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Topic: [BCN] Uncovering CryptoNote technology and Bytecoin BCN FAQ - page 4. (Read 13771 times)

sr. member
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2. A megabyte of internal memory is an almost unacceptable size for a modern ASIC pipeline;

Does it really? If we assume that scrypt-ASIC era is not far from now maybe 1mb of internal memory is not too. Questionable ASIC resistance.

If Intel can put 37.5MB of cache on a Xeon,
or more than 1MB on a cheap Celeron,
then 1MB can hardly be called "almost unacceptable".


As far as I know cache is the most expensive part of the CPU. (correct me if I'm wrong) So even 1mb increase of cache is $$$. And ASIC developers are not wealthy enough to cover this expenses.

There is no "most expensive part of the CPU". Cost is dominated by die size and fault rate.
It's true that 37.5MB takes a lot of die space, so that certainly contributes to cost.

Arguing for ASIC-resistance due to perceived high cost of 1MB is silly though.
(gridseed LTC ASICs already have 512MB on board)
The original claim doesn't even mention cost. It should elaborate on what they
mean by ASIC pipeline though, as that has me confused...

Did gridseed announce the cost of this ASIC?

Also, will CPU get bigger (in physical size) in order to have 512MB cache on board?

Sorry for annoying you, I really don't know much about it. Curiousity Smiley
legendary
Activity: 988
Merit: 1108
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2. A megabyte of internal memory is an almost unacceptable size for a modern ASIC pipeline;

Does it really? If we assume that scrypt-ASIC era is not far from now maybe 1mb of internal memory is not too. Questionable ASIC resistance.

If Intel can put 37.5MB of cache on a Xeon,
or more than 1MB on a cheap Celeron,
then 1MB can hardly be called "almost unacceptable".


As far as I know cache is the most expensive part of the CPU. (correct me if I'm wrong) So even 1mb increase of cache is $$$. And ASIC developers are not wealthy enough to cover this expenses.

There is no "most expensive part of the CPU". Cost is dominated by die size and fault rate.
It's true that 37.5MB takes a lot of die space, so that certainly contributes to cost.

Arguing for ASIC-resistance due to perceived high cost of 1MB is silly though.
(gridseed LTC ASICs already have 512MB on board)
The original claim doesn't even mention cost. It should elaborate on what they
mean by ASIC pipeline though, as that has me confused...
sr. member
Activity: 692
Merit: 254
terra-credit.com
Code:
2. A megabyte of internal memory is an almost unacceptable size for a modern ASIC pipeline;

Does it really? If we assume that scrypt-ASIC era is not far from now maybe 1mb of internal memory is not too. Questionable ASIC resistance.

If Intel can put 37.5MB of cache on a Xeon,
or more than 1MB on a cheap Celeron,
then 1MB can hardly be called "almost unacceptable".


As far as I know cache is the most expensive part of the CPU. (correct me if I'm wrong) So even 1mb increase of cache is $$$. And ASIC developers are not wealthy enough to cover this expenses.
legendary
Activity: 988
Merit: 1108
Code:
2. A megabyte of internal memory is an almost unacceptable size for a modern ASIC pipeline;

Does it really? If we assume that scrypt-ASIC era is not far from now maybe 1mb of internal memory is not too. Questionable ASIC resistance.

If Intel can put 37.5MB of cache on a Xeon,
or more than 1MB on a cheap Celeron,
then 1MB can hardly be called "almost unacceptable".
member
Activity: 166
Merit: 15
Still no new puzzles ? Sad
full member
Activity: 125
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2. A megabyte of internal memory is an almost unacceptable size for a modern ASIC pipeline;

Does it really? If we assume that scrypt-ASIC era is not far from now maybe 1mb of internal memory is not too. Questionable ASIC resistance.
sr. member
Activity: 692
Merit: 254
terra-credit.com
Thanks! I was inspecting source code for a while now. It's a little hardcore for a guy who never been involved in programming lol Smiley. But it's okay - logic is virtue Smiley
legendary
Activity: 988
Merit: 1108
Yo folks! Where can I read more about the ring signature? Besides CryptoNote website.

I meant more technical details, you can find a lot of basic info on the CryptoNote.org but not the details.

Or I'm just blind Smiley

Have you tried the White paper and source code?

This is all that the whitepaper has on the CryproNight proof-of-work:

Code:
5.2
 The proposed algorithm
We propose a new memory-bound algorithm for the proof-of-work pricing function. It relies on
random access to a slow memory and emphasizes latency dependence. As opposed to scrypt every
new block (64 bytes in length) depends on all the previous blocks. As a result a hypothetical
“memory-saver” should increase his calculation speed exponentially.
Our algorithm requires about 2 Mb per instance for the following reasons:
1. It fits in the L3 cache (per core) of modern processors, which should become mainstream
in a few years;
2. A megabyte of internal memory is an almost unacceptable size for a modern ASIC pipeline;
3. GPUs may run hundreds of concurrent instances, but they are limited in other ways:
GDDR5 memory is slower than the CPU L3 cache and remarkable for its bandwidth, not
random access speed.
4. Significant expansion of the scratchpad would require an increase in iterations, which in
turn implies an overall time increase. “Heavy” calls in a trust-less p2p network may lead to
serious vulnerabilities, because nodes are obliged to check every new block’s proof-of-work.
If a node spends a considerable amount of time on each hash evaluation, it can be easily
DDoSed by a flood of fake objects with arbitrary work data (nonce values).

In item 4 they admit that this scheme, like scrypt-N, has a major drawback in being
rather slow to verify.

But in the preceding section, reproduced below, they point out a weakness in scrypt
that the new algorithm should have remedied:

Code:
Moreover, the scrypt construction itself allows a linear trade-off between memory size and
CPU speed due to the fact that every block in the scratchpad is derived only from the previous.
For example, you can store every second block and recalculate the others in a lazy way, i.e. only
when it becomes necessary. The pseudo-random indexes are assumed to be uniformly distributed,
hence the expected value of the additional blocks’ recalculations is 12 · N , where N is the number
of iterations. The overall computation time increases less than by half because there are also
time independent (constant time) operations such as preparing the scratchpad and hashing on
every iteration.
...
This in turn implies that a machine with a CPU
2200 times faster than the modern chips can store only 320 bytes of the scratchpad.

If you really want details, you'll have to consult the code:

Code:
#define MEMORY         (1 << 21) /* 2 MiB */
#define ITER           (1 << 20)
#define AES_BLOCK_SIZE  16
#define AES_KEY_SIZE    32 /*16*/
#define INIT_SIZE_BLK   8
#define INIT_SIZE_BYTE (INIT_SIZE_BLK * AES_BLOCK_SIZE)

...

void cn_slow_hash(const void *data, size_t length, char *hash) {
  uint8_t long_state[MEMORY];
  union cn_slow_hash_state state;
  uint8_t text[INIT_SIZE_BYTE];
  uint8_t a[AES_BLOCK_SIZE];
  uint8_t b[AES_BLOCK_SIZE];
  uint8_t c[AES_BLOCK_SIZE];
  uint8_t d[AES_BLOCK_SIZE];
  size_t i, j;
  uint8_t aes_key[AES_KEY_SIZE];
  OAES_CTX* aes_ctx;

  hash_process(&state.hs, data, length);
  memcpy(text, state.init, INIT_SIZE_BYTE);
  memcpy(aes_key, state.hs.b, AES_KEY_SIZE);
  aes_ctx = oaes_alloc();
  for (i = 0; i < MEMORY / INIT_SIZE_BYTE; i++) {
    for (j = 0; j < INIT_SIZE_BLK; j++) {
      oaes_key_import_data(aes_ctx, aes_key, AES_KEY_SIZE);
      oaes_pseudo_encrypt_ecb(aes_ctx, &text[AES_BLOCK_SIZE * j]);
      /*memcpy(aes_key, &text[AES_BLOCK_SIZE * j], AES_KEY_SIZE);*/
      memcpy(aes_key, state.hs.b, AES_KEY_SIZE);
    }
    memcpy(&long_state[i * INIT_SIZE_BYTE], text, INIT_SIZE_BYTE);
  }

  for (i = 0; i < 16; i++) {
    a[i] = state.k[     i] ^ state.k[32 + i];
    b[i] = state.k[16 + i] ^ state.k[48 + i];
  }

  for (i = 0; i < ITER / 2; i++) {
    /* Dependency chain: address -> read value ------+
     * written value <-+ hard function (AES or MUL) <+
     * next address  <-+
     */
    /* Iteration 1 */
    j = e2i(a, MEMORY / AES_BLOCK_SIZE);
    copy_block(c, &long_state[j * AES_BLOCK_SIZE]);
    oaes_encryption_round(a, c);
    xor_blocks(b, c);
    swap_blocks(b, c);
    copy_block(&long_state[j * AES_BLOCK_SIZE], c);
    assert(j == e2i(a, MEMORY / AES_BLOCK_SIZE));
    swap_blocks(a, b);
    /* Iteration 2 */
    j = e2i(a, MEMORY / AES_BLOCK_SIZE);
    copy_block(c, &long_state[j * AES_BLOCK_SIZE]);
    mul(a, c, d);
    sum_half_blocks(b, d);
    swap_blocks(b, c);
    xor_blocks(b, c);
    copy_block(&long_state[j * AES_BLOCK_SIZE], c);
    assert(j == e2i(a, MEMORY / AES_BLOCK_SIZE));
    swap_blocks(a, b);
  }

  memcpy(text, state.init, INIT_SIZE_BYTE);
  for (i = 0; i < MEMORY / INIT_SIZE_BYTE; i++) {
    for (j = 0; j < INIT_SIZE_BLK; j++) {
      /*oaes_key_import_data(aes_ctx, &long_state[i * INIT_SIZE_BYTE + j * AES_BLOCK_SIZE], AES_KEY_SIZE);*/
      oaes_key_import_data(aes_ctx, &state.hs.b[32], AES_KEY_SIZE);
      xor_blocks(&text[j * AES_BLOCK_SIZE], &long_state[i * INIT_SIZE_BYTE + j * AES_BLOCK_SIZE]);
      oaes_pseudo_encrypt_ecb(aes_ctx, &text[j * AES_BLOCK_SIZE]);
    }
  }
  memcpy(state.init, text, INIT_SIZE_BYTE);
  hash_permutation(&state.hs);
  /*memcpy(hash, &state, 32);*/
  extra_hashes[state.hs.b[0] & 3](&state, 200, hash);
  oaes_free(&aes_ctx);
}

full member
Activity: 139
Merit: 100
yo ppl!

All this secrecy is giving me a headache seriously... All deepweb projects are so subtle ?

The only thing I heard about the deepweb (from my newbie-Bitcoin shore Smiley) is Silkroad. And it wasn't secret and subtle like, at all.

not a long time ago there was a thread on bitcointalk about the deepweb and it's wiki, you can try to find it.

you'll be amazed what you can find there Wink
member
Activity: 98
Merit: 10
yo ppl!

All this secrecy is giving me a headache seriously... All deepweb projects are so subtle ?

The only thing I heard about the deepweb (from my newbie-Bitcoin shore Smiley) is Silkroad. And it wasn't secret and subtle like, at all.
member
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Maybe you should add to the FAQ info about the puzzles they are making. Or at least a history of puzzles like "music > hashes" etc.
member
Activity: 138
Merit: 10
Secret deep web cryptocurrency that has a formal .org webiste?

Color me suspicious. Roll Eyes

In 2009 a lot of people who were suspicious to Bitcoin.

Everything which is revolutionary new to this world faced with people who don't trust innovations. Of course, you'd better to be keep your wits about everything in web world, but if you read more about bytecoin you'd have a deja vu. Somebody is telling Satoshi is one of the creators. I can't tell anything about Satoshi's involvement but  I know is that bytecoin is a HUGE step in crypto development.



In 2009 almost nobody knew about Bitcoin. And who knew were suspicious because it was something that world have never seen.

Now when people acknowledged cryptos being suspicious about something that does not fit in the current "methodology of introducing new altcoin" is normal. It is to me at least.

I really dig Bytecoin and of course it's a huge step in cryptos but still, people have their right to be suspicious. Smiley 
member
Activity: 314
Merit: 10
Secret deep web cryptocurrency that has a formal .org webiste?

Color me suspicious. Roll Eyes

In 2009 a lot of people who were suspicious to Bitcoin.

Everything which is revolutionary new to this world faced with people who don't trust innovations. Of course, you'd better to be keep your wits about everything in web world, but if you read more about bytecoin you'd have a deja vu. Somebody is telling Satoshi is one of the creators. I can't tell anything about Satoshi's involvement but  I know is that bytecoin is a HUGE step in crypto development.

full member
Activity: 139
Merit: 100
Secret deep web cryptocurrency that has a formal .org webiste?

Color me suspicious. Roll Eyes

well it looks like they were trying to go public. who knows. maybe it's a leaky leak.
legendary
Activity: 980
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Secret deep web cryptocurrency that has a formal .org webiste?

Color me suspicious. Roll Eyes
sr. member
Activity: 692
Merit: 254
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Yo folks! Where can I read more about the ring signature? Besides CryptoNote website.

I meant more technical details, you can find a lot of basic info on the CryptoNote.org but not the details.

Or I'm just blind Smiley

Have you tried the White paper and source code?

Source code is too hardcore for me... and I completely forgot about the Whitepaper. Going to look into it now.


*rolleyes emoticon from skype*
legendary
Activity: 2968
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sr. member
Activity: 692
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Yo folks! Where can I read more about the ring signature? Besides CryptoNote website.

I meant more technical details, you can find a lot of basic info on the CryptoNote.org but not the details.

Or I'm just blind Smiley
full member
Activity: 139
Merit: 100
... ASIC-resistant part of the "CryptoNight" is what bothers me the most Smiley

What bothers you about it?
it's existence Smiley afaik there is no proof that this technology is ASIC-resistant.
hero member
Activity: 795
Merit: 514
... ASIC-resistant part of the "CryptoNight" is what bothers me the most Smiley

What bothers you about it?
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