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Topic: Basic income guarantee - opinions&criticism welcome - page 10. (Read 14389 times)

member
Activity: 85
Merit: 10
Make sure your plan details what happens to people who refuse (rape, murder and imprisonment generally get decent compliance rates). And don't forget to budget for that too, institutionalized rape costs a lot even if you do it in a bare concrete room and serve animal food with it.

People who refuse what? To take the money? Then they are free to not do it, and it can be donated to needy stand-up comedians on the Bitcoin Forum Wink
Or perhaps you are talking about people who refuse to pay taxes - then they are free to move to another country, of course. One that has ghettos, higher infant mortality and low societal stability because of the income inequality.
member
Activity: 85
Merit: 10
Very interesting and fully agree with you on overproduction making much of our labour unnecessary.

This would put anyone who does produce under a much larger burden. Instead of huge increases on taxes on the existing structure would it be possible to buy existing production through crowd funding and use the profits to fund further expansion until the goal in reachable?


I think crowd funding is not reliable - if you are going to support a whole population, you need a strict and reliable way to redistribute the money.

Perhaps you might like ... the Occcu:
Hah, thanks for the links. I'd look into that, but it is a bit different in its concept, as it penalizes saving, which I am definitely not against.

1/It reduces or eliminates incentive to work
2/It diverts money from investment to consumption, reducing long term capital accumulation
3/There are no guarantees in nature, the subsistence of life does not produce itself. Man must adjust himself to the market not the other way around.
1) the incentive is still there - you want a bigger house, a nicer car and the opportunity to vacation in Maiorca? Get a job and make more money.
2) The Vienna school will disagree with you; they'd claim that you need to encourage consumption and investment comes only when you create that consumption need
3) The argument whether something is "natural" strikes me as bizarre. Society is not natural by definition, on the contrary, by creating the social contract it defies the violence inherent in nature in order to ensure a happier life for people. The market is a tool, not a living being, and as a tool it can be modified when need be.

My main issue with it then is that most models require the "big state" solution which may become corrupt over time (see GEMA - what a great idea in its beginning, democratic and all, but look what it has become  Angry). Unconditional my ass, more and more conditions *will* sneak in through the back door, just watch.

So I'm looking for other ways to achieve something similar to a basic income guarantee. The best would be when people can issue their money themselves (think Ripple etc). Some friends and me, we're working on the concept of some kind of network economy.

About automation and technological unemployment, most libertarians will argue that your point here is a Luddite fallacy, and I agree to a degree. [...] And you'll be there then demanding an unconditional spaceship for everyone. In 500 years, maybe there'll be interstellar travel, and the new working class will be, I don't know, maybe space-time curvature architects.

Danke für den langen Post Smiley
For conditions being added over time - if you have a transparent state mechanism and popular participation through technologies (another of the Pirates' goals), chances are this will not happen. A bit idealistic, but hey, new technologies are a game changer, right?
I would be interested in looking into your concept if you want to share some info on that.
One thing that the Luddites did not reckon is the fact that Earth resources are close to being exhausted. If we continue to develop technologically, there might not be enough rare earth metals to build all those shiny spaceships. Even disregarding that, the BIG system does not only focus on consumption, but rather on the freedom of an individual to pursue their goals without fear of starving to death. But that is the part you agree with, so I will not argue further.

Now to a practical concern of mine:
One thing which I acknowledge as a problem is the inflationary pressure on prices. If everyone suddenly got 1000 EUR richer, the rent for flats would increase accordingly, as well as goods prices. So then you either have to have the state regulate such things (not a good idea?) or somehow circumvent that. I'm still looking for a practical way to do that, suggestions are welcome Wink
legendary
Activity: 1246
Merit: 1016
Strength in numbers
Make sure your plan details what happens to people who refuse (rape, murder and imprisonment generally get decent compliance rates). And don't forget to budget for that too, institutionalized rape costs a lot even if you do it in a bare concrete room and serve animal food with it.
legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1007
I'm German too, and I actually was at the Grundeinkommenskongress in Munich yesterday (briefly only though). My view on it is divided.

I welcome it in a very pragmatic sense for drastically reducing bureaucracy of our social system (only in theory though... we're in Germany after all  Roll Eyes). I furthermore welcome the idea of eliminating existential fears, which I'm confident will create a better and more human standard of living with more care and happiness, and I do believe (unlike most libertarians) that a society with insufficient equality can not realize its full potential.

My main issue with it then is that most models require the "big state" solution which may become corrupt over time (see GEMA - what a great idea in its beginning, democratic and all, but look what it has become  Angry). Unconditional my ass, more and more conditions *will* sneak in through the back door, just watch.

So I'm looking for other ways to achieve something similar to a basic income guarantee. The best would be when people can issue their money themselves (think Ripple etc). Some friends and me, we're working on the concept of some kind of network economy.

About automation and technological unemployment, most libertarians will argue that your point here is a Luddite fallacy, and I agree to a degree. New technology opens more possibilities, creates more desires and demand for those possibilities, and thus creates new jobs. For example, we software developers are in huge demand right now in order to achieve this automated society, and we will be the working class of the 21st century. They're already trying to streamline our productivity into industrialization-like schemes with all those agile/scrum/kanban (Toyota!) methodologies. The problem with technology is rather always structural. People lose old obsolete jobs and cannot learn new things fast enough, hence these phases of recession. In 200 years, everyone will want their own spaceship, then soon after everybody will actually *need* their own spaceship in order to be able to get a job at all somewhere in our solar system. And you'll be there then demanding an unconditional spaceship for everyone. In 500 years, maybe there'll be interstellar travel, and the new working class will be, I don't know, maybe space-time curvature architects.
legendary
Activity: 3472
Merit: 1722


Interventionism never works. I would prefer to not receive any 'free' money from the government in return for zero taxation.
sr. member
Activity: 336
Merit: 250
There are no guarantees in nature, the subsistence of life does not produce itself. Man must adjust himself to the market not the other way around.

What a great quote.
full member
Activity: 322
Merit: 100
Everyone? Including my kids?

"Honey, time to make more babies!"

That happens now, with welfare.
member
Activity: 87
Merit: 10
1/It reduces or eliminates incentive to work
2/It diverts money from investment to consumption, reducing long term capital accumulation
3/There are no guarantees in nature, the subsistence of life does not produce itself. Man must adjust himself to the market not the other way around.
legendary
Activity: 2506
Merit: 1010
am excited about their promotion of the idea of a Basic income guarantee.

Perhaps you might like ... the Occcu:




Introducing The Occcu - 99% Unlike Bitcoin
 - http://www.bitcoinmoney.com/post/17199295201


New Epic Fail Currency? 'Occcu'
 - https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/new-epic-fail-currency-occcu-62983


Or Freicoin:

Freicoin: bitcoin with demurrage
 - https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/freicoin-bitcoin-with-demurrage-3816
member
Activity: 85
Merit: 10
Hello BTC community!

I am a member of the German Pirate Party and am excited about their promotion of the idea of a Basic income guarantee.
You can read about it here, among other places: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_income_guarantee

The idea is that:
1) People are producing more than they need, and with the further development of technology even less people will be needed to produce even more. Since less people will be working to produce, society as a whole would earn less, and therefore the population will not be able to afford to purchase all the goods being produced, eventually leading to bigger and bigger problems.
2) To overcome that, everyone is given a certain sum by the state every month that should provide for the basic amenities of life. Luxury goods will be available to those who can earn more money in the usual way, thus continuing to encourage private initiative.
3) Since the basic amenities will be covered, people will be free to pursue activities not directly related to their survival - like coding for Bitcoin Wink
4) Financing for this whole venture would be obtained by taxes on products purchased and by abolition of unemployment subsidies (among other methods)

Now, this is definitely a big state solution and I suppose that the multi-headed libertarian hydra on this forum will not like it, but I am ready to defend it Smiley

Some more arguments already for your critique: the unemployment subsidies + underlying bureaucracy in Germany can be redistributed among the 80 million Germans at the rate of about 12.5k EUR per year. So 1000k EUR of basic income guarantee per month is realistic. This can be further expanded with several different approaches to taxation.

So yeah, I'm curious to see what the community thinks about it.
Thanks for reading,

M
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