ASICMINER: Entering the Future of ASIC Mining by Inventing It - page 328.

Anotheranonlol

hero member

Activity: 588

Merit: 504

Quote from: jimmothy on June 03, 2014, 05:07:00 PM

Quote

AM cannot compete with Bitfury. their plans is to have better heat efficiency than nearby google DC

What exactly does this mean?

Are you talking about PUE or w/gh?

Also source?

Heat recovery efficiency
BitFury using oil immersion too, and 20MW plant, larger than KNC
when gen3 chips come in AM can have a little trouble on their hands

Quote from: aahzmundus on June 03, 2014, 05:07:21 PM

Does bitfury beat AM's existing farm? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZavKweMrP4 Yes, that is a current AM mining farm...

AM farm certainly look sexy, but it's not fashion contest

here is more like bitfury's DC

spartan82

hero member

Activity: 658

Merit: 500

Quote from: aahzmundus on June 03, 2014, 05:07:21 PM

Quote from: Anotheranonlol on June 03, 2014, 05:03:54 PM

Most of chinese farms have been discussing plant subsidy in mainland then ultimately moving to mongolia. not now but in future
AM cannot compete with Bitfury. their plans is to have better heat efficiency than nearby google DC

Does bitfury beat AM's existing farm? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZavKweMrP4 Yes, that is a current AM mining farm...

What a beautiful sight that is lol I just want one now. Here's hoping AM can get to solo mining with 3PH in time to make a sizable difference

aahzmundus

hero member

Activity: 644

Merit: 500

Invest & Earn: https://cloudthink.io

Quote from: Anotheranonlol on June 03, 2014, 05:03:54 PM

Most of chinese farms have been discussing plant subsidy in mainland then ultimately moving to mongolia. not now but in future
AM cannot compete with Bitfury. their plans is to have better heat efficiency than nearby google DC

Does bitfury beat AM's existing farm? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZavKweMrP4 Yes, that is a current AM mining farm...

jimmothy

hero member

Activity: 770

Merit: 509

Quote

AM cannot compete with Bitfury. their plans is to have better heat efficiency than nearby google DC

What exactly does this mean?

Are you talking about PUE or w/gh?

Also source?

Anotheranonlol

hero member

Activity: 588

Merit: 504

Quote from: jimmothy on June 03, 2014, 04:48:29 PM

Quote

unless he has problems with deploying that much power.

I do believe this is a limiting factor. AM is only working with 1MW and it's not particularly cheap electricity ($0.15/kwh for the immersion DC iirc).

Quote

Personally, I'd like to see more self mining, but if I were FC I'd also be wary of the additional liability of self mining (sourcing power/space thus making the business much less nimble).

I agree. Although I believe FC knows what he is doing and will do whatever is most profitable, I'd still like to see some expansion on the solomining operation.

It would be nice if we could get a ~20Mw DC with cheap electricity (<$0.05/kwh) to rival bitfuries giant farm which will be running soon.

Most of chinese farms have been discussing plant subsidy in mainland then ultimately moving to mongolia. not now but in future
AM cannot compete with Bitfury. their plans is to have better heat efficiency than nearby google DC

jimmothy

hero member

Activity: 770

Merit: 509

Quote

unless he has problems with deploying that much power.

I do believe this is a limiting factor. AM is only working with 1MW and it's not particularly cheap electricity ($0.15/kwh for the immersion DC iirc).

Quote

Personally, I'd like to see more self mining, but if I were FC I'd also be wary of the additional liability of self mining (sourcing power/space thus making the business much less nimble).

I agree. Although I believe FC knows what he is doing and will do whatever is most profitable, I'd still like to see some expansion on the solomining operation.

It would be nice if we could get a ~20Mw DC with cheap electricity (<$0.05/kwh) to rival bitfuries giant farm which will be running soon.

kaerf

hero member

Activity: 631

Merit: 500

Quote from: minerpumpkin on June 03, 2014, 11:04:48 AM

Quote from: hdbuck on June 03, 2014, 11:01:51 AM

Quote from: Bonam on June 03, 2014, 10:36:30 AM

So about 0.01 btc per share is probably about the most total dividend one could possibly expect for now, until gen 4.

you forgot about selfmining and franchisees.

If we assume that selling chips is the most profitable and fast(!) way to go, every KH/s that goes into self-mining and franchising, is a KH/s sold for less. i.e. we'd be off worse.

This all depends on how much and how fast FC can produce self-mining machines.

In my (crazy) estimates, 1GH can still make $1-$2 (accounting for power,fees , and more). If FC can produce machines for less than $0.65/GH ($1 - $0.35), then it's better to self mine....unless he has problems with deploying that much power. Personally, I'd like to see more self mining, but if I were FC I'd also be wary of the additional liability of self mining (sourcing power/space thus making the business much less nimble).

Anotheranonlol

hero member

Activity: 588

Merit: 504

When it comes to the nitty gritty internals of Asicminer we are like Jon Snuh
we know nothing

ujka

hero member

Activity: 630

Merit: 500

Why are you guys so fast in dismising self-mining?
20Ph mentioned as possible with franchising + AM farms, could mine around 90'000 btc before next reward halving:
http://btcinvest.net/en/bitcoin-mining-profit-calculator.php?diff=10455720138&dcosts=0&diff_mincrease=15&blpbtc=25&dhsmhs=20000000000&diff_mincreasedecrease=3&btcusd=623.06&dpowcon=30&btcusd_mincrease=1&pcost=0&calcweeks=60&dleadtime=3&action=calc

vortex1878

hero member

Activity: 491

Merit: 500

Quote from: minerpumpkin on June 03, 2014, 03:24:35 PM

Quote from: hdbuck on June 03, 2014, 03:21:34 PM

Quote from: vortex1878 on June 03, 2014, 03:18:46 PM

And except a lousy initial testing of Gen3 by Rockminer we have not even seen the up-to-date specs of Gen3.1 anywhere.

but why would we? there is just no competitive incentive to release all this data. its not because we know nothing that nothing is happening. At the very best, that would explain such low communication from FC. too busy getting that shit straight. Cheesy

Again, don't overestimate gen 3.1 there is no new chip design (mask set) but rather an increased die size or similar, in order to get rid of the heat better and to stabilise the chip. This shouldn't take any time at all. I also believe that the chips at XBTec are gen 3.1 since they use the new dimensions (8x8mm)

Agreed, this will not take much time but the effect is unknown. Apparently the generation used by XBTec is more efficient. Could be due to 3.1 improvements, PCB improvements or just less loss on the overall device-level due to lower overheads because of more chips per device and less supporting components (I am not an engineer, excuse my wording).

vortex1878

hero member

Activity: 491

Merit: 500

Quote from: hdbuck on June 03, 2014, 03:21:34 PM

Quote from: vortex1878 on June 03, 2014, 03:18:46 PM

And except a lousy initial testing of Gen3 by Rockminer we have not even seen the up-to-date specs of Gen3.1 anywhere.

but why would we? there is just no competitive incentive to release all this data. its not because we know nothing that nothing is happening. At the very best, that would explain such low communication from FC. too busy getting that sh*t straight. Cheesy

True. We know NOTHING actually. So also we do not know if advertising improved specs (equals more info to competitors) would generate more customers or we already do not need more customers as future batches are already in LoI phase or similar.

minerpumpkin

hero member

Activity: 686

Merit: 500

A pumpkin mines 27 hours a night

Quote from: hdbuck on June 03, 2014, 03:21:34 PM

Quote from: vortex1878 on June 03, 2014, 03:18:46 PM

And except a lousy initial testing of Gen3 by Rockminer we have not even seen the up-to-date specs of Gen3.1 anywhere.

but why would we? there is just no competitive incentive to release all this data. its not because we know nothing that nothing is happening. At the very best, that would explain such low communication from FC. too busy getting that shit straight. Cheesy

Again, don't overestimate gen 3.1 there is no new chip design (mask set) but rather an increased die size or similar, in order to get rid of the heat better and to stabilise the chip. This shouldn't take any time at all. I also believe that the chips at XBTec are gen 3.1 since they use the new dimensions (8x8mm)

minerpumpkin

hero member

Activity: 686

Merit: 500

A pumpkin mines 27 hours a night

Quote from: hdbuck on June 03, 2014, 03:10:26 PM

Quote from: minerpumpkin on June 03, 2014, 03:06:26 PM

Quote from: hdbuck on June 03, 2014, 02:57:34 PM

Quote from: minerpumpkin on June 03, 2014, 02:44:17 PM

Like I already said, we're entering a more saturated market now - in comparison to last year. The competition is a lot stronger now and has good chips.

saturated? besides spondoolies that may be doing ok (yet there is no comparison in term of quantity, nor in business model), i dont see a single ASIC manufacturer that offer stable, affordable and instock products. bitmain's S2 are a total disaster, avalon i dont even talk about em, bitfury seems to be on the go now too but nothing really came out anyway etc etc.. for the last year, the ASIC market has been ruined and undermined by scammy commercial practices and chip design amateurism with all of them wanting to produce 28nm chips straight on & at all cost. AM is here to change that.

sure current btc bull market is quite worrying, but FC mentioned OTC channels in HK. plus if bitcoin price rise, chips price to mine them will follow too.

Bitfury just got a massive cash infusion and they're quite talented in doing effective designs in low-nm architectures. I really do think we shouldn't underestimate Spondoolies. They seem to know what they're doing and their next generation could be quite powerful.

OTC channels are a great solution! They won't offer a different price, though. I'm just worried that the price of the chips won't be adjusted as fast as the BTC price, additionally money needs time to trickle in and be converted. A month is an eternity in Bitcoin bull/bubble-world.

sure but bear in mind that not only AM will be stressed by that factor. all ASIC manufacturers will have to deal with it. and so far the only one that is already releasing new working chips is AM. not bitfury, nor spondo's nor no one. they're just not even in mass production phase. AM is.

Yeah but in our case this cuts the dividends. Spondoolies doesn't care since they're effectively operating in FIAT. (On a side-note: AM itself doesn't care either, it makes a lot of sense to conduct the core operation using USD)

hdbuck

legendary

Activity: 1260

Merit: 1002

Quote from: vortex1878 on June 03, 2014, 03:18:46 PM

And except a lousy initial testing of Gen3 by Rockminer we have not even seen the up-to-date specs of Gen3.1 anywhere.

but why would we? there is just no competitive incentive to release all this data. its not because we know nothing that nothing is happening. At the very best, that would explain such low communication from FC. too busy getting that sh*t straight. Cheesy

minerpumpkin

hero member

Activity: 686

Merit: 500

A pumpkin mines 27 hours a night

Quote from: vortex1878 on June 03, 2014, 03:09:59 PM

Now I know it is not my bad English. ^^

I'll give it a last try with a bold example:
Somebody is offering you chips for 1$/G. He says each chip performs 1Gh/s (although the official rating is different).
At 1 Gh/s the chip consumes 10 Watts. But the most efficient (and rated) rate for the chip is 0.5Gh/s as it is only consuming 2 Watts then. So you might want to run the chips at the rated 0.5Gh/s only. Hence, you actually pay 2$/G.

Ah okay, so you're interested in the currently advertised rated performance of the chips? Yes, that isn't entirely clear. But even in April FC already stated "assuming each chip has 10GH/s", like you already mentioned. They could indeed have a minor influence. Effectively an example why the January plans seem outdated.

vortex1878

hero member

Activity: 491

Merit: 500

And except a lousy initial testing of Gen3 by Rockminer we have not even seen the up-to-date specs of Gen3.1 anywhere.

hdbuck

legendary

Activity: 1260

Merit: 1002

Quote from: minerpumpkin on June 03, 2014, 03:06:26 PM

Quote from: hdbuck on June 03, 2014, 02:57:34 PM

Quote from: minerpumpkin on June 03, 2014, 02:44:17 PM

Like I already said, we're entering a more saturated market now - in comparison to last year. The competition is a lot stronger now and has good chips.

saturated? besides spondoolies that may be doing ok (yet there is no comparison in term of quantity, nor in business model), i dont see a single ASIC manufacturer that offer stable, affordable and instock products. bitmain's S2 are a total disaster, avalon i dont even talk about em, bitfury seems to be on the go now too but nothing really came out anyway etc etc.. for the last year, the ASIC market has been ruined and undermined by scammy commercial practices and chip design amateurism with all of them wanting to produce 28nm chips straight on & at all cost. AM is here to change that.

sure current btc bull market is quite worrying, but FC mentioned OTC channels in HK. plus if bitcoin price rise, chips price to mine them will follow too.

Bitfury just got a massive cash infusion and they're quite talented in doing effective designs in low-nm architectures. I really do think we shouldn't underestimate Spondoolies. They seem to know what they're doing and their next generation could be quite powerful.

OTC channels are a great solution! They won't offer a different price, though. I'm just worried that the price of the chips won't be adjusted as fast as the BTC price, additionally money needs time to trickle in and be converted. A month is an eternity in Bitcoin bull/bubble-world.

sure but bear in mind that not only AM will be stressed by that factor. all ASIC manufacturers will have to deal with it. and so far the only one that is already releasing new working chips is AM. not bitfury, nor spondo's nor no one. they're just not even in mass production phase. AM is.

vortex1878

hero member

Activity: 491

Merit: 500

Quote from: minerpumpkin on June 03, 2014, 03:00:31 PM

Quote from: vortex1878 on June 03, 2014, 02:50:40 PM

Quote from: minerpumpkin on June 03, 2014, 02:49:19 PM

Quote from: vortex1878 on June 03, 2014, 02:35:04 PM

Of course the sales price can always be adjusted for future sales.

Regarding that rumoured near-future 0.35$/G:

Anybody knows at what G-rate of the chip that price might be based on?

If it is the initial 12.8G/chip (and as now everybody incl. fc is talking about 10G/chip), the actual price would be 0.448$/G (0.35$ for actual 0.78G at 10G/chip).

Just a thought...

I'm not following... We're talking about $0.35 per GH/s, that is per GH/s. That Chinese offer seems to be our very own gen 3 chips, since it says "grilled cat 3 generations chips". Delivery seems to be June 10-20.

Please think again. Or is my English really that bad? Tongue

I thought you weren't sure which chips were being sold here: http://www.cybtc.com/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=7951&highlight=%E7%83%A4%E7%8C%AB.
Still not following. We're pricing the chips per GH/s. If 1 GH/s costs $0.35, a 10 GH/s chip costs $3.5 and the initial 12.8GH/s chip would be $4.48. But not $0.448/GH/s!?
The chips could do 50GH/s, they'd still be $0.35/GH/s.

10 GH/s may be due to the increase in consumption or heat they encountered, so the recommended speed has been cut to about 10 GH/s. The only thing that does happen is that the production price would increase by the factor 1.28x per GH/s, since one chip yields less GH/s.

Now I know it is not my bad English. ^^

I'll give it a last try with a bold example:
Somebody is offering you chips for 1$/G. He says each chip performs 1Gh/s (although the official rating is different).
At 1 Gh/s the chip consumes 10 Watts. But the most efficient (and rated) rate for the chip is 0.5Gh/s as it is only consuming 2 Watts then. So you might want to run the chips at the rated 0.5Gh/s only. Hence, you actually pay 2$/G.

minerpumpkin

hero member

Activity: 686

Merit: 500

A pumpkin mines 27 hours a night

Quote from: hdbuck on June 03, 2014, 02:57:34 PM

Quote from: minerpumpkin on June 03, 2014, 02:44:17 PM

Like I already said, we're entering a more saturated market now - in comparison to last year. The competition is a lot stronger now and has good chips.

saturated? besides spondoolies that may be doing ok (yet there is no comparison in term of quantity, nor in business model), i dont see a single ASIC manufacturer that offer stable, affordable and instock products. bitmain's S2 are a total disaster, avalon i dont even talk about em, bitfury seems to be on the go now too but nothing really came out anyway etc etc.. for the last year, the ASIC market has been ruined and undermined by scammy commercial practices and chip design amateurism with all of them wanting to produce 28nm chips straight on & at all cost. AM is here to change that.

sure current btc bull market is quite worrying, but FC mentioned OTC channels in HK. plus if bitcoin price rise, chips price to mine them will follow too.

Bitfury just got a massive cash infusion and they're quite talented in doing effective designs in low-nm architectures. I really do think we shouldn't underestimate Spondoolies. They seem to know what they're doing and their next generation could be quite powerful.

OTC channels are a great solution! They won't offer a different price, though. I'm just worried that the price of the chips won't be adjusted as fast as the BTC price, additionally money needs time to trickle in and be converted. A month is an eternity in Bitcoin bull/bubble-world.

minerpumpkin

hero member

Activity: 686

Merit: 500

A pumpkin mines 27 hours a night

Quote from: vortex1878 on June 03, 2014, 02:50:40 PM

Quote from: minerpumpkin on June 03, 2014, 02:49:19 PM

Quote from: vortex1878 on June 03, 2014, 02:35:04 PM

Of course the sales price can always be adjusted for future sales.

Regarding that rumoured near-future 0.35$/G:

Anybody knows at what G-rate of the chip that price might be based on?

If it is the initial 12.8G/chip (and as now everybody incl. fc is talking about 10G/chip), the actual price would be 0.448$/G (0.35$ for actual 0.78G at 10G/chip).

Just a thought...

I'm not following... We're talking about $0.35 per GH/s, that is per GH/s. That Chinese offer seems to be our very own gen 3 chips, since it says "grilled cat 3 generations chips". Delivery seems to be June 10-20.

Please think again. Or is my English really that bad? Tongue

I thought you weren't sure which chips were being sold here: http://www.cybtc.com/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=7951&highlight=%E7%83%A4%E7%8C%AB.
Still not following. We're pricing the chips per GH/s. If 1 GH/s costs $0.35, a 10 GH/s chip costs $3.5 and the initial 12.8GH/s chip would be $4.48. But not $0.448/GH/s!?
The chips could do 50GH/s, they'd still be $0.35/GH/s.

10 GH/s may be due to the increase in consumption or heat they encountered, so the recommended speed has been cut to about 10 GH/s. The only thing that does happen is that the production price would increase by the factor 1.28x per GH/s, since one chip yields less GH/s.

Topic: ASICMINER: Entering the Future of ASIC Mining by Inventing It - page 328. (Read 3917468 times)