Creditors Committee – 11 Oct 17
Bitcoin Builder has engaged a lawyer that is looking at establishing a Creditors Committee. This is a committee that can to some limited degree call the Trustee to account. They cannot dictate terms, but they can make their feelings clear to him, and suggest actions, and if necessary call him to the Tokyo court to challenge his decisions.
Apparently even though Japanese law allows for a Creditors Committee, it’s never been done before. It requires a majority of creditors to agree. We are looking at the details of how this consensus has to be proven to the court, however we may have access to email addresses from all creditors, so gaining and demonstrating that consensus is not an impossibility.
If we have a creditors committee we can call the Trustee to be more transparent and accountable, as well as challenging his decisions. It doesn’t mean that we can over-rule his decisions, but it will be a powerful tool to oppose his current plan of action.
Here is the information provided by Bitcoin Builder’s lawyer to the Google group.
” What the creditors committee can do other than calling for a creditors meeting: the creditors committee may state its opinions to the court or a bankruptcy trustee in bankruptcy proceedings (see Art 144 of the Law). A bankruptcy trustee is required to hear opinions of the creditors committee with regard to the matters concerning the administration and disposition of property that belongs to the bankruptcy estate (see Art 145 of the Law).
Regarding how to set up (ii) the creditors committee, here is the requirement.
(a) The number of committee members is not less than three and not more than ten.
(b) It is found that the majority of bankruptcy creditors consent to the committee’s participation in bankruptcy proceedings.
(c) It is found that the committee will properly represent the interest of bankruptcy creditors as a whole.
Thus, what need to be done first to set up a creditor’s committee is to contact bankruptcy creditors and get proxy from majority of them.”
The next step is to get clear understanding of what the court requires as proof that a majority of creditors agrees to a committee being established, and a team, of three-10, creditors, representing different claim sizes, volunteer to be on the committee.
Topic: ATTENTION! To all Mtgox creditors - page 2. (Read 905 times)
Not All Creditors Are The Same – 10 Oct 17
Keep in mind that not all creditors have the same motivations.
Fiat creditors are unaffected by the fluctuating BTC price, as long as it stays above a level which gives them a 100% payout. Their motivation more than anything, I assume, is to get this resolved quickly.
I understand that some BTC creditors that took legal advice at the start filed bankruptcy claims against Tibanne and Mark, as well as Mt Gox before the deadline for it closed. This means that if “surplus” flows to shareholders in stead of creditors, they stand to get a triple payout. Obviously this motivates them to inhibit our efforts.
Because Tibanne and Mark are both bankrupt, they are legally protected from law suits, other than claims made to their bankruptcy trustee. Failing that they can be sued when the bankruptcy is all over if they are sitting on a settlement and worth going after, but at that point we may be fighting for slim pickings.
Those with larger claims might bet on smaller creditors dropping-out of the pool if the only way to recoup money is by launching a law suit against Tibanne and Mark after money has been paid to shareholders, leaving them with a larger slice of the pie. A co-operative of smaller claimants with legal representation would dissuade them against this.
And even among BTC creditors who have approved claims solely against Mt Gox, some are happy to wait if it means a better chance at a larger payout, while others just want it all to be over.
Full disclosure: I only have a claim filed against Mt.Gox, for around 100BTC. The information here is my opinion and should not be considered legal advice; only a lawyer can provide that, and if you don’t have one, you should consider getting one: why not contribute to our shared lawyer? We start collecting contributions as soon as terms are agreed with him, (hopefully) by the end of this week.
Keep in mind that not all creditors have the same motivations.
Fiat creditors are unaffected by the fluctuating BTC price, as long as it stays above a level which gives them a 100% payout. Their motivation more than anything, I assume, is to get this resolved quickly.
I understand that some BTC creditors that took legal advice at the start filed bankruptcy claims against Tibanne and Mark, as well as Mt Gox before the deadline for it closed. This means that if “surplus” flows to shareholders in stead of creditors, they stand to get a triple payout. Obviously this motivates them to inhibit our efforts.
Because Tibanne and Mark are both bankrupt, they are legally protected from law suits, other than claims made to their bankruptcy trustee. Failing that they can be sued when the bankruptcy is all over if they are sitting on a settlement and worth going after, but at that point we may be fighting for slim pickings.
Those with larger claims might bet on smaller creditors dropping-out of the pool if the only way to recoup money is by launching a law suit against Tibanne and Mark after money has been paid to shareholders, leaving them with a larger slice of the pie. A co-operative of smaller claimants with legal representation would dissuade them against this.
And even among BTC creditors who have approved claims solely against Mt Gox, some are happy to wait if it means a better chance at a larger payout, while others just want it all to be over.
Full disclosure: I only have a claim filed against Mt.Gox, for around 100BTC. The information here is my opinion and should not be considered legal advice; only a lawyer can provide that, and if you don’t have one, you should consider getting one: why not contribute to our shared lawyer? We start collecting contributions as soon as terms are agreed with him, (hopefully) by the end of this week.
The problem is between creditors and shareolders: they both want something.
We have to see what japan laws says on that... and who has the best lawyer
and much more money to put in the matter.
Claims was made in bitcoins and fiat as well as some people had both of them,
I had just bitcoins and I claimed just that.
We have to see what japan laws says on that... and who has the best lawyer
and much more money to put in the matter.
Claims was made in bitcoins and fiat as well as some people had both of them,
I had just bitcoins and I claimed just that.
Come on Paranuatu, let's talk of something concrete: bitcoins are a reality, are worth more than gold...!!
We are the creditors, we sent a value to mtgox (bitcoins or fiat currency) and those money belong to us...
I really hope you understand that... this is a serious matter, there are people with a lot of moneys involved...
and people with less money and part of savings there, is not a joke!
Thanks...
I understand, I would also want to be paid in itcoins of course.We are the creditors, we sent a value to mtgox (bitcoins or fiat currency) and those money belong to us...
I really hope you understand that... this is a serious matter, there are people with a lot of moneys involved...
and people with less money and part of savings there, is not a joke!
Thanks...
I just don't know how these things work, if the claimes were filed in fiat or bitcoin.
But its true if it was the opposite.
Come on Paranuatu, let's talk of something concrete: bitcoins are a reality, are worth more than gold...!!
We are the creditors, we sent a value to mtgox (bitcoins or fiat currency) and those money belong to us...
I really hope you understand that... this is a serious matter, there are people with a lot of moneys involved...
and people with less money and part of savings there, is not a joke!
Thanks...
We are the creditors, we sent a value to mtgox (bitcoins or fiat currency) and those money belong to us...
I really hope you understand that... this is a serious matter, there are people with a lot of moneys involved...
and people with less money and part of savings there, is not a joke!
Thanks...
But what if it was the opposite, bitcoin today worth 0. People would be happy taking th 470.
I will post all the www.mtgoxlegal.com updates. If you are an Mtgox creditor and want all the informations on the matter
don't hesitate in contacting me or www.mtgoxlegal.com administrator Andy Pag
Update: Lawyer choice and fundraising 9-Oct-17
Lawyer I’ve contacted four lawyers in Japan, and narrowed the selection to one.
I’m in negotiations with Mugi Sekido, a respected Japanese bankruptcy lawyer at MHM Japan. I’ts one of the big four Japanese law firms. You can see the email exchange I’ve had with him at the google group [email protected], in an email entitled Negotiations with Sekido.
His rate is 47,000yen/hour, and he has agreed to cap it at $30,000. He is also asking for an uncapped success fee of 2.5% of any increased pay out over 50,058Yen/BTC.
I have asked him to consider a 2% success fee, and requested there must also be a clear link between increased payout and his intervention.
I have also recommended that we start by providing a retainer of up to ~$10,000 for research work to develop a plan/strategy. Once we have obtained that, we as creditors can review it before proceeding to make up the rest of the $30k retainer, which will include the cost of taking action and litigation.
I’m expecting to hear back from him this week. As soon as we have agreed terms I will start fundraising.
Fundraising
Fundraising will happen through this website. It will be by credit/debit card using a stripe account I have set up expressly for this task.
The first target is to raise the $10k (plus transaction fees). Initially I am asking for a flat fee of $100 from each creditor who wants to be involved. This is a small enough that I hope everyone can afford it, and with just 100 creditors we can reach the target. It represents great value for dedicated legal advice.
If further funds are needed, then we will look at a fairer way of asking for those funds. This might be a pro-rata based on the size of claims, or might again be a tiered fee fee.
Why not do it all pro-rata? Because someone has to verify all claims sizes, and this takes time and effort to do. If you want to volunteer that time, let me know. Also there is an issue of creditors sharing their information which makes this problematic. Even if we do calculate a price pro-rata, then someone decides to opt out, we have to recalculate everyone’s share. It’s hours of work, so for now, it’s a flat fee. I appreciate it’s less fair on very small creditors, but that’s why it’s only $100. If you can think of a better way, then do it.
What’s to stop creditors sitting on their pockets and benefiting from others who contribute? Firstly, the advice and information provided by the lawyer will only be shared with creditors who contribute financially. Secondly action taken by the lawyer will be done in the name of creditors who contribute. While it’s possible that that action will benefit all creditors, it’s also possible that the lawyer will find a way to enhance the claims he is representing. We don’t know yet, but if that second scenario is the case, then we will instruct “our” lawyer to act on “our” behalf, and we are not obliged to declare it to other creditors. Other large creditors have already done this and currently stand to benefit from the advantage their legal representation has given them.
However that’s not the intention. The hope is that many creditors will be involved in this initiative, and it will benefit them all. It is open to all creditors to join at this stage.
don't hesitate in contacting me or www.mtgoxlegal.com administrator Andy Pag
Update: Lawyer choice and fundraising 9-Oct-17
Lawyer I’ve contacted four lawyers in Japan, and narrowed the selection to one.
I’m in negotiations with Mugi Sekido, a respected Japanese bankruptcy lawyer at MHM Japan. I’ts one of the big four Japanese law firms. You can see the email exchange I’ve had with him at the google group [email protected], in an email entitled Negotiations with Sekido.
His rate is 47,000yen/hour, and he has agreed to cap it at $30,000. He is also asking for an uncapped success fee of 2.5% of any increased pay out over 50,058Yen/BTC.
I have asked him to consider a 2% success fee, and requested there must also be a clear link between increased payout and his intervention.
I have also recommended that we start by providing a retainer of up to ~$10,000 for research work to develop a plan/strategy. Once we have obtained that, we as creditors can review it before proceeding to make up the rest of the $30k retainer, which will include the cost of taking action and litigation.
I’m expecting to hear back from him this week. As soon as we have agreed terms I will start fundraising.
Fundraising
Fundraising will happen through this website. It will be by credit/debit card using a stripe account I have set up expressly for this task.
The first target is to raise the $10k (plus transaction fees). Initially I am asking for a flat fee of $100 from each creditor who wants to be involved. This is a small enough that I hope everyone can afford it, and with just 100 creditors we can reach the target. It represents great value for dedicated legal advice.
If further funds are needed, then we will look at a fairer way of asking for those funds. This might be a pro-rata based on the size of claims, or might again be a tiered fee fee.
Why not do it all pro-rata? Because someone has to verify all claims sizes, and this takes time and effort to do. If you want to volunteer that time, let me know. Also there is an issue of creditors sharing their information which makes this problematic. Even if we do calculate a price pro-rata, then someone decides to opt out, we have to recalculate everyone’s share. It’s hours of work, so for now, it’s a flat fee. I appreciate it’s less fair on very small creditors, but that’s why it’s only $100. If you can think of a better way, then do it.
What’s to stop creditors sitting on their pockets and benefiting from others who contribute? Firstly, the advice and information provided by the lawyer will only be shared with creditors who contribute financially. Secondly action taken by the lawyer will be done in the name of creditors who contribute. While it’s possible that that action will benefit all creditors, it’s also possible that the lawyer will find a way to enhance the claims he is representing. We don’t know yet, but if that second scenario is the case, then we will instruct “our” lawyer to act on “our” behalf, and we are not obliged to declare it to other creditors. Other large creditors have already done this and currently stand to benefit from the advantage their legal representation has given them.
However that’s not the intention. The hope is that many creditors will be involved in this initiative, and it will benefit them all. It is open to all creditors to join at this stage.
After nine creditors meeting we still don't have any concrete answer on Mtgox Bitcoin destiny.
I'm constantly looking for updates on the internet and I finally found 2 website
https://mtgoxprotest.com
https://mtgoxlegal.com
these websites are managed by 2 creditors that are in Japan and are trying to figure out what's going on:
unfortunately this is what we as creditors are risking now (from www.mtgoxlegal.com)
"The Bankruptcy Trustee has valued BTC claims at the market price at the time of bankruptcy. In the last few months the value has increased to around 10 times that historic value. As a result the bankruptcy trustee now controls more assets than liabilities.
The trustee proposes to give the excess value to shareholders, (i.e. the people who were in charge when the bankruptcy occurred,) and give BTC creditors less than a tenth of what the Bitcoins they lost are worth."
Kolin Burges of https://mtgoxprotest.com is creating a Creditors’ Committee;
Andy Pag (aka Andrew Pagnacco) of https://mtgoxlegal.com is coordinating a legal action to stop the $1,000,000,000
surplus going to the people responsible for the exchange when it was hacked, and instead have it shared among creditors who were
victims of crime.
I've recently joined them and I'm here to ask to all Mtgox creditors to join us because we risk to see just 473$ per Bitcoin claimed
that's the 15% of the actual value around 7200$.
From mtgoxlegal:
We are over 500 creditors. We have raised $30,000 to cover all legal fees in just 6 days. We represent an estimated claim size of over 60kBTC, making us the second largest body of creditors. We’ve hired a lawyer from a top-4 Japanese law firm. We have a paid administrator employed by this group and a team of 10 volunteers. And we are growing.
If you are a BTC creditor, please join us to share the legal advice provided by our lawyer and the research work we’ve share among members
I ask to everybody to kindly share this: we need to be much more as possible to have a leverage on the court.
I'm available to answer to any kind of question on the matter.
Thanks for your attention.
I'm constantly looking for updates on the internet and I finally found 2 website
https://mtgoxprotest.com
https://mtgoxlegal.com
these websites are managed by 2 creditors that are in Japan and are trying to figure out what's going on:
unfortunately this is what we as creditors are risking now (from www.mtgoxlegal.com)
"The Bankruptcy Trustee has valued BTC claims at the market price at the time of bankruptcy. In the last few months the value has increased to around 10 times that historic value. As a result the bankruptcy trustee now controls more assets than liabilities.
The trustee proposes to give the excess value to shareholders, (i.e. the people who were in charge when the bankruptcy occurred,) and give BTC creditors less than a tenth of what the Bitcoins they lost are worth."
Kolin Burges of https://mtgoxprotest.com is creating a Creditors’ Committee;
Andy Pag (aka Andrew Pagnacco) of https://mtgoxlegal.com is coordinating a legal action to stop the $1,000,000,000
surplus going to the people responsible for the exchange when it was hacked, and instead have it shared among creditors who were
victims of crime.
I've recently joined them and I'm here to ask to all Mtgox creditors to join us because we risk to see just 473$ per Bitcoin claimed
that's the 15% of the actual value around 7200$.
From mtgoxlegal:
We are over 500 creditors. We have raised $30,000 to cover all legal fees in just 6 days. We represent an estimated claim size of over 60kBTC, making us the second largest body of creditors. We’ve hired a lawyer from a top-4 Japanese law firm. We have a paid administrator employed by this group and a team of 10 volunteers. And we are growing.
If you are a BTC creditor, please join us to share the legal advice provided by our lawyer and the research work we’ve share among members
I ask to everybody to kindly share this: we need to be much more as possible to have a leverage on the court.
I'm available to answer to any kind of question on the matter.
Thanks for your attention.
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