'Attack on Bitcoin’ Claims Circulate as Transaction Fees Climb Higher - page 3.

TrustedBitcoiner

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Quote from: bbc.reporter on December 21, 2023, 11:25:49 PM

It appears the writer of this news article does not read between the lines hehehee. Luke Dashjr did not capitulate on his criticism on Ordinals. What Ocean Mining is only doing is it will recommend 3 block templates for their miners and let them decide what they want to use. I speculate that this is only the beginning. Luke Dashjr might have a roadmap already created to minimize Ordinals' effect on fees.

Sarcastic Luke

Bitcoin developer Luke Dashjr fought the rise of Ordinals, which he called "spam," but now his mining pool is allowing them.

A prominent Bitcoin Core developer and Ordinals critic, Luke Dashjr, may have had a change of heart about the NFT-like assets. Or at the very least, his company is moving beyond his own hardline stance around Ordinals.

With the update, Ocean says, miners can choose from three block template policy options: Ocean Recommended, focusing on what the company calls “real” financial transactions with minimal spam; Bitcoin Core with the “Ordisrespector” spam filter; and the unmodified Bitcoin Core, mirroring other pools with fewer financial transactions but more “spam”—meaning Ordinals and BRC-20 token transactions.

Source https://decrypt.co/210662/bitcoin-ordinals-critic-caves-jack-dorsey-backed-ocean-mining-pool-flips-inscriptions

Quote

Bitcoin mining company Ocean has announced a change in its stance on Ordinals inscriptions, allowing miners to decide whether to process Bitcoin blocks containing non-financial transactions. Previously, the company prohibited such actions. This move comes as a surprise to many, given the company’s and Luke Dashjr’s hardline stance against Ordinals in the past.

dude he caved! now even lass hashing power is filtering Ordinals...

there will be Ordinals in every block forever Shocked

TrustedBitcoiner

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Quote from: takuma sato on December 21, 2023, 11:36:34 PM

Quote from: NotATether on December 20, 2023, 12:43:12 PM

Quote from: dansus021 on December 19, 2023, 10:46:03 PM

I don't know but the Bitcoin developer or the ordinal developer should figure this out or the fee will be this high for a long time.

There is no "Ordinals developer". There's only a bunch of people throwing programming shit at the wall to see what sticks.

As for bitcoin developers, well the default tendency is to do nothing, except for a small minority of them.

There's no easy way to undo ordinals at this point. You are going to need to gather enough capital and mining power involved to basically push for what would be a BTC hardfork without ordinals, and this would need to be done in a way that guarantees no future ordinals are possible, but then again, how do you this without causing another hardfork civil war, and how do you do it without getting rid of taproot? because if taproot is possible, I believe there could be ways around any restrictions put into ordinals to come up with alternatives.

theres no need for a hardfork, miners could mine empty blocks if they so choose, simply allowing minners to choose to filter out the ordinal spam would be a softfork.

and indeed this it seems to be happening.

Quote from: bbc.reporter on December 21, 2023, 11:25:49 PM

It appears the writer of this news article does not read between the lines hehehee. Luke Dashjr did not capitulate on his criticism on Ordinals. What Ocean Mining is only doing is it will recommend 3 block templates for their miners and let them decide what they want to use. I speculate that this is only the beginning. Luke Dashjr might have a roadmap already created to minimize Ordinals' effect on fees.

Sarcastic Luke

Bitcoin developer Luke Dashjr fought the rise of Ordinals, which he called "spam," but now his mining pool is allowing them.

A prominent Bitcoin Core developer and Ordinals critic, Luke Dashjr, may have had a change of heart about the NFT-like assets. Or at the very least, his company is moving beyond his own hardline stance around Ordinals.

With the update, Ocean says, miners can choose from three block template policy options: Ocean Recommended, focusing on what the company calls “real” financial transactions with minimal spam; Bitcoin Core with the “Ordisrespector” spam filter; and the unmodified Bitcoin Core, mirroring other pools with fewer financial transactions but more “spam”—meaning Ordinals and BRC-20 token transactions.

Source https://decrypt.co/210662/bitcoin-ordinals-critic-caves-jack-dorsey-backed-ocean-mining-pool-flips-inscriptions

Good!

but now how much % of he hashrate will filter out ordinal? are minners really going to turn down short term profits for the good fo the network?

benalexis12

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Quote from: Kakmakr on December 20, 2023, 01:27:30 PM

Well, I say... let them burn their money, if they are doing this to sabotage Bitcoin. Let the miners do their thing and let the developers analyze this threat and implement their counter measures.

We should never forget that Bitcoin is still experimental ... we still need to figure out if the tx fees will be enough to reward the miners.. once the Block reward falls away.

It is just part of the evolution of this technology and ALL other tokens would have collapsed under an attack like this.... Bitcoin is still standing. Wink

Is Bitcoin still experimental after 13 years of existence in this field of business? What do you mean by this? A lot of money has been made here, and a lot of big companies have also invested, but I still can't see that it is still in the experiment with the value it has now.

It's just that the only thing that's not really okay is that the requested fee is inhumane and a lot of pain in the pocket to actually conduct a transaction here. If the developers would just fix this thing in the ordinals, there wouldn't be such a problem.

retreat

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Quote from: Darker45 on May 09, 2023, 10:07:09 PM

I remember there were a number of Bitcoin supporters, even developers if I'm not mistaken, who brushed this Ordinals issue off when it was launched months ago saying it's not a big deal, that it will just die sooner rather than later, that they be allowed since they're paying fees for their transactions anyway, and so forth. Now, this issue has already escalated a lot and we seem to be taken back to step 1. Whether this now is a deliberate attack or not, bold steps should be taken. After all, it has already shaken the very core of Bitcoin. And I guess this transaction fee problem has not yet even reached its climax.

People who supported Ordinal at the beginning did not see that the emergence of this shitcoin could have a bad impact on the network. It's true that they pay fees for the transactions they make and the Bitcoin network is decentralized and can be used by everyone, but when one community annoys many people on the network with their shitcoins and empty dreams, shouldn't bitcoin devs take action against it? but as far as I can see no concrete steps have been taken, only empty talk to tell members to wait patiently for the network to return to normal.

takuma sato

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Quote from: NotATether on December 20, 2023, 12:43:12 PM

Quote from: dansus021 on December 19, 2023, 10:46:03 PM

I don't know but the Bitcoin developer or the ordinal developer should figure this out or the fee will be this high for a long time.

There is no "Ordinals developer". There's only a bunch of people throwing programming shit at the wall to see what sticks.

As for bitcoin developers, well the default tendency is to do nothing, except for a small minority of them.

There's no easy way to undo ordinals at this point. You are going to need to gather enough capital and mining power involved to basically push for what would be a BTC hardfork without ordinals, and this would need to be done in a way that guarantees no future ordinals are possible, but then again, how do you this without causing another hardfork civil war, and how do you do it without getting rid of taproot? because if taproot is possible, I believe there could be ways around any restrictions put into ordinals to come up with alternatives.

bbc.reporter

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It appears the writer of this news article does not read between the lines hehehee. Luke Dashjr did not capitulate on his criticism on Ordinals. What Ocean Mining is only doing is it will recommend 3 block templates for their miners and let them decide what they want to use. I speculate that this is only the beginning. Luke Dashjr might have a roadmap already created to minimize Ordinals' effect on fees.

Sarcastic Luke

Bitcoin developer Luke Dashjr fought the rise of Ordinals, which he called "spam," but now his mining pool is allowing them.

A prominent Bitcoin Core developer and Ordinals critic, Luke Dashjr, may have had a change of heart about the NFT-like assets. Or at the very least, his company is moving beyond his own hardline stance around Ordinals.

With the update, Ocean says, miners can choose from three block template policy options: Ocean Recommended, focusing on what the company calls “real” financial transactions with minimal spam; Bitcoin Core with the “Ordisrespector” spam filter; and the unmodified Bitcoin Core, mirroring other pools with fewer financial transactions but more “spam”—meaning Ordinals and BRC-20 token transactions.

Source https://decrypt.co/210662/bitcoin-ordinals-critic-caves-jack-dorsey-backed-ocean-mining-pool-flips-inscriptions

Abiky

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Quote from: Kakmakr on December 20, 2023, 01:27:30 PM

Well, I say... let them burn their money, if they are doing this to sabotage Bitcoin. Let the miners do their thing and let the developers analyze this threat and implement their counter measures.

We should never forget that Bitcoin is still experimental ... we still need to figure out if the tx fees will be enough to reward the miners.. once the Block reward falls away.

It is just part of the evolution of this technology and ALL other tokens would have collapsed under an attack like this.... Bitcoin is still standing. Wink

Are you suggesting a hard fork? I'm pretty sure that's going to happen if developers decide to block Ordinals from the Blockchain. Miners will be running the original chain (with Ordinals), while the rest will be running the "filtered" chain. With fees increasing each day, it should only be a matter of time before this happens. Remember that users (businesses, individuals, etc) are the ones who make Bitcoin what it is right now. Not the miners. They only validate transactions but don't have full control over the network consensus.

We'd have to decide whenever we want fees to keep rising or all the other way around. Off-chain scaling methods (eg: Lightning Network) are experimental and not a long-term solution for the "scalability problem". Hopefully, everything will be back to normal soon. Maybe high fees will become a thing of the past? Grin

yazher

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Quote from: Kakmakr on December 20, 2023, 01:27:30 PM

Well, I say... let them burn their money, if they are doing this to sabotage Bitcoin. Let the miners do their thing and let the developers analyze this threat and implement their counter measures.
We should never forget that Bitcoin is still experimental ... we still need to figure out if the tx fees will be enough to reward the miners.. once the Block reward falls away.
It is just part of the evolution of this technology and ALL other tokens would have collapsed under an attack like this.... Bitcoin is still standing. Wink

No matter what they have done in the past, it's still futile and nothing they do to stop bitcoins from spreading has been fruitful to them, it only ended up in regret because instead of putting bitcoins in the people's blocklists, they became curious about it and ended up becoming investors like just like one of us. Let's just say, that whatever they think does not really define what the reality is, instead, they are just using every opportunity to confuse people and not all of them are fools because whenever they throw these kinds of FUDS people often look for real answers and end up here in this community getting enough answer they really wanted. We have improved a lot in the last 10 years and there will be many more improvements in the future, this is how should one of us think because we are one when it comes to this innovative financial revolution.

BenCodie

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Quote from: Kakmakr on December 20, 2023, 01:27:30 PM

Well, I say... let them burn their money, if they are doing this to sabotage Bitcoin. Let the miners do their thing and let the developers analyze this threat and implement their counter measures.

We should never forget that Bitcoin is still experimental ... we still need to figure out if the tx fees will be enough to reward the miners.. once the Block reward falls away.

It is just part of the evolution of this technology and ALL other tokens would have collapsed under an attack like this.... Bitcoin is still standing. Wink

Bitcoins are not burned after fees are paid. The fees go to miners.

That's where I ask you - what entities do you think are driving this activity on Ordinals. Do you think it's just crazy people? Or do you think they are interests who are in some way affiliated with miners?

I could not possibly believe for a second that all of this Bitcoin are being wasted on ordinals. I can only believe that the fees are in some way going back to those who are causing the issue. This is all that makes sense to me.

Quote from: pooya87 on December 21, 2023, 01:24:58 AM

Many Bitcoiners including me have been calling Ordinals an attack for nearly a year now and I have to say the fact that part of the Bitcoin community needed the fees to go up first before they could see Ordinals as it really is shows the community has still not reached complete maturity and I dare say some of them have not yet understood what bitcoin is.

A mature community would have been this concerned a year ago when the attack began by exploiting the protocol and when the attackers abused bitcoin blockchain by turning it into a cloud storage; not when fees went up and it started affecting them individually.

That is right. Unfortunately though, that is human nature. People do not show any concern or care unless it is something that directly effects them. Sure, some people would have thrown a merit or raised a voice ot support the concerns of intelligent members like yourself who have foresight, however the rest of the forum may have just read and moved on...not paying attention that as a community and with consensus, these problems can be prevented.

It's a shame where we are now however now we have to find the solution.

tbct_mt2

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Quote from: pooya87 on December 21, 2023, 01:24:58 AM

Many Bitcoiners including me have been calling Ordinals an attack for nearly a year now and I have to say the fact that part of the Bitcoin community needed the fees to go up first before they could see Ordinals as it really is shows the community has still not reached complete maturity and I dare say some of them have not yet understood what bitcoin is.

Your concern is valid and very insightful and Bitcoin community need more insightful people like you.

Things started four years ago with Taproot upgrade. I used to believe Taproot is something cool and helpful for Bitcoin users but the fact is opposite and it has been shown clearly in 2023.

Taproot is coming: What is it and how it will benefit Bitcoin?

I did not realize sooner that deploying smart contracts on Bitcoin blockchain will bring more issues for Bitcoin mempools and will seriously affect Bitcoin users.

Quote

A mature community would have been this concerned a year ago when the attack began by exploiting the protocol and when the attackers abused bitcoin blockchain by turning it into a cloud storage; not when fees went up and it started affecting them individually.

The problem now is diagnosed and one solution was proposed by LukeDashjr and Jack Dorsey but it was not supported massively because it will break one of strongest strength of Bitcoin blockchain: censorship-resistance.

pooya87

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Many Bitcoiners including me have been calling Ordinals an attack for nearly a year now and I have to say the fact that part of the Bitcoin community needed the fees to go up first before they could see Ordinals as it really is shows the community has still not reached complete maturity and I dare say some of them have not yet understood what bitcoin is.

A mature community would have been this concerned a year ago when the attack began by exploiting the protocol and when the attackers abused bitcoin blockchain by turning it into a cloud storage; not when fees went up and it started affecting them individually.

Kakmakr

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Well, I say... let them burn their money, if they are doing this to sabotage Bitcoin. Let the miners do their thing and let the developers analyze this threat and implement their counter measures.

We should never forget that Bitcoin is still experimental ... we still need to figure out if the tx fees will be enough to reward the miners.. once the Block reward falls away.

It is just part of the evolution of this technology and ALL other tokens would have collapsed under an attack like this.... Bitcoin is still standing. Wink

NotATether

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Quote from: dansus021 on December 19, 2023, 10:46:03 PM

I don't know but the Bitcoin developer or the ordinal developer should figure this out or the fee will be this high for a long time.

There is no "Ordinals developer". There's only a bunch of people throwing programming shit at the wall to see what sticks.

As for bitcoin developers, well the default tendency is to do nothing, except for a small minority of them.

kryptqnick

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I'm happy that the last time the craze blew over, so I just hope we'll see the same again soon. Unfortunately, there seems to be a big enough market for those useless images and inscriptions. Ideally, Bitcoin just shouldn't be used for that, and I'd be in support of a motion to restrict such projects on Bitcoin blockchain because there are plenty of other blockchains to use for that stuff. Leaving Bitcoin alone is just basic decency. Its transaction capabilities aren't that good even without all these extra transactions, and using other platforms for this stuff is not a hard thing to do.

dansus021

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Huhhhhh Ordinals is crazy bro the sats and rats pumping hard like 200% in a fucking single day and it seems this transaction not gonna stop.

I don't know but the Bitcoin developer or the ordinal developer should figure this out or the fee will be this high for a long time. ordinal should move to other chain or figure it out to creating new chain like layer 2 for bitcoin so rollup all the ordinal transaction and push it to bitcoin I think is the best idea for now rather than do on chain like today.

bbc.reporter

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Quote from: libert19 on December 18, 2023, 11:14:51 PM

Quote from: Casdinyard on December 18, 2023, 12:15:40 PM

Months past and clealry this is still seen as an issue. And correct me if I were wrong but I don’t think Ordinals is doing that much of an impact to network congestion at this point, cause surprise surprise, NFTs are effectively dead. Now this either means that there’s something else afoot causing all this unnecessary traffic and high transaction fees over long wait times, or scalability is already becoming a more prevlanet problem in the bitcoin network than what we have expected. Perhaps this is the blocksize war biting our asses back with twice the PSI

I am unsure of precise difference between ordinals and brc20 but, these two combined have congested the network. There plenty brc20 tokens are popping up these days, and on the first glance they look literal shitcoins but people are printing money, exchanges are listing them.

It's hype of these tokens that's congesting the network, we have seen similar happening on ethereum.

NFT hype may have toned down, they are certainly not dead.

Quote

Now what do we do in this situation? Do we just wait? Do we ban Ordinals so they can’t contribute to the traffic any longer? What’s in place to make sure that even temporarily we have this be taken care of?

I wouldn't honestly ban them (however you do it, idk), I feel like it's running away from the problem (that's Bitcoin's inability to handle larger amount of transactions) than solving it.

Agreed on NFTs are not dead. Anyone who mentions that they are dead appears to have not made their research. They only need to look the price of a Cryptopunk on opensea.io.

In any case, on BRC20, it is a token standard that uses ordinals inscriptions. Similar to how images are inscribed to a satoshi for ordinals NFT, on BRC20 a json file is inscribed.

justdimin

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Quote from: bbc.reporter on May 15, 2023, 10:58:09 PM

Quote from: Darker45 on May 13, 2023, 11:47:33 PM

What is a major issue to me is that there is something in Bitcoin that could be taken advantage of by its adversaries to bring it down. And the attack is happening right now at the expense not just of Bitcoin's reputation, its adoption, but more so of the people who have relied on it one way or another.

I can quite agree that this is certainly what they are doing. It might also be the only reason and they do not really care which altcoin we use to replace bitcoin. BSV coin might only be a trick to make everyone assume that someone is scamming us. The real reason might be as straigthforward as they only want us to stop using bitcoin, however, we cannot see this.

I think there are a lot of powerful people who do want us to stop using bitcoin, however since it's a free world and regulations are not that high, we do have a lot of people who are rich and likes bitcoin as well. So I think there is an argument at the top, some people want us to stop, and want to do something about that, and some people wants us to use it and like it and they are fighting for that.

This is the reason why there isn't a clear noise coming from the top, even if you are some crazy person who thinks illuminati rules the world, it's literally the same logic, think about it like not all illuminati people wants it or hates it, they have arguments over it together. So all the powerful people in the world likes to see them argue.

libert19

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Quote from: Casdinyard on December 18, 2023, 12:15:40 PM

Months past and clealry this is still seen as an issue. And correct me if I were wrong but I don’t think Ordinals is doing that much of an impact to network congestion at this point, cause surprise surprise, NFTs are effectively dead. Now this either means that there’s something else afoot causing all this unnecessary traffic and high transaction fees over long wait times, or scalability is already becoming a more prevlanet problem in the bitcoin network than what we have expected. Perhaps this is the blocksize war biting our asses back with twice the PSI

I am unsure of precise difference between ordinals and brc20 but, these two combined have congested the network. There plenty brc20 tokens are popping up these days, and on the first glance they look literal shitcoins but people are printing money, exchanges are listing them.

It's hype of these tokens that's congesting the network, we have seen similar happening on ethereum.

NFT hype may have toned down, they are certainly not dead.

Quote

Now what do we do in this situation? Do we just wait? Do we ban Ordinals so they can’t contribute to the traffic any longer? What’s in place to make sure that even temporarily we have this be taken care of?

I wouldn't honestly ban them (however you do it, idk), I feel like it's running away from the problem (that's Bitcoin's inability to handle larger amount of transactions) than solving it.

wavessurfing

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Quote from: Casdinyard on December 18, 2023, 12:15:40 PM

Months past and clealry this is still seen as an issue. And correct me if I were wrong but I don’t think Ordinals is doing that much of an impact to network congestion at this point, cause surprise surprise, NFTs are effectively dead. Now this either means that there’s something else afoot causing all this unnecessary traffic and high transaction fees over long wait times, or scalability is already becoming a more prevlanet problem in the bitcoin network than what we have expected. Perhaps this is the blocksize war biting our asses back with twice the PSI

Now what do we do in this situation? Do we just wait? Do we ban Ordinals so they can’t contribute to the traffic any longer? What’s in place to make sure that even temporarily we have this be taken care of?

interesting discussion.
probably a mainstream cause as the extent of the problem appears important.

Casdinyard

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Months past and clealry this is still seen as an issue. And correct me if I were wrong but I don’t think Ordinals is doing that much of an impact to network congestion at this point, cause surprise surprise, NFTs are effectively dead. Now this either means that there’s something else afoot causing all this unnecessary traffic and high transaction fees over long wait times, or scalability is already becoming a more prevlanet problem in the bitcoin network than what we have expected. Perhaps this is the blocksize war biting our asses back with twice the PSI

Now what do we do in this situation? Do we just wait? Do we ban Ordinals so they can’t contribute to the traffic any longer? What’s in place to make sure that even temporarily we have this be taken care of?

Topic: 'Attack on Bitcoin’ Claims Circulate as Transaction Fees Climb Higher - page 3. (Read 1042 times)