Topic: [BBR] Boolberry Speculation - page 8. (Read 15874 times)

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look at the transaction volumes, even for BCN which is almost 10x the volumes of XMR and BBR has more transactions than XMR.
Now cryptonote tech is all fine, but let us imagine you are using a payphone in the australian outback and you are the only one that used a payphone that hour. just exactly how much privacy can cryptonote, or anything provide, when the transactions are ~10 per hour?

subtract out the mining tx and we have hardly any transactions. So if anybody seriously believes that even all the cryptonotes combined can provide privacy for 100 BTC of value over a small period of time, they are deluded. At current volumes, maybe over a month it will take, maybe more, havent done the calcs.

The jumblr coinshuffle i did works with BTC, LTC, BTCD, basically any bitcoin compatible, so it taps into the vast transaction pool. Now imagine being able to combine the privacy of cryptonote, with a realtime coinshuffle (no blockchain record of the shuffle), with the large transactions of BTC. In my opinion, only such a combined approach will provide any real privacy.

However, even that is not enough!

If there is a background level of 10 tx per hour, then it is a trivial matter to correlate any large spike. Depending on the resources the attacker has, even the IP address could be correlated if protective measures are not taken. If everything is on the blockchain,then down the road when QC computing is available, then the entire history becomes an open book. That is why offchain shuffling is a critical part of the solution.

Another critical part is simply having a lot of activity, say something like a blockchain enforced decentralized poker.

BTCD will have a unique method of delinking transactions where the initial recipient is very nearly 100% protected, even at the IP level. However, the initial sender is still linkable to the second recipient:

Alice -> Bob -> Charlie looks as Alice -> Charlie, with Bob nowhere visible on the blockchain, ever.

the coinshuffle makes the "->" a bit fuzzier, but this is an area where the more volumes, the better for all, especially if the "->" is using cryptonote as input and/or output. but once we do cross-currency shuffles/transfers, then it exposes the exchange between the two as a possible attack vector.

As you can see, to solve privacy for real not just on paper, it is a very difficult and large task. Without volumes, there is no privacy, that is why I am frontloading things that will create the volumes. What point to have perfect privacy on paper that in reality is trivial to brute force correlate due to small overall volumes?

James

James,

Thank you for your response. What is your specific question about the chainradar data? For each block it lists the timestamp, block size, number of transactions and hash. Difficulty and emissions totals are there too. What are you wondering?

We are excited about the DB version also! I am glad to hear that it will also help with SuperNET.

I can pass along your comments about wishing more people were in SuperNET slack. We know you have been very busy over the last year. Can I ask why you decided it best to combine coinshuffle with CryptoNote instead of using CryptoNote alone?

I will cross post this to our announcement thread as well for more visibility.

http://chainradar.com/bcn/blocks
http://chainradar.com/bbr/blocks
http://chainradar.com/xmr/blocks

can anybody comment on those three pages and what it indicates?

I have always been focused on usage, not speculative prices. With cryptonotes, the blockchain size is a key issue and while BBR has the pruning, if it has to be RAM resident that defeats the purpose to a large degree. I am very glad to see a DB version in testing as until that is out, the footprint is too big.

In the last year I have coded from scratch ramchains, MGW, InstantDEX, SuperNET agents, atomic wallet swaps, jumblr coinshuffle, pangea decentralized poker and PAX pegged asset exchange, currently ~100,000 lines of C code. This is just the code I personally wrote, not counting all the non-coding issues of managing a large decentralized community, nor of the contributions of dozens of other devs. I dont believe many people understand the full scale and scope of what I am working on, let alone of the entire SuperNET.

Due to my workload, I am not posting much on BTT, nor can I be proactively working on BBR integration into SuperNET at this point. That being said, I think what can be done is for a SuperNET agent to be created that allows for using BBR by all the SuperNET nodes. A SuperNET agent allows a set of node(s) to publish a service to all the other nodes in the network, this is how MGW is implemented. I think combining coinshuffle with a cryptonote would be quite a powerful combination.

A BBR agent would facilitate its usage, but really what is needed is more active involvement by BBR dev team in the SuperNET slack. If you think of SuperNET as a shopping mall, then the BBR store is there, but without BBR peoples, it will be an empty store.

James

The concept is great but implementation will be very difficult.  There are questions about scaling that are not yet clear to me.

What do you all think about Augur? I heard that despite running on the Ethereum platform, it will be currency agnostic. I would love to see Boolberry accepted.

Imagine making anonymous (or at least pseudo-anonymous) predictions with an anonymous currency.

Unfortunately finding someone like that will not be easy. Market makers prefer coins with higher volume.  We need to grow the size the community more before trading volume and liquidity will increase substantially.

It would be great for someone to volunteer to become a market maker on the different exchanges. They could narrow the bid/ask spread and increase liquidity on both the buy and sell sides.

Increased volume would have the potential to compensate for narrower margins between the bid and ask.

Current Boolberry exchanges in alphabetical order:

https://bittrex.com/Market/?MarketName=BTC-BBR
https://bter.com/trade/BBR_BTC
https://poloniex.com/exchange#btc_bbr

More liquidity would be a good thing. Right now we should support our existing exchanges and try to sign up merchants.

I doubt one entity owns a very large percentage of the coins, but with CryptoNote richlists are impossible so we will never know for sure. Emissions is relatively slow so most coins have yet to be mined.  Low liquidity makes it almost impossible for one entity to buy a large percentage of the coins without drastically driving up the price.

Volume may pick up again once the db code in github is done being tested.

Why is there high potential for one entity to own a large amount of this coin?  Low liquidity does not lend itself to mass accumulation.

The thread below is now locked so nobody else can respond there.  Is the betax comparison a fair one? If it accurate is there still time for BBR to regain market share by emphasizing its advanced features?

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.12040487
"BBR was the betamax of the cryptonote world. A more sensible emission schedule, a clean and usable native GUI, aliases baked in, privacy improvements, much faster syncing (granted, partially down to lower activity- but also to do with variations in the code like alternative PoW mechanism) , smaller blockchain in general, pruneable chain, open source miners, smaller miner gap for privileged parties, reward voting mechanism baked in to incentivize dev.. the list went on.

It's largest issue was not managing to get a community onboard early- XMR managed to get a bunch of reputable BTT members supporting the coin. and not putting in the effort to lobby exchanges to support the coin to provide velocity. The market cap and extremely low liquidity death spiraled it into irrelevancy, and there is no use to attempt recovering a coin where such a high percentage could easily be owned by a single entity at this time.. Better to migrate to a single coin, like Monero or start fresh."

Three questions

1. When do you think SuperNET will be released?

2. What role would you like to see Boolberry perform within SuperNET?

3. Do you think the SuperNET team has the same vision as you for #2?

I believe that CryptoNote is best in class in terms of financial privacy available today. Boolberry is arguably one of the most advanced CryptoNote coins. SuperNET would be wise to integrate BBR as quickly as possible, building off the BBR side integration work cryptozoidberg has already written:

https://github.com/cryptozoidberg/boolberry/commit/14eba55b4a496f2f04f5ad33891fe9f172b7d3db
https://github.com/cryptozoidberg/boolberry/commit/8fe1aa050c49dbabd3e09d82473b0bc1b113fdc7
https://github.com/cryptozoidberg/boolberry/commit/28995ed64f844891c11a14e268550797e4cd5e08
https://github.com/cryptozoidberg/boolberry/commit/efa3e9fa03ad6427fee335b4f466ab45ef079c7f
https://github.com/cryptozoidberg/boolberry/commit/d99dc8018f955989a76e43af0b62424a4e84767b
https://github.com/cryptozoidberg/boolberry/commit/d188d7a053e6124d0006eebeddafcff332b79cb1

Boolberry development will continue and BBR can be highly successful regardless of the role it is ultimately chosen to take within SuperNET

in my opinion, Boolberry will show it's strength as soon as SuperNET will be released. all the core currencies will see a price jump including BBR.

That explanation really makes things easier to understand. Gracias

If a cryptonote coin is using the original emissions structure, then the key variable here is EMISSION_CURVE_CHARACTER which (along with the block time) determines the rate of emission. Each integer increment represents a factor of two in emissions speed. In some of the code bases it is called EMISSION_SPEED_FACTOR.

So for example, Bytecoin uses 18 and Boolberry uses 20, making Boolberry 4x slower than Bytecoin. After adjusting for the block time, Monero is the equivalent of 19, putting it right in the middle of the two. Quazarcoin uses 21, so twice as slow as Boolberry. If I recall correctly Bitcoin (while using a different structure) is somewhere between 20 and 21.

Duck/dark/digitalnote uses a different structure altogether but is much, much faster than the others.

Some new readers of this thread may be interested in seeing what the official GUI looks like. Here are a few screenshots:

Hopefully this will help:
Both Boolberry and Monero have a max supply of about 18.4 million (18446744.073709551615)
Boolberry block times are 120 seconds vs 60 seconds for Monero
The bolded blue below will show that Boolberry emission is twice as slow as Monero.
Monero emission is slower that Duck/Dark/DigitalNote. I can provide additional graphs to compare with other CryptoNote coins if requested.

Boolberry:
base_reward=(EMISSION_SUPPLY - already_generated_coins) >> EMISSION_CURVE_CHARACTER;
if(block_cumulative_size <= median)
  reward = base_reward;
else
  reward = (base_reward*(block_cumulative_size * (2 * median - block_cumulative_size)))/(median2)

Reward Emissions for 10 years:

    Day       Block Reward       Generated Coins
    0         17.416264000000    0%  0.000000000000
    183       15.359717000000    11% 2179953.768778000000
    366       13.546011000000    22% 4102274.357256000000
    549       11.946471000000    31% 5797411.627041000000
    732       10.535808000000    39% 7292216.288657000000
    915       9.291719000000     46% 8610365.351676000000
    1098      8.194534000000     52% 9772737.277389000000
    1281      7.226907000000     58% 10797742.784839000000
    1464      6.373539000000     63% 11701616.548800000000
    1647      5.620939000000     67% 12498674.414764000000
    1830      4.957208000000     71% 13201540.208042000000
    2013      4.371851000000     74% 13821345.733154000000
    2196      3.855614000000     77% 14367907.128588000000
    2379      3.400335000000     80% 14849880.376022000000
    2562      2.998817000000     82% 15274898.428772000000
    2745      2.644711000000     84% 15649692.128002000000
    2928      2.332418000000    86% 15980196.828462000000
    3111      2.057001000000     88% 16271646.419271000000
    3294      1.814107000000     89% 16528656.232190000000
    3477      1.599893000000     90% 16755296.148816000000



Monero:
Block reward = (M - A) * 2-20 * 10-12, where A = current circulation. Roughly 86% mined in 4 years

It might be useful to make a graph comparing BBR emission to other CryptoNote coins instead of the graph showing how the emission speed compared to bitcoin.

By definition anyone who owns some Boolberry probably thinks it has some chance to succeed. Since most people who own Boolberry also own some Monero (I am guessing) they either think that there is room for more that one CryptoNote coin or they are hedging their bets.