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Topic: Armory - Discussion Thread - page 99. (Read 521829 times)

legendary
Activity: 1112
Merit: 1000
September 21, 2013, 01:44:14 PM
It really isn't about what you can afford, it's about what you can do.  If you're on a laptop with an SSD, you have 128GTB, maybe 256GB if it's a new one.

You can get 960 GB and 1 TB SSDs for 2.5", even for mSATA (480 GB, but you can place 2 of them)

Don't talk to me about price though, doubles the value of the laptop ;-)
hero member
Activity: 533
Merit: 500
^Bitcoin Library of Congress.
September 21, 2013, 12:42:58 PM
When the blockchain starts getting into the hundreds of GBs, I suspect that most normal bitcoin users will be using Armory in "lite mode" that doesn't require the blockchain locally at all.

I just bought a 1 Tb disk for 0.5 btc. When the blockchain gets into the hundreds of Gb, we'll be able to buy 1 Pb disks for the same amount of money and I will happily get a disk to store the blockchain and support the network with a full node.
I'm to cheap to buy a 1TB disk, I just used 3 500Gb disks and RAIDed them together to get a 1TB RAID 5 disk. Wink

P.S. Great work etotheipi!  I can't wait for the updates your working on. Grin
legendary
Activity: 2126
Merit: 1001
September 21, 2013, 07:07:06 AM
When the blockchain starts getting into the hundreds of GBs, I suspect that most normal bitcoin users will be using Armory in "lite mode" that doesn't require the blockchain locally at all.

I just bought a 1 Tb disk for 0.5 btc. When the blockchain gets into the hundreds of Gb, we'll be able to buy 1 Pb disks for the same amount of money and I will happily get a disk to store the blockchain and support the network with a full node.

I see what you did here! :-)

Ente
KS
sr. member
Activity: 448
Merit: 250
September 21, 2013, 05:21:15 AM
Anything new on the message-signing front? Is it still un-encrypt/encrypt again? I thought jackjack was working on sth but couldn't find an update (or missed it).

@Alan: Congrats! Now that you're incorporated and funded, I can't wait for the LTC version of Armory! Grin
legendary
Activity: 1974
Merit: 1029
September 21, 2013, 05:10:33 AM
When the blockchain starts getting into the hundreds of GBs, I suspect that most normal bitcoin users will be using Armory in "lite mode" that doesn't require the blockchain locally at all.

I just bought a 1 Tb disk for 0.5 btc. When the blockchain gets into the hundreds of Gb, we'll be able to buy 1 Pb disks for the same amount of money and I will happily get a disk to store the blockchain and support the network with a full node.
hero member
Activity: 563
Merit: 500
September 21, 2013, 03:14:23 AM
Right, but on a laptop increasing either is often hard.

Sure, the RAM reduce work you're doing is appreciated - of course I'd rather have the blockchain on disk than in RAM.  But not everyone has 1TB of anything.  Fortunately 128GB will, I hope, be enough in the short term.

roy
I don't think that argument holds up with modern laptops. Most of them have "hotswap" ports, where you just slide a HDD in. You can alternately simply connect an external HDD either via USB, or maybe even wirelessly via BT (not sure if those exist, yet).

Oh, sure I can use an external drive.... but having to lug one around seriously impacts the portability of my computer.  Anyway, none of this is intended to be a criticism of Armory - I'm very appreciative of the work that etotheipi has done and continues to do.  I'm just pushing back against this idea that resources are somehow infinite because you can always upgrade your machine.  That's clearly not true (and if it were there'd be no need for the ram reduction etotheipi is working on).

roy

EDIT: Fortunately I don't think anyone is seriously saying the cost of reducing the RAM usage below 4GB will be to increase the disk usage above 1TB - so this discussion is somewhat academic Smiley
donator
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1015
September 21, 2013, 02:32:15 AM
Right, but on a laptop increasing either is often hard.

Sure, the RAM reduce work you're doing is appreciated - of course I'd rather have the blockchain on disk than in RAM.  But not everyone has 1TB of anything.  Fortunately 128GB will, I hope, be enough in the short term.

roy
I don't think that argument holds up with modern laptops. Most of them have "hotswap" ports, where you just slide a HDD in. You can alternately simply connect an external HDD either via USB, or maybe even wirelessly via BT (not sure if those exist, yet).
legendary
Activity: 3766
Merit: 1364
Armory Developer
September 20, 2013, 09:56:48 PM
I've just successfully compiled my own take at LevelDB on MSVC. I need to bench it, test the x64 build and write a guide so that you can upgrade the project with newer versions as they come.

It's late now and I won't be around on Saturday nor for the best part of Sunday. Expect delivery at best on Sunday night.
hero member
Activity: 496
Merit: 500
September 20, 2013, 07:27:54 PM
It really isn't about what you can afford, it's about what you can do.  If you're on a laptop with an SSD, you have 128GTB, maybe 256GB if it's a new one.

Sure that's enough for now.... but what's this 2TB you're going to plug in to your laptop and how is it going to work?

You can't really compare the size of the blockchain in many years to hard drive sizes today...

Anyway, with Armory storing its data on disk, you can run Bitcoin on another computer, so you're back to just 1x block data on your laptop.
newbie
Activity: 16
Merit: 0
September 20, 2013, 05:27:29 PM

Right, but on a laptop increasing either is often hard.

Sure, the RAM reduce work you're doing is appreciated - of course I'd rather have the blockchain on disk than in RAM.  But not everyone has 1TB of anything.  Fortunately 128GB will, I hope, be enough in the short term.

roy

When the blockchain starts getting into the hundreds of GBs, I suspect that most normal bitcoin users will be using Armory in "lite mode" that doesn't require the blockchain locally at all. 

Fortunately, I think that date is long enough into the future that Alan and co. should have this "lite mode" working well by then.
hero member
Activity: 563
Merit: 500
September 20, 2013, 05:23:16 PM
Is that true?  Pretty sure it used to be the case that Gnome was way more of a resource hog than Windows.

Maybe Linux desktops have got better (and Windows worse) in this respect...
legendary
Activity: 1428
Merit: 1093
Core Armory Developer
September 20, 2013, 05:12:40 PM
I'd also point out that Armory 0.87 still seems to work on my little old Macbook Air (OS X 10.6; 4GB RAM; 128B SSD).  Not sure it will much longer, and tbh I'm surprised it does now.  Kinda cool that it does though

I believe it still works on Linux and OSX systems with 4GB if you are running nothing else.  Windows has significantly higher resource usage for some reason.  It's most likely that Armory uses the same amount of RAM, but Windows likes to eat up 1 GB of RAM just to use the OS, whereas Linux uses like 100-300 MB. 

Meh, it won't matter shortly Smiley
hero member
Activity: 563
Merit: 500
September 20, 2013, 05:10:08 PM
I'd also point out that Armory 0.87 still seems to work on my little old Macbook Air (OS X 10.6; 4GB RAM; 128B SSD).  Not sure it will much longer, and tbh I'm surprised it does now.  Kinda cool that it does though

roy
hero member
Activity: 563
Merit: 500
September 20, 2013, 05:04:10 PM
At the rate the bitcoin blockchain grows in size, 2.2x the growth worries me a lot more than 1x growth.

It really shouldn't. Doubling the storage requirements is mathematically very little. If you can afford to store 10 GB, you can almost assuredly afford to store 20 GB. If you can afford to store 1 TB you can almost assuredly afford to store 2 TB.

It really isn't about what you can afford, it's about what you can do.  If you're on a laptop with an SSD, you have 128GTB, maybe 256GB if it's a new one.

Sure that's enough for now.... but what's this 2TB you're going to plug in to your laptop and how is it going to work?

roy

The point is that increasing disk space on an arbitrary system is usually much easier then increasing RAM.  Most consumer motherboards currently max out at 32 GB, and the blockchain might be that big 12 months from now.  You can get yourself a crazy $10,000 server that is expandable up to 192 GB of RAM... but even many older consumer PCs now can hook up a HDD through (e)SATA and get 2 TB for less than $100.



Right, but on a laptop increasing either is often hard.

Sure, the RAM reduce work you're doing is appreciated - of course I'd rather have the blockchain on disk than in RAM.  But not everyone has 1TB of anything.  Fortunately 128GB will, I hope, be enough in the short term.

roy
legendary
Activity: 1428
Merit: 1093
Core Armory Developer
September 20, 2013, 04:57:57 PM
At the rate the bitcoin blockchain grows in size, 2.2x the growth worries me a lot more than 1x growth.

It really shouldn't. Doubling the storage requirements is mathematically very little. If you can afford to store 10 GB, you can almost assuredly afford to store 20 GB. If you can afford to store 1 TB you can almost assuredly afford to store 2 TB.

It really isn't about what you can afford, it's about what you can do.  If you're on a laptop with an SSD, you have 128GTB, maybe 256GB if it's a new one.

Sure that's enough for now.... but what's this 2TB you're going to plug in to your laptop and how is it going to work?

roy

The point is that increasing disk space on an arbitrary system is usually much easier then increasing RAM.  Most consumer motherboards currently max out at 32 GB, and the blockchain might be that big 12 months from now.  You can get yourself a crazy $10,000 server that is expandable up to 192 GB of RAM... but even many older consumer PCs now can hook up a HDD through (e)SATA and get 2 TB for less than $100.

hero member
Activity: 563
Merit: 500
September 20, 2013, 04:54:26 PM
At the rate the bitcoin blockchain grows in size, 2.2x the growth worries me a lot more than 1x growth.

It really shouldn't. Doubling the storage requirements is mathematically very little. If you can afford to store 10 GB, you can almost assuredly afford to store 20 GB. If you can afford to store 1 TB you can almost assuredly afford to store 2 TB.

It really isn't about what you can afford, it's about what you can do.  If you're on a laptop with an SSD, you have 128GTB, maybe 256GB if it's a new one.

Sure that's enough for now.... but what's this 2TB you're going to plug in to your laptop and how is it going to work?

roy
cp1
hero member
Activity: 616
Merit: 500
Stop using branwallets
September 20, 2013, 10:56:56 AM
At the rate the bitcoin blockchain grows in size, 2.2x the growth worries me a lot more than 1x growth.

It really shouldn't. Doubling the storage requirements is mathematically very little. If you can afford to store 10 GB, you can almost assuredly afford to store 20 GB. If you can afford to store 1 TB you can almost assuredly afford to store 2 TB.

Yes, while doubling RAM isn't so simple due to limited RAM slots on most personal computers, meaning you have to usually throw some sticks out to add more.  Most personal computers though have room to add an extra HDD.  And I don't think RAM prices scale linearly like HDD storage.
hero member
Activity: 496
Merit: 500
September 20, 2013, 10:51:05 AM
At the rate the bitcoin blockchain grows in size, 2.2x the growth worries me a lot more than 1x growth.

It really shouldn't. Doubling the storage requirements is mathematically very little. If you can afford to store 10 GB, you can almost assuredly afford to store 20 GB. If you can afford to store 1 TB you can almost assuredly afford to store 2 TB.
donator
Activity: 1419
Merit: 1015
September 20, 2013, 09:51:48 AM
Andy (currently my first and only team member) is helping setup a new Windows installer (using NSIS) that will Do The Right Thing when it installs Armory -- no more mysterious errors that require uninstalling and reinstalling Armory.   It will also have more installation options.  And it will look slick Smiley

Like an MSI package for silent installation? That sounds great!
hero member
Activity: 490
Merit: 500
September 20, 2013, 02:25:07 AM
It's probably a seriously non-trivial thing to do, code wise.  Mostly the reason I was curious is that this kind of update would effectively double the hard drive demands of bitcoin since you'd have the 11.9 GB of the blockchain that bitcoin-qt manages, and the (presumably also) 11.9 GB of space that Armory would require from what you mentioned earlier.  24 GB is kind of a lot of space just to be able to keep Armory running happily, even in the era of hard drives with a lot of space.

2.2x the blockchain size is a lot of space especially when the blockchain is 50 GB.  But if you're going to go put 128 GB of RAM in your server, it'll be a lot cheaper to just buy a single 2 TB HDD for $80 which will sustain you for another year or two even at absolute maximum blockchain growth.

Also, the alternative is that you only hold 1x the blockchain.  Obviously, it's less than 2.2x, but it's the same order of magnitude, which means if 2.2x is enough for you to be concerned, 1x is still a lot. 

A workaround that doesn't involve any work for me:  make yourself a RAM disk and put all the data on there.  It should be fast as hell.  But of course, everything goes poof on a power-cycle. 

As I said, I'll think about how it might be done.  Especially if DB performance becomes a real issue.  But I might wait until that happens before I put too much effort into the RAM solution.

At the rate the bitcoin blockchain grows in size, 2.2x the growth worries me a lot more than 1x growth.  But you're right about cost, it's a lot cheaper to buy a really big hard drive than it is to buy a ton of RAM.  That said, I do think the hard drive solution is the right way to go since hard drive space is generally much more plentiful than RAM. 
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