ASICMINER: Entering the Future of ASIC Mining by Inventing It - page 34.

Window2Wall

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Quote from: Puppet on March 21, 2015, 04:52:51 PM

Quote from: primeminer on March 21, 2015, 02:50:59 PM

Quote from: jimmothy on March 21, 2015, 01:55:17 PM

In no case do I think the scam was premeditated or that anyone other than FC was involved.

I know there can not be any proof for this claim, but would you disclose any logic behind this? What makes you so confident to state above?

I dont often agree with jimmothy, but I do here. Its a weird kind of scammer that first returns 6x more to its investors than it ever collected in its IPO. if it was premeditated, it certainly wasnt a few years ago. And its an unbelievably incompetent scam when you pull the plug right at the moment where everyone is holding their wallets expecting the launch of a new product, that could greatly increase his loot, just by selling (fake) BE300 bulk preorders or hashrate based on it.

Everything points to there being more to this story than FC pulling off a very weird and/or very incompetent scam. I still think its far more likely the discovery by authorities of 'theft' / misappropriated electricity of their mine is what triggered this collapse. Conjuncture, for sure, but more plausible than the incompetent scam theory.

They were able to return additional funds to investors because they were not a ponzi in a sense that there was no real hardware actually mining. The fact that they actually had hardware mining meant that they were able to payout whatever it earned (minus their fees) to shareholders/investors).

There were posts that had mentioned that either ASICMINER or AMHASH was having difficulty selling all of their mining power that AMHASH1 was supposed to be backed by. So it is possible that he decided that it would not be financially viable to continue running his company so he just stole everything that he could from his customers.

This goes to show why it is not good to ever own miners that you do not physically control as it will always be trivial for whoever physically controls your miners to steal them and to steal whatever mining revenue that your miners should generate

Tigggger

legendary

Activity: 1098

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Speaking of shares, has anyone looked into the trading history.

Announcing a succesfull chip (BE300) and making everyone think that everything was proceeding to production, on top of the failure to mention anything about the mining farm going *cough* missing are both things that would keep the share price higher than it should have been.

RoadStress

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Quote from: iCEBREAKER on March 21, 2015, 05:22:34 PM

Ponzi schemes work precisely because of the high returns provided to early investors:

You must be an ultra retard to think that AM was a ponzi scheme. AM only took money from shareholders on IPO while maintaining a higher percentage of shares for themselves. Afterwards AM didn't need any outside money and they were able to operate independently of the share price. How can it be a ponzi if it's not needing new people to pour money into the company?

Can you be more retard than this?

Blazed

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Quote from: Puppet on March 21, 2015, 05:55:08 PM

BTW, afaik, all AM hardware customers (so excluding AMhash) also got what they paid for. Which again is more than one can say of HF or any other scam I can think off.

True they even refunded those garbage Prisma miners. The only Ponzi was AMHash after the gear went MIA. It is funny comparing FailFast to them...FailFast couldn't even ship gen 1 after massive pre orders.

RoadStress

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Quote from: iCEBREAKER on March 20, 2015, 11:37:58 PM

Good question. Here are some differences between the HashFast the unsuccessful business, and AM the scam:

1) HF operated in a transparent manner. We knew the investors' and executives' identities and backgrounds since the beginning. AM guys hid behind silly fake names like 'FriedCat' and 'BitFountain.'

Hello scammer! This is my reply to another post where you post tons of LIES.

Transparent manner? According to http://hashfast.org/Main_Page#Batch_1_Preorders there was nothing transparent from HashFail. According to this well documented website " Amy Woodward announced a delay of a critical component 3 days before the promised shipping date".

This is what "transparent" means for retard Icebreaker! You can't find out only with 3 days before the shipping date that you are not able to deliver anything. This is an outrageous LIE!

Quote from: iCEBREAKER on March 20, 2015, 11:40:07 PM

Funny how you insisted HF was a scam despite having no proof, but make excuses for AM despite overwhelming evidence.

You are a retard! HF WAS A SCAM from day 1 while AM made over 6 time profit for IPO. HF was only able to deliver ONE batch of miners, while AM successfully operated for a couple of years and many investors saw a nice profit from AM shares.

Puppet

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BTW, afaik, all AM hardware customers (so excluding AMhash) also got what they paid for. Which again is more than one can say of HF or any other scam I can think off.

Puppet

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Quote from: iCEBREAKER on March 21, 2015, 05:22:34 PM

Ponzi schemes work precisely because of the high returns provided to early investors:

Ponzi's can not, by definition, return more to investors collectively than what the ponzi got from them in the first place. Madoff didnt, no ponzi ever did. Oh, and I assume HF didnt either, sucks to be you. AM did, many times over. You would call Dell a ponzi just because you bought them too high.

iCEBREAKER

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Crypto is the separation of Power and State.

Quote from: Puppet on March 21, 2015, 04:52:51 PM

weird kind of scammer that first returns 6x more to its investors than it ever collected in its IPO. if it was premeditated, it certainly wasnt a few years ago.

Ponzi schemes work precisely because of the high returns provided to early investors:

Madoff made his early investors feel like they were getting rich, in order to attrach 2rd and 3rd waves of investors.

Madoff's scam was premeditated years in advance. It's called a long con, and they are more profitable than quick ones.

Too bad old Bernie isn't around to get involved with cloud mining and DashCoinDark. Tongue

Puppet

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Quote from: primeminer on March 21, 2015, 02:50:59 PM

Quote from: jimmothy on March 21, 2015, 01:55:17 PM

In no case do I think the scam was premeditated or that anyone other than FC was involved.

I know there can not be any proof for this claim, but would you disclose any logic behind this? What makes you so confident to state above?

I dont often agree with jimmothy, but I do here. Its a weird kind of scammer that first returns 6x more to its investors than it ever collected in its IPO. if it was premeditated, it certainly wasnt a few years ago. And its an unbelievably incompetent scam when you pull the plug right at the moment where everyone is holding their wallets expecting the launch of a new product, that could greatly increase his loot, just by selling (fake) BE300 bulk preorders or hashrate based on it.

Everything points to there being more to this story than FC pulling off a very weird and/or very incompetent scam. I still think its far more likely the discovery by authorities of 'theft' / misappropriated electricity of their mine is what triggered this collapse. Conjuncture, for sure, but more plausible than the incompetent scam theory.

iCEBREAKER

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Crypto is the separation of Power and State.

Quote from: Window2Wall on March 21, 2015, 04:42:30 PM

Quote from: jimmothy on March 20, 2015, 11:18:26 PM

Quote from: Window2Wall on March 20, 2015, 11:13:20 PM

FC has been offline for almost two months now. When someone scams, they almost always will never allow you to hear from them again.

Instead of giving himself a raise prior to the company failing, he simply stole the mining equipment and mining revenue of AMHASH. It is as simple as that

Do you have any proof he stole the hardware and mining revenue?

You are kidding right? Investors have not been paid in close to two months, and the people behind AMHASH have not received any mining revenue for close to another month before that. This is despite the fact that investors should have been receiving mining revenue for that entire time.

I am really not sure how else you could see that FC is a thief and a scammer

There is no logic behind jimmothy's skepticism and refusal to see the obvious. Only confirmation bias amplified by pride and the fear of having to admit being in the denial stage far longer than was reasonable.

Window2Wall

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Quote from: jimmothy on March 20, 2015, 11:18:26 PM

Quote from: Window2Wall on March 20, 2015, 11:13:20 PM

FC has been offline for almost two months now. When someone scams, they almost always will never allow you to hear from them again.

Instead of giving himself a raise prior to the company failing, he simply stole the mining equipment and mining revenue of AMHASH. It is as simple as that

Do you have any proof he stole the hardware and mining revenue?

You are kidding right? Investors have not been paid in close to two months, and the people behind AMHASH have not received any mining revenue for close to another month before that. This is despite the fact that investors should have been receiving mining revenue for that entire time.

I am really not sure how else you could see that FC is a thief and a scammer

iCEBREAKER

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Crypto is the separation of Power and State.

Quote from: jimmothy on March 21, 2015, 03:52:39 PM

Quote from: Blazed on March 21, 2015, 03:14:41 PM

FailFast tried and was not a scam just incompetent.

Is it really possible to be so incompetent/negligent that they went bankrupt before delivering a majority of their preorders which they charged $15/gh while production costs were ~$0.3/gh?

IMO they got fed up with the community backlash after Icebreaker managed to turn EVERYONE against HF so they orchestrated their exit scam. (funneling the money out of the company then declaring bankruptcy)

But then again the all-knowing Icebreaker has informed us all several times that bankruptcy fraud never happens so this can't be the case.

It's more than possible, it actually happened. Over a dozen professional lawyers (of whom several from major firms charge $500/hr) found zero evidence of incompetence or negligence.

Nobody cares about your ignorant personal opinion, fact-free interpretation, or quest for revenge.

There was no 'exit scam.' You were warned getting lawyers involved would not benefit anyone but those lawyers. You should have already known that bit of common sense from watching TV.

No money was "funneled out" of the company. That would be illegal and have precluded Chapter 11 status with retained management.

I never said "bankruptcy fraud never happens." It just so happens that in this case 12+ bankruptcy specialists failed to find so much as a hint of a whiff of fraud.

You are just making stuff up and putting words in my mouth because you are so upset about being wrong, while I was proven correct on every point in dispute.

I ripped your face off and shat on your bruised ego. Sorry, but that's the way it goes when you engage me impolitely in debate on topics of which I am the master.

You were wrong about the facts in both the HF and AM fiascos. The longer you wallow in denial, the worse you look and the less healthy it is for you psychologically.

iCEBREAKER

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Activity: 2156

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Crypto is the separation of Power and State.

Quote from: Blazed on March 21, 2015, 03:47:40 PM

I think both companies sucked Wink

But you only described HF as incompetent, which is odd given both made a single good chip but only AM made two miserable failures.

I guess you didn't listen to the court hearing where the judge specifically asked the US Atty for evidence of HF incompetence, and received no satisfactory response.

It's really not fair to expect superhuman competence, sufficient to overcome truly adverse business conditions, when HF had no way to predict nor control the price of BTC and difficulty. Sometimes, and most often in risky high-tech start-ups, the execs best isn't good enough.

That's just economics, not incompetence. Confusing the two is a tautological amateur mistake, as the judge explained to the humiliated and flustered US Atty when she tried to say failure necessarily indicates incompetence.

Sorry to pick on you, but I'm tired of HF being expected to prove their innocence while AM is given far more than reasonable benefit of the doubt.

flyingplows

sr. member

Activity: 518

Merit: 250

How can a single individual be responsible if we gave our investments to AM, not to FC. I would not give a satoshi to any cat or dog. We gave our money to a company and the company has to be responsible, there i no other way. I understand that this company is done after this (well to be true it was done long ago, but...), but the management have to be responsible and have to go to jail and be confiscated the money they stole. Its their fault that their ''business'' was organized it such perverted way that one person was in control of everything and that it was possible to steal anything. Not that I would believe any word of that stupid fairy tale but what I mean to say is that EVEN is their story would be true - still not FC is responsible, I don't know and don't care about no baked cat or roasted cat or dog, AM owes me money, not some personal thief.

jimmothy

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Quote from: Blazed on March 21, 2015, 03:14:41 PM

FailFast tried and was not a scam just incompetent.

Is it really possible to be so incompetent/negligent that they went bankrupt before delivering a majority of their preorders which they charged $15/gh while production costs were ~$0.3/gh?

IMO they got fed up with the community backlash after Icebreaker managed to turn EVERYONE against HF so they orchestrated their exit scam. (funneling the money out of the company then declaring bankruptcy)

But then again the all-knowing Icebreaker has informed us all several times that bankruptcy fraud never happens so this can't be the case.

Blazed

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Quote from: iCEBREAKER on March 21, 2015, 03:37:32 PM

Quote from: Blazed on March 21, 2015, 03:14:41 PM

AM was an exit scam in my opinion..BE300 were junk so he bailed.

The junk BE300 and previous junk BE200 would indicate AM/FC were tremendously incompetent as well as a scam.

Funny how you paint HF as incompetent (even though the bankruptcy court found zero evidence for that assertion), while you accidentally forgot to note 2 ASICs worth of demonstrated AM/FC incompetence. Oops, I guess fairness just slipped your mind because you were so busy applying a biased double standard. Wink

I think both companies sucked Wink

AM at least did not fail on their gen 1 though...HF sucked worse.

iCEBREAKER

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Crypto is the separation of Power and State.

Quote from: Blazed on March 21, 2015, 03:14:41 PM

AM was an exit scam in my opinion..BE300 were junk so he bailed.

The junk BE300 and previous junk BE200 would indicate AM/FC were tremendously incompetent as well as a scam.

Funny how you paint HF as incompetent (even though the bankruptcy court found zero evidence for that assertion), while you accidentally forgot to note 2 ASICs worth of demonstrated AM/FC incompetence. Oops, I guess fairness just slipped your mind because you were so busy applying a biased double standard. Wink

jimmothy

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Quote from: primeminer on March 21, 2015, 02:50:59 PM

Quote from: jimmothy on March 21, 2015, 01:55:17 PM

In no case do I think the scam was premeditated or that anyone other than FC was involved.

I know there can not be any proof for this claim, but would you disclose any logic behind this? What makes you so confident to state above?

It just doesn't add up. Why do you think they stopped new amhash sales around the time the hardware was supposedly stolen? Why did AM offer full refunds/replacements to those with defective prismas? Why did they even bother to set up a datacenter and back all shares with real hashrate?

You could argue that this was all done to paint the illusion that it wasn't a scam, but I just don't see why the guy who earned 10's of thousands of btc legitimately would scam the community for another ~1.5k btc. (though I admit it is definitely possible)

As for FC being solely responsible, is there any evidence to suggest otherwise? So far we've seen several insiders share their point of view about this debacle and they all point to FC (and his disappearance) being responsible.

flyingplows

sr. member

Activity: 518

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Guys - back to reality. Anyone who really believes it is possible to steal electricity for a mining farm please seek medical help immediately. Ok, someone might say that he is so lucky that he steals electricity for his antminer at work and gets away with it for a few months, that's believable. If he tells he steals for 10 - he is probably lying or lives in some third world country at war where nobody cares about anything or he is just brave to think he will not go to jail and exploits his control of a building/situation etc. If he claims to steal for 50 - he is probably insane as this cannot happen in general. But to steal for a mining farm Shocked

- i mean, come on, there are no words for this mental condition - the only explanation is that this story is ment for noobs who have no idea about mining hardware and even what is electricity at all and its cost and all the stuff involved

You please think of an analogy - somebody tries to sell you a story that.. lets say.. a car factory steals electricity to produce cars would you believe this also... god.. how they came to even consider to spread such absurd nonsense.. unbelievable... Sad

Blazed

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Quote from: iCEBREAKER on March 21, 2015, 02:59:09 PM

Quote from: primeminer on March 21, 2015, 02:50:59 PM

Quote from: jimmothy on March 21, 2015, 01:55:17 PM

In no case do I think the scam was premeditated or that anyone other than FC was involved.

I know there can not be any proof for this claim, but would you disclose any logic behind this? What makes you so confident to state above?

See what I mean? Even if FC admitted the scam was premeditated, jimmothy wouldn't believe him.

There is no logic behind jimmothy's assertion. Only confirmation bias amplified by pride and the fear of having to admit being in the denial stage far longer than was reasonable.

FailFast tried and was not a scam just incompetent. AM was an exit scam in my opinion..BE300 were junk so he bailed.

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