ASICMINER: Entering the Future of ASIC Mining by Inventing It - page 1341.

DutchBrat

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Quote from: eb3full on August 19, 2012, 02:51:50 PM

Quote from: DutchBrat on August 19, 2012, 02:34:23 PM

I don't understand the need to change the business model.... You say ASICMINER needs at least $100K to work out.... I thought it was $200K

200k shares were issued but the target was to make at least $100k from the IPO or it would be refunded. NRE costs $90k and the extra $10k was for financial buffer to pay for PCBs, testing etc.

I read the OP and they were indeed targeting a minimum of $100K

So then there is as of yet nothing to worry about.... 8.000 BTC already raised, 7.000 BTC is pledged (although it is not sure how much of that will actually be fulfilled of course)

15.000 X $ 7.80 (as of the time of writing) = $ 117.000

Now nobody knows of course what the $ value of a Bitcoin will be when the IPO closes, but I like to be optimistic

I myself don't see the vlaue of BTC crashing.... if that were the case I would certainly NOT invest in an ASIC, but I do see a bright future for Bitcoin, that's why I like the part mining concept of this stock...Only selling the hardware has got nothing to do with Bitcoin itself... you might just as well be selling an ASIC for SETI or WorldGrid

Anyway, again my wish would be to see how the IPO ends.... but again... let's leave that up to Friedcat and his friends before we start flooding the tread with how we think they should change their business model

eb3full

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Quote from: DutchBrat on August 19, 2012, 02:34:23 PM

I don't understand the need to change the business model.... You say ASICMINER needs at least $100K to work out.... I thought it was $200K

200k shares were issued but the target was to make at least $100k from the IPO or it would be refunded. NRE costs $90k and the extra $10k was for financial buffer to pay for PCBs, testing etc.

Quote from: DutchBrat on August 19, 2012, 02:34:23 PM

Anyway.... upon re-reading your post it leads me to believe you are not one of the people behind the ASICMINER project, but just concerned about your investment (?) so let's let one of the spokespersons for ASICMINER handle the remainder of the IPO

Actually I have 5000 shares and I was in the board meeting earlier.. You're quoting financial figures that are outdated because of the recent crash. None of the BTC invested so far have been liquidated. We are not set to meet our IPO target at this rate.

Quote from: Jutarul on August 19, 2012, 02:39:00 PM

Quote from: eb3full on August 19, 2012, 02:05:26 PM

I believe the BTC exchange rate is going to plummet, leaving this IPO untenable without an enormous campaign for new funding. This is a shame, because everything I've seen indicates that the individuals behind this are best located and resourced to make this happen. We need at least $100k for this to work out, and we nearly had this before this crash. If BFL succeeds in flooding the market with new mining rigs at the new rate it may be impossible to bring a new ASIC startup to market for another 6-8 months while Bitcoin rebounds.

Of course, ASICMINER's goal should be to sell hardware, and every day that the rate decreases it seems more of a priority for us. For that reason, I propose a change in the the business model.

We will only sell well-tested hardware. We will not mine anything for the purpose of paying for development.
We will accept preorders for a fixed rate (enough to reach the NRE and then some), but provide rebates to customers when their order is fulfilled which fairly reimburses them for changes in the mining ROI.
We will commit to fulfilling orders of at least 16TH by the end of the year, but hopefully more before then. (This is the most conservative estimate I'm willing to propose, but perhaps friedcat can enlighten us.)

It's sad that we have to resort to preorders for units, but really that's the only way to compete with BFL's slimy practices. To make up for it, the least we could do is reimburse customers if the exchange rate/block reward causes problems.

Making the business model a function of the market value of BTC is a bad idea. Especially since it's quite volatile.
Pre-orders are a liability. Because you sell a product which doesn't exist yet.

If you really want to open another source of funding we can sell "options" for the produced chips on GLBSE. That is e.g. issue 50000 shares each worth 1 chip. Each share then earns the "right" to buy a unit. But the price still has to be determined...

Then you solve two problems at once:
1) you don't have a liability, because the people are more aware of the risk. You can put a disclaimer.
2) The shares are transferable. If people change their mind they can easily transfer their allocation to other people at market value.

BFL does it completely wrong. What do you think will happen if they find out that the production costs for the chips was 2x as high, or even that their design has a 50% failure rate? They're going to be sued sooner or later.

ADDENDUM:
You can even employ that strategy longterm and solve the allocation dilemma nicely... Because if the chips are out of the factory the question arises who will get them first? Let shares decide..

Very good suggestions.

Jutarul

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Quote from: arklan on August 19, 2012, 02:20:09 PM

i'm agreeign with DeaDterra on this one. the "crash" happenedless then two days ago. things are far from stabilized. we could easily see a drastic change in the coming week, in either direction. i couldn't even begin to reasonably speculate on where the price will be in 7 days, let alone further out. before we go persuing any drastic changes, lets see how the IPO and the BTC price actually shake out the next few days.

exactly. patience my friends. The trust in BTC in not going anywhere. A lot of speculators are going to make a loss within the next few days.

It all depends on the cash-out strategy for the IPO as well. If you can keep some of the funds in BTC you can go long on those which alleviates any under-valuation of BTC at the moment.
@friedcat: When's the money for the foundry due? And have you talked about a payment schedule? E.g. 20% upfront, 50% on delivery and 30% on successful testing?

Jutarul

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Quote from: eb3full on August 19, 2012, 02:05:26 PM

I believe the BTC exchange rate is going to plummet, leaving this IPO untenable without an enormous campaign for new funding. This is a shame, because everything I've seen indicates that the individuals behind this are best located and resourced to make this happen. We need at least $100k for this to work out, and we nearly had this before this crash. If BFL succeeds in flooding the market with new mining rigs at the new rate it may be impossible to bring a new ASIC startup to market for another 6-8 months while Bitcoin rebounds.

Of course, ASICMINER's goal should be to sell hardware, and every day that the rate decreases it seems more of a priority for us. For that reason, I propose a change in the the business model.

We will only sell well-tested hardware. We will not mine anything for the purpose of paying for development.
We will accept preorders for a fixed rate (enough to reach the NRE and then some), but provide rebates to customers when their order is fulfilled which fairly reimburses them for changes in the mining ROI.
We will commit to fulfilling orders of at least 16TH by the end of the year, but hopefully more before then. (This is the most conservative estimate I'm willing to propose, but perhaps friedcat can enlighten us.)

It's sad that we have to resort to preorders for units, but really that's the only way to compete with BFL's slimy practices. To make up for it, the least we could do is reimburse customers if the exchange rate/block reward causes problems.

Making the business model a function of the market value of BTC is a bad idea. Especially since it's quite volatile.
Pre-orders are a liability. Because you sell a product which doesn't exist yet.

If you really want to open another source of funding we can sell "options" for the produced chips on GLBSE. That is e.g. issue 50000 shares each worth 1 chip. Each share then earns the "right" to buy a unit. But the price still has to be determined...

Then you solve two problems at once:
1) you don't have a liability, because the people are more aware of the risk. You can put a disclaimer.
2) The shares are transferable. If people change their mind they can easily transfer their allocation to other people at market value.

BFL does it completely wrong. What do you think will happen if they find out that the production costs for the chips was 2x as high, or even that their design has a 50% failure rate? They're going to be sued sooner or later.

ADDENDUM:
You can even employ that strategy longterm and solve the allocation dilemma nicely... Because if the chips are out of the factory the question arises who will get them first? Let shares decide..

DutchBrat

hero member

Activity: 868

Merit: 1000

Quote from: eb3full on August 19, 2012, 02:05:26 PM

I believe the BTC exchange rate is going to plummet, leaving this IPO untenable without an enormous campaign for new funding. This is a shame, because everything I've seen indicates that the individuals behind this are best located and resourced to make this happen. We need at least $100k for this to work out, and we nearly had this before this crash. If BFL succeeds in flooding the market with new mining rigs at the new rate it may be impossible to bring a new ASIC startup to market for another 6-8 months while Bitcoin rebounds.

Of course, ASICMINER's goal should be to sell hardware, and every day that the rate decreases it seems more of a priority for us. For that reason, I propose a change in the the business model.

I don't understand the need to change the business model.... You say ASICMINER needs at least $100K to work out.... I thought it was $200K

Friedcat posted the other day that 8000 BTC had already been raised with another 7000 BTC waiting to be fulfilled
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.1107204

15.000 BTC * $7 > $100K

So we are still good to go, if it is $100K and the original plan for the IPO was to raise a total of 200.000 shares @ 0.10 = 20.000 BTC

That would mean even at $5 it could still be viable

For me part of the appeal was that ASICMINER itself will be mining, 'guaranteeing' the return of the original investment, whereupon mining and sales would lead to additional revenue and profits.... To be just investing in a hardware producer is something completely different, not to mention taking pre-orders and compensating customers, how laudable that may be....

Let's see what the status of the IPO is August 28th (that was the original deadline if I remember correctly) and then do a go / no go or change the entire business model....

Anyway.... upon re-reading your post it leads me to believe you are not one of the people behind the ASICMINER project, but just concerned about your investment (?) so let's let one of the spokespersons for ASICMINER handle the remainder of the IPO

arklan

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i'm agreeign with DeaDterra on this one. the "crash" happenedless then two days ago. things are far from stabilized. we could easily see a drastic change in the coming week, in either direction. i couldn't even begin to reasonably speculate on where the price will be in 7 days, let alone further out. before we go persuing any drastic changes, lets see how the IPO and the BTC price actually shake out the next few days.

eb3full

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Quote from: DeaDTerra on August 19, 2012, 02:07:21 PM

I think this is a too drastic change and I would suggest waiting a couple of days for the price to stabilize then we can talk about pre-orders and such.
//DeaDTerra

It is a drastic change, and I'm tentative about it. And it requires more thought. And we should wait a couple days (it's not like we can liquidate now anyway). But I think even if we hit BTCUSD of 6 we're screwed without a backup plan, and that's the only plan I could think of.

DeaDTerra

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Quote from: eb3full on August 19, 2012, 02:05:26 PM

I believe the BTC exchange rate is going to plummet, leaving this IPO untenable without an enormous campaign for new funding. This is a shame, because everything I've seen indicates that the individuals behind this are best located and resourced to make this happen. We need at least $100k for this to work out, and we nearly had this before this crash. If BFL succeeds in flooding the market with new mining rigs at the new rate it may be impossible to bring a new ASIC startup to market for another 6-8 months while Bitcoin rebounds.

Of course, ASICMINER's goal should be to sell hardware, and every day that the rate decreases it seems more of a priority for us. For that reason, I propose a change in the the business model.

We will only sell well-tested hardware. We will not mine anything for the purpose of paying for development.
We will accept preorders for a fixed rate (enough to reach the NRE and then some), but provide rebates to customers when their order is fulfilled which fairly reimburses them for changes in the mining ROI.
We will commit to fulfilling orders of at least 16TH by the end of the year, but hopefully more before then. (This is the most conservative estimate I'm willing to propose, but perhaps friedcat can enlighten us.)

It's sad that we have to resort to preorders for units, but really that's the only way to compete with BFL's slimy practices. To make up for it, the least we could do is reimburse customers if the exchange rate/block reward causes problems.

I think this is a too drastic change and I would suggest waiting a couple of days for the price to stabilize then we can talk about pre-orders and such.
//DeaDTerra

eb3full

vip

Activity: 198

Merit: 101

I believe the BTC exchange rate is going to plummet, leaving this IPO untenable without an enormous campaign for new funding. This is a shame, because everything I've seen indicates that the individuals behind this are best located and resourced to make this happen. We need at least $100k for this to work out, and we nearly had this before this crash. If BFL succeeds in flooding the market with new mining rigs at the new rate it may be impossible to bring a new ASIC startup to market for another 6-8 months while Bitcoin rebounds.

Of course, ASICMINER's goal should be to sell hardware, and every day that the rate decreases it seems more of a priority for us. For that reason, I propose a change in the the business model.

We will only sell well-tested hardware. We will not mine anything for the purpose of paying for development.
We will accept preorders for a fixed rate (enough to reach the NRE and then some), but provide rebates to customers when their order is fulfilled which fairly reimburses them for changes in the mining ROI.
We will commit to fulfilling orders of at least 16TH by the end of the year, but hopefully more before then. (This is the most conservative estimate I'm willing to propose, but perhaps friedcat can enlighten us.)

It's sad that we have to resort to preorders for units, but really that's the only way to compete with BFL's slimy practices. To make up for it, the least we could do is reimburse customers if the exchange rate/block reward causes problems.

Lethos

sr. member

Activity: 476

Merit: 250

Keep it Simple. Every Bit Matters.

Quote from: DutchBrat on August 19, 2012, 11:14:18 AM

Quote from: piotr_n on August 19, 2012, 11:12:31 AM

Quote from: friedcat on August 19, 2012, 11:02:26 AM

Quote from: DutchBrat on August 19, 2012, 09:27:40 AM

I'm dying to hear if the conference call has taken place and what the feedback is

It's finished. This time I had some kind of problem with my place so it turned from a video chat to a text-only meeting soon.

Though I can confirm taht we saw his face and heard his voice for some time Tongue

So you have established Friedcat is a human and not a bot.... Well, I guess it is a start Wink

Well the vast majority of the talk happened via skype text messages, so their is a good chat log, if it's okay to post it.

DutchBrat

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Quote from: piotr_n on August 19, 2012, 11:12:31 AM

Quote from: friedcat on August 19, 2012, 11:02:26 AM

Quote from: DutchBrat on August 19, 2012, 09:27:40 AM

I'm dying to hear if the conference call has taken place and what the feedback is

It's finished. This time I had some kind of problem with my place so it turned from a video chat to a text-only meeting soon.

Though I can confirm taht we saw his face and heard his voice for some time Tongue

So you have established Friedcat is a human and not a bot.... Well, I guess it is a start Wink

piotr_n

legendary

Activity: 2053

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aka tonikt

Quote from: friedcat on August 19, 2012, 11:02:26 AM

Quote from: DutchBrat on August 19, 2012, 09:27:40 AM

I'm dying to hear if the conference call has taken place and what the feedback is

It's finished. This time I had some kind of problem with my place so it turned from a video chat to a text-only meeting soon.

Though I can confirm taht we saw his face and heard his voice for some time Tongue

friedcat

donator

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Quote from: DutchBrat on August 19, 2012, 09:27:40 AM

I'm dying to hear if the conference call has taken place and what the feedback is

It's finished. This time I had some kind of problem with my place so it turned from a video chat to a text-only meeting soon.

But expect more of them in the future whenever I'm free to answer questions and make discussions.

Lethos

sr. member

Activity: 476

Merit: 250

Keep it Simple. Every Bit Matters.

Quote from: DutchBrat on August 19, 2012, 09:27:40 AM

I'm dying to hear if the conference call has taken place and what the feedback is

It's going on right now...

DutchBrat

hero member

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I'm dying to hear if the conference call has taken place and what the feedback is

friedcat

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Quote from: ianbakewell on August 17, 2012, 08:50:23 PM

Quote from: friedcat on August 17, 2012, 08:25:08 AM

, are still reserved till the expiration date that each investor has said in the reservation request.

Are you able to tell us when is the last of these due / When do you expect to be holding the funds committed?

The last of these due is within the next week.

friedcat

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Quote from: tucenaber on August 18, 2012, 01:27:48 AM

Quote from: Fan.David on August 17, 2012, 11:14:31 PM

Hello everyone, I'm a partner of Bitfountain. friedcat is on the train to Beijing for some meetings of the project. He can't access the internet now, your message will be replied as soon as he arrives about 8 hours later.

I have a question. When is the video chat going to happen that you have been promising me and other larger investors for days now? Every day I ask and everyday Friedcat says sure we'll do it, but nothing happens. I'm getting tired of this.

He was supposed to send out an email about it. I sure haven't received one and it was supposed to happen tomorrow.

Video, or I'm out.

Sorry for the absence in the day and the delay of response.

The e-mails about the skype video meeting are sent to all to-be board members.

tucenaber

sr. member

Activity: 337

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Quote from: Fan.David on August 17, 2012, 11:14:31 PM

Hello everyone, I'm a partner of Bitfountain. friedcat is on the train to Beijing for some meetings of the project. He can't access the internet now, your message will be replied as soon as he arrives about 8 hours later.

I have a question. When is the video chat going to happen that you have been promising me and other larger investors for days now? Every day I ask and everyday Friedcat says sure we'll do it, but nothing happens. I'm getting tired of this.

He was supposed to send out an email about it. I sure haven't received one and it was supposed to happen tomorrow.

Video, or I'm out.

Jutarul

donator

Activity: 994

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Quote from: Fan.David on August 17, 2012, 11:14:31 PM

Hello everyone, I'm a partner of Bitfountain. friedcat is on the train to Beijing for some meetings of the project. He can't access the internet now, your message will be replied as soon as he arrives about 8 hours later.

Welcome to the forum!

Fan.David

newbie

Activity: 6

Merit: 0

Hello everyone, I'm a partner of Bitfountain. friedcat is on the train to Beijing for some meetings of the project. He can't access the internet now, your message will be replied as soon as he arrives about 8 hours later.

Topic: ASICMINER: Entering the Future of ASIC Mining by Inventing It - page 1341. (Read 3917029 times)