.95%. A POS Ethereum theoretically “consume something on the order of 2.62 megawatts,” the blog says. “This is not on the scale of countries… but that of a small town (around 2,100 American homes). For reference, POW consensus on Ethereum currently consumes the energy equivalent of a medium-sized country. "
https://fortune.com/2021/05/27/ethereum-founder-vitalik-buterin-proof-of-stake-environment-carbon/amp/
https://fortune.com/2021/05/27/ethereum-founder-vitalik-buterin-proof-of-stake-environment-carbon/amp/
May 27, 2021, 05:35:08 PM
I made a screenshot of this text today, from an article:
https://i.ibb.co/xgRq0yg/191692271-1126145944564728-4387734155474816615-n.png
So Vitalik Buterin says it might reduce the power usage by up to 99.95%. But what would that really mean ? Would that mean the cost of "producing" one ETH will really decrease by 99.95% ?
I still haven't heard or read an explanation about how do the economies of POS coins really work.
With bitcoin things are fairly known, there are even btc profitability calculators online. I think I remember reading that if you invest $500 you will get about $500 back in profits. So.. probably about 100% profit per year ?
Is there a profitability calculator for Cardano or another POS coin ?
.............
how do you post an image here ?
[ img ] image [ / img ] - doesn't work (without spaces)
https://i.ibb.co/xgRq0yg/191692271-1126145944564728-4387734155474816615-n.png
So Vitalik Buterin says it might reduce the power usage by up to 99.95%. But what would that really mean ? Would that mean the cost of "producing" one ETH will really decrease by 99.95% ?
I still haven't heard or read an explanation about how do the economies of POS coins really work.
With bitcoin things are fairly known, there are even btc profitability calculators online. I think I remember reading that if you invest $500 you will get about $500 back in profits. So.. probably about 100% profit per year ?
Is there a profitability calculator for Cardano or another POS coin ?
.............
how do you post an image here ?
[ img ] image [ / img ] - doesn't work (without spaces)
May 27, 2021, 09:52:34 AM
Speaking of agendas, do you still hide the fact that you used to be called Lauda.
Cool, so I'm like the dozenth name on the list of people you've said are alts of Lauda. What's it like having zero imagination and responding to every single person in the same way?
Some of us have enough spinal fortitude to stand by their one and only account and not attempt to mask their past mistakes. It's called personal growth. You should give it a try some time.
You don't need to worry about me , you need to worry about the ones banning bitcoin because of it's energy waste.
Yes, that 1.025% of the world's nations claiming that they've banned it while in practice still contributing to the hashrate sure is a concern. What ever will we do?
You make fake guesses pretending you know who I am,
why should I not do the same to you Lauda.
You know since you think everyone claiming anything about bitcoin PoW is a problem is the same person,
when are you going to start calling me Elon.
I imagine you will keep claiming PoW is not a problem , until a Non-PoW coin takes the #1 spot away from bitcoin.
After that a swift fix for the PoW energy failure will begin to save bitcoin and the planet, but that #1 spot will never be regained.
Do you also think I am the person that did all of the following reporting.
https://www.treehugger.com/ban-bitcoin-5094352
Speaking of agendas, do you still hide the fact that you used to be called Lauda.
Cool, so I'm like the dozenth name on the list of people you've said are alts of Lauda. What's it like having zero imagination and responding to every single person in the same way?I've always been a bit surprised that after 9 years on this forum nobody ever figured out that I was Lauda.
1. You need to post more cat pics
2. Ignore reality like Doomad/Lauda does.
3. Always post to help Wind_Fury aka T-Man, the 12 year old against anyone pointing out problems in BTC.
And your Secret will be Out.
May 27, 2021, 08:16:50 AM
Speaking of agendas, do you still hide the fact that you used to be called Lauda.
Cool, so I'm like the dozenth name on the list of people you've said are alts of Lauda. What's it like having zero imagination and responding to every single person in the same way?I've always been a bit surprised that after 9 years on this forum nobody ever figured out that I was Lauda.
May 27, 2021, 04:41:22 AM
Speaking of agendas, do you still hide the fact that you used to be called Lauda.
Cool, so I'm like the dozenth name on the list of people you've said are alts of Lauda. What's it like having zero imagination and responding to every single person in the same way?
Some of us have enough spinal fortitude to stand by their one and only account and not attempt to mask their past mistakes. It's called personal growth. You should give it a try some time.
You don't need to worry about me , you need to worry about the ones banning bitcoin because of it's energy waste.
Yes, that 1.025% of the world's nations claiming that they've banned it while in practice still contributing to the hashrate sure is a concern. What ever will we do?
May 26, 2021, 10:59:25 PM
Here something for you to think on.
On CMK positions.
1. Bitcoin PoW
2. Ethereum PoW converting to PoS
3. Tether , Token
4. Binance , Token
5. Cardano, Pure PoS
6. XRP , Consensus
Like I said earlier when a nonPoW coin sits on #1, only then will it sink in with bitcoiners how much energy efficiently really matters.
On CMK positions.
1. Bitcoin PoW
2. Ethereum PoW converting to PoS
3. Tether , Token
4. Binance , Token
5. Cardano, Pure PoS
6. XRP , Consensus
Like I said earlier when a nonPoW coin sits on #1, only then will it sink in with bitcoiners how much energy efficiently really matters.
The agenda is more than a little transparent here. You only pretend to care about energy efficiency and the environmental impact of PoW because you peddle a PoS shitcoin. You want to shout from the rooftops, "hey, look at these (currently) successful projects and mine should also be successful by proxy for some reason". Except it doesn't work like that.
Speaking of agendas, do you still hide the fact that you used to be called Lauda.
You don't need to worry about me , you need to worry about the ones banning bitcoin because of it's energy waste.
Your weak false trolling matters little, as it has no effect on the growing bans of an energy waste problem ignored by bitcoiners since 2013.
But yet, tried to make bitcoiner's environmental failures about me.
FYI:
https://www.treehugger.com/ban-bitcoin-5094352
Quote
Make Bitcoin carbon neutral with renewables or credits, or ban them.
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/02/05/bitcoin-btc-surge-renews-worries-about-its-massive-carbon-footprint.html
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2021/feb/27/bitcoin-mining-electricity-use-environmental-impact
https://fortune.com/2021/05/25/bitcoin-mining-china-pledge-btc-environment-crack-down/
https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/can-we-prevent-a-global-energy-crisis-from-bitcoin-mining
https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-56215787
https://www.zerohedge.com/crypto/85-mining-farms-unlicensed-iran-bans-crypto-mining-blackouts-grow-summer
Quote
Iran Bans Crypto Mining As Blackouts Grow Into Summer:
May 26, 2021, 08:07:52 PM
In a POW system, miners need to spend their coins mined to cover the cost eventually, which means a redistribution of coins.
However in a POS system, the cost of machines and energy is cut to an indifferent level. There would be no such forced redistribution as POW coins.
However in a POS system, the cost of machines and energy is cut to an indifferent level. There would be no such forced redistribution as POW coins.
And so the reason why miners will also sell their coins for the higher price regardless of whether they use green energy or coal, the price will still go up making the cryptocurrencies also go up. If the miners get these coins for almost no cost, like the ones we are just staking, stakers will also be selling them for less price.
BTC will always be the preferred coin this is why even if they find a way to ban or not accept BTC coming from Chinese miners, nothing is going to change.
1 BTC will always be 1BTC.
May 26, 2021, 07:58:18 PM
In a POW system, miners need to spend their coins mined to cover the cost eventually, which means a redistribution of coins.
However in a POS system, the cost of machines and energy is cut to an indifferent level. There would be no such forced redistribution as POW coins.
However in a POS system, the cost of machines and energy is cut to an indifferent level. There would be no such forced redistribution as POW coins.
May 26, 2021, 06:31:33 PM
Here something for you to think on.
On CMK positions.
1. Bitcoin PoW
2. Ethereum PoW converting to PoS
3. Tether , Token
4. Binance , Token
5. Cardano, Pure PoS
6. XRP , Consensus
Like I said earlier when a nonPoW coin sits on #1, only then will it sink in with bitcoiners how much energy efficiently really matters.
On CMK positions.
1. Bitcoin PoW
2. Ethereum PoW converting to PoS
3. Tether , Token
4. Binance , Token
5. Cardano, Pure PoS
6. XRP , Consensus
Like I said earlier when a nonPoW coin sits on #1, only then will it sink in with bitcoiners how much energy efficiently really matters.
The agenda is more than a little transparent here. You only pretend to care about energy efficiency and the environmental impact of PoW because you peddle a PoS shitcoin. You want to shout from the rooftops, "hey, look at these (currently) successful projects and mine should also be successful by proxy for some reason". Except it doesn't work like that.
kids breathe in more polluted air
Spare us the 'Helen Lovejoy' routine. Say, if they ever invented aircraft that ran on PoS, then you could pretend to care about the environmental impact of those too.
Isn't it shameful how wasteful it is to burn jet fuel. Won't somebody please think of the children?
May 26, 2021, 05:51:35 PM
I honestly don't care about the energy that much. There are so many other activities governments do that pollute the environment. This definitely isn't a reason to block the world's fairest currency's supply from being created.
The people that struggle to pay increased electricity rates and their kids breathe in more polluted air because of bitcoin PoW miners have a different opinion than yours.
May 26, 2021, 01:55:03 PM
Like I said earlier when a nonPoW coin sits on #1, only then will it sink in with bitcoiners how much energy efficiently really matters.
Yeah, because it's like those seeking privacy and using dumb phones instead of smartphones. For them, it's the privacy that matters more than any other function today's smartphones have, so they trade new tech for old, more privacy-offering phones instead.I honestly don't care about the energy that much. There are so many other activities governments do that pollute the environment. This definitely isn't a reason to block the world's fairest currency's supply from being created.
Jump to: