Topic: 🔥🔥🔥 BC.GAME - CASINO AND SPORTSBOOK | 200% BONUS - PROMO CODE #BCLCFC 🔥🔥🔥 - page 196. (Read 79729 times)

Correct =)



Correct. But this the same situation as just using a random number generator (which is still unfortunately somewhat of a standard). It's impossible for the player to tell if they were cheated, or not cheated. While if I played at a site with a proper provably fair system, like PrimeDice or Bustabit -- I could actually check if I was cheated or not. And that's the whole point of the scheme =)

To sum up what you said:
1. You are not saying we are cheating
2. There is a possibility for seed manipulation
3. Our scheme gives users no way to prove whether we are fair.


Thanks for believing us. Such discussion is valuable advice to us and we really appreciate. Though we are not seasoned in blockchain game world, and many things and methods are in the process of exploration for us, seed manipulation is never an option for BC.Game. That's why we are so confident to ask users to prove any unfairness, we are so sure they can't, which you can tell from historical data on Github that we didn't double the expected profit.

But, based on what we discussed, which brings another question for us to think, users can't prove we are unfair while they can't prove we are fair either. We could have doubled our expected profit, which we didn't. It's just what we have now is not very convincing on impossible manipulation. We start to think about using server seed+additional seed. Since we never change our seed once, maybe our plan is to use EOS+BTS hash as an additional seed with our server seed starting from any result of the game. Before we make any decision, there is still something to think about.

I believe you, but we have no way to know that. Which is my entire point =)


I think you are misremembering. The very first iteration of bustabit was released in a way that wasn't provably fair at all. Then Dooglus (from this forum) suggested the idea of the hash-chain (the exact thing you are doing), but then espringe realized that wasn't provably fair either and came up with the block-chain hash modification -- which is what actually makes bustabit provably fair. Bustabit has been using this same concept for several years now, including in the "v1" of it.



While this makes it less likely you're cheating, it doesn't offer players any concrete assurances. You very well could've searched for a seed the resulted in specific patterns (e.g. good games at the start, and the next year lower-than-expected). We simply have no idea.

Just to be clear: I'm not accusing you of cheating. It's just that we have no idea. Which is the antithesis of provably fair.



If you chose a seed fairly, then it'll mean there is no difference. But what it does is prevent you picking an unfair seed.



I think there's a language barrier, and you're not understanding the problem. Let's try simplify this. Let's imagine your system is only going to play 10 rounds:

Do you think your system is "provably fair"? Well, no, it's obviously not. Because it's *trivial* to by-hand find a seed that gives super bad results. You just trial-and-error create a few seeds and see the results.


But what about bustabit's scheme? Would that fair for 10 rounds? Yes! Because they commit to a *particular* hash-chain before knowing if it's good or bad. So this makes trial and error impossible.


So now let's go back to your system: We have no idea how much "trial and error" you did to generate your seed. As an example, you could've tried a billion seeds, and found one that had a giant red-streak in 2 years, to wipe out any martingaler. You could've found a seed such that a particular game will be a particular result. We literally have no idea.

So I think you'll agree: It's possible that under your scheme you picked a seed to achieve a particular result. And that it's impossible for us to ever tell if such manipulation happened.

My calculations show you could relatively easy ~double your expected profit over (any) year period of time, by brute-force checking a few million different seeds.

Haha, we are a game platform, and investment is just one of our option. It's totally up to you. It's like a restaurant serving beef and pork, if you just want pork, we can not force you to eat beef, but it's our right to provide it. We know we need to build a reputation and it's totally understandable you have doubt and question. We are working on it. Thanks for your attention.

Dear RHavar,
     Thanks so much for your big reply. It’s our great honor to talk with the code creator of Bustabit. Hats off to this great game which create a new level for gambling in blockchain world. We couldn’t be more welcome any player to share some insightful idea like you and such constructive discussion is definitely helping us to generate even better idea.


     Since our analysis is based on the idea of a random seed. Here is our point.

1.   There is no manipulation on our seed picking. We believe that “the longer the game runs, the less the statistical difference.” Here is our data, anyone can run a test on it.

https://github.com/BCSNProject/HashCheck
https://bcsnproject.github.io/HashCheck/#/simple




As a developer, I feel necessary to share my view and doubts with you and about how we started this journey.

When we found out about Bustabit, we were wondering did they use any seed choice in version 1.0? We don’t think so, and that’s why we didn’t choose seed manipulation. You may wonder why, haha. To be honest, our seed was based on some randomly-generated memory words for ETH wallet because we were not sure how to do the seed choice favorable to the house. Were we dumb then? And like what I said, it has been almost a year since our foundation, and we haven’t changed our seed once.

There were some challenges for sure. Our experience of 500 ETH lost in one day really raised doubts about whether any player knew about the seed choice. But:

a.   We didn’t refuse any withdrawal.
b.   We didn’t change our seed.
c.   Never try to cover the loss with seed manipulation.
d.   The player continued to play with his strategy and lost 400 ETH back.

Although we didn’t change our seed, we have started to think about why this could happen? We spend a lot of time making a data comparison between BG.Game and Bustabit, to figure out why our high x probability is higher than Bustabit with greater seed activity.

Anyone can do that from the following link:
https://github.com/BCSNProject/HashCheck

We even doubted that they do the seed manipulation but we couldn’t convince ourselves how and why.

Then we reach a conclusion and also brought us back to your advice. Will that make any difference if to use an additional seed.



We don’t believe that additional seed will affect the result to the player in the long term

Chain A
Seed     680597CDC84B239A1C0475C89E0CC5380B1DDF367772C8F3055742C6ACB2C3FF
Result   1.25, 1.79, 2.05, 1.26, 4.66
   
Additional 1 ecca5ad2314b272c0870c5f350b999c4080b703093789c8e6c4d4150aaa03a01
Result 1.85, 2.12, 6.33, 12.02, 1.14

Additional2  182ef24a825bdd37d6d2976ccfbf5b5e58238ba04a6b53434043acfb34fb517a
Result 1.04, 3.09, 4.84, 6.08, 1.03
   

Chain B
Seed    6AA9D8D8BD428C4277F613E74AC1AAE2A81EAF7DAF24C4D459FA030AA63C03D5
Result  8.06, 17.61, 6.96, 1.14, 1.13
   
Additional 1   ecca5ad2314b272c0870c5f350b999c4080b703093789c8e6c4d4150aaa03a01
Result          1.37, 13.65, 2.49, 3.87, 1
   
Additional 2    182ef24a825bdd37d6d2976ccfbf5b5e58238ba04a6b53434043acfb34fb517a
Result            1.15, 5.5, 2.79, 2.28, 4.77
   
   
Chain C

Seed   60CC3C97D3C80396437AF43F3AAC84A460EF2EBA88E79C2D4AC1218DD1923002
Result 1.01, 8.28, 2.79, 5.13, 1.12
   
Additional1   ecca5ad2314b272c0870c5f350b999c4080b703093789c8e6c4d4150aaa03a01
Result  4.38, 1.89, 2.54, 2.01, 1.5
   
Additional 2  182ef24a825bdd37d6d2976ccfbf5b5e58238ba04a6b53434043acfb34fb517a
Result  8.91, 1.57, 1.21, 1.74, 1.72


1.   From this, we agree that with an additional seed, the original seed has no impact on the result.
2.   Additional seed may also cause the condition favorable to the house like Chain C additional 2.
3.   The longer the game runs, the less the statistical difference.

But will additional seed helps solve the problem? Why do some platforms need seed manipulation? Because they need the game favorable to the house. What if additional seed just created a result with low x like Chain C additional 2? How can we make sure it won't?

So to sum up, we don’t think the additional seed is the solution and we are not and will be never use seed manipulation. Only math analysis and data comparison can tell you whether you are using a good one. Not saying we are 100% right, corrections are welcomed.

We are trying our best to help players increasing their experience, such as referral, investment, refund. Reputation and services are both important if we don’t want to be just a “few years” game. We are far from perfect yet but we have great model to learn from, like Bustabit.

We are all growing through open discussion and continuous improvement. Thanks again for all who contributes your idea.

Without even try your game? Do you even aware about your customers that in and out? By saying this, I believe that you are very unaware about whoever comes to your site and play. Even this simple things you can't get it, how to keep your site to the better one. I am just asking for proof that you are holding 100 eth in case that someone really find a bug on your site, yet you insult me with something like "not even try the site" thing?

Just remind you, better do not say something that you dont even have it from the start. If something like this you already cheat, how about the provably fair system?

Yeah and... Honestly I find it dubious how they're pushing you on the invest part.

Lots of casino have the option to invest of course. But here there is more advertisement for the investment than for the games itself.

I don't believe it's safe to invest somewhere without any reputation, asking you so much about your money.
Don't play dumb.

Thanks so much for registration. 8888JB is our platform game coin and it's good to play but not on any exchanges yet.
Since CRASH is a real-time online game (a game in which customers interact with it via the Internet), there is a delay between the time you click on the “Cash Out” button and the time when the server receives your cash out instruction. The best way to avoid damages caused by Internet lag is to use the automatic cash-out function. Since your automatic cash out is sent to the server at the same time when you place your bet, the server can execute your cash out instruction precisely and regardless of the lag.

We strongly suggest that our player set their bet and payout before game start to avoid any cost by the late of the server. For example, if you bet 1 eth and escape at 2x, you still can escape when it hit 1.5.

If any damage caused by the false of our website system that you can prove, please talk to our customer service on TELEGRAM. We may pay you back if it's proved that it is our fault.

How can we be sure the game will not be manipulated? I will like to see prove from an independent body to really analyze this system and provide advice about this bc game. Because anything unfair reward should be looked into with third eyes!

Just to add some nuance: it's not so much their method is unfair, it's just that it's not "provably fair". I actually doubt very much they've picked a bias hash chain, but we really have no way of knowing (hence not provably fair).

There's two points here I see as an objective viewer. Point 1, some parts of the site were copied. A sample is the ToS from Duck Dice, which itself has a bad reputation in the past. Point 2, the site's method is found to be unfair, and demonstrated, so I guess the reward should be given to RHavar, but only if someone else can also confirm that this is true, I think. I am not defending anybody, I think RHavar deserves some kind of reward.

Problem is, I don't get how all these things work. I understand the concept, just not the calculation (sorry I don't know how to explain better).

I'm pointing out the provably-fair scheme was taken from bustabit. I would know, because I am the person who created it  (Originally bustabit used to just be "provably predetermined" but I wrote the code to make it provably fair).


 The seed choice *absolutely* makes a difference, and it can be quite large. Let's say you randomly generate a seed, and generate a hash chain. We can reason pretty easily that the house edge should be 1%.  However, it might be a lot lower (lets say there are lots of low multipliers, it's good for the site)  and it might be a lot higher (if there's lots of high multipliers, it's good for players). But the house edge only looks at "average", so it doesn't matter and we can say the house edge is 1%.

However that analysis is based around the idea of a random seed. To make it easy to demonstrate, I'm going to generate 3 hash chains, of length 5:


Chain A: seed=680597CDC84B239A1C0475C89E0CC5380B1DDF367772C8F3055742C6ACB2C3FF
Result: 4.63, 2.36, 1.22, 2.225, 2.56

Chain B: seed=6AA9D8D8BD428C4277F613E74AC1AAE2A81EAF7DAF24C4D459FA030AA63C03D5
Result: 1.04, 1.00, 1.07, 1.28, 1.02


Chain C: seed=60CC3C97D3C80396437AF43F3AAC84A460EF2EBA88E79C2D4AC1218DD1923002
Result: 1.76, 2.43, 15.27, 3.55, 1.09


Now from this, we can *clearly* see that  B would be the best for the house. Of course the longer the game runs, the less the statistical differences are -- but for the few *years* of games, the house edge can easily have been manipulated to 2x what they should be. The cheating can easily be done with an algorithm:


Where the rank function can be as simple as computing the median of the first few million hashes.

  

It doesn't matter how players are betting, you don't need to know before hand. Even if someone knew for a fact you purposely picked a hash-chain with an abnormal amount of low-crashes, it's impossible for anyone to cheat. It purely increases the house edge.



I hope I've made my point clear:

*) The choice of seed (exclusively) determines the game-crashes in your system
*) The differences between a good-chain and bad-chain are very significant (on my laptop, in a few minutes I am able to double-the house edge for 1 year worth of hashes).
*) We have no way of knowing if you fairly picked a seed or not





The best solution is to do what bustabit has done, use a *future* bitcoin-block hash as an additional seed (after committing to a single chain). This makes it impossible for you to run the "brute force" attack to pick a seed that is favorable to the house.


If you're interested in more information: https://medium.com/@nekoz/generating-a-provably-fair-crash-point-8d502058e8bc


But because we don't know if you picked the seed fairly, your provably fair system isn't actually provably fair.

Thanks so much for pointing that out, and we will update that. We are not perfect and when we hire a translation company to run Website's English version, there may some content from other websites to use as a reference. We will do our best to avoid that. Thanks again.

It's like you are saying your provably fair system is flawed because your fair system is flawed. And now we have to pay 100ETH for that logic? Haha, I dont think so....100 ETH will be paid for sure if you give me the evidence, like what algorithm you run to prove we manipulate the game. If we can have somebody to improve our fair system. 100ETH is totally worth it.

And, If you can prove our website is not fair, in a more specific way, show your evidence, your algorithm. 100ETH is definitely provided for sure!. We are not saying we are perfect and we welcome talented person to work with us to improve our algorithm.  But we are not giving it to some random player to say you are not fair in one sentence.

I already replied about the "fairness bug" with a long explanation. It's your right to ignore what we said and just keep saying you are not fair without even try our game.

Oh, I missed it! Even TOS are copied. I guess they will no answer for a lot longer on this thread than.

So in the end you guys do not intend to payout 100 eth to players even though they have found out something likw bug or any unfair system? Do you even have this 100 eth on your wallet? By saying that, you guys offer something that you guys do not have and by saying that thing you want to proof that your site is fair? This is really hard to believe on things that you said

come on , do not distract them
they are busy creating shill newbie accounts to say how great their site is 
not only they copy pasted other site's TOS , what is more important  their provably fair system is flawed
think they owe Rhavar 100 eth now

How do you explain this? I see no answer to this accusation.