Topic: Before a disgruntled customer says anything...Check Now! (Read 7894 times)

You make some fair points but think you are missing the forest for the trees.

Regardless, I am tired of the discussion at this point and it was clear from the first few days he wasn't going to do anything about this, just wanted this to serve as a warning to others more than anything.

Anyway folks, happy to continue the discussion offline if anyone has questions/etc.

I've been glancing over this thread with a vague amount of interest because I'm currently looking learning to make Jewellery and I'm probably going to be using sterling silver, while I'm not necessarily siding with Johnniewalker this frankly is beginning to look more and more like blackmail, AfricanHunter, why make such a massive deal about this?

. You bought an ingot from someone inexperienced who clearly didn't know very much about metals and was experimenting to make some cash

. You bought with Bitcoins, anonymously and essentially on the black market in legal terms currently and you're questioning the product quality after you bought it? It's as if you bought a house without properly surveying it first and are trying to place blame on the person you bought it from

. You magically have no receipt for the assay on the silver he sold to you, you keep saying it didn't, claiming you're being civil at the same time when anyone civil or for that matter intelligent would have brought the receipt along, when I make large or expensive purchases I always keep the receipt in case of situations like this

. If this were a court room and Bitcoins were entirely legal and not in a grey area like they are now I suspect a judge would have just laughed at you both because neither of you made any proper legal preparations to make your case like anyone else would

So let this be a lesson to you, if you deal in physical goods that have a potential for loss, both sides should keep legal records of everything so it doesn't turn into a nonsensical competition of who can rant at each other the longest, you don't buy something from a store and go to complain about the product without proof of purchase in real life do you?

I also found this which you all might find interesting: http://www.silverstall.com/testing-silver.html

Sorry, been away on vacation.

1. Anyone with half a brain can see what happened here which is why you have nobody on your side (for more than 5 minutes) with any credibility.

2. Saying;


Doesn't work when they didn't even assay .925 on average.

3. I wanted marked or recognizable metals because your smelting cannot be trusted. Can anyone blame me? And who in their right mind would send you back bullion so you could resmelt it when you somehow managed to mix sterling and .99 shot then were left with a product which was less pure than sterling... Marked at .99 and in standard ounces no less you friggin chucklehead.

4. I have offered multiple ways for you to have proof and even come out way on top if I am full of shiz; all of which you have ignored or declined.

5. You have made absolutely zero efforts to go "above and beyond". What actions would you say demonstrate this after I contacted you with the assay results. In contrast, I feel I have been eminently reasonable with you. Remember who started this thread?

6. Hiding behind "Oh woe is me, if only I had the messages we sent back and forth" doesn't work when I have said multiple times that I did have all our correspondence but wouldn't post them without your consent as they were done off the public forum. Trust me, they don't do anything positive for your position.

7. Send me that silver quarter you promised. I have written the rest off as a loss, although I would wager your loss is far larger than mine when you consider the damage done to your rep.

Regards.

AH

Seriously?  You could have simply put him on ignore.

Yes, I am sure all transactions on this site are monitored, and thus subject to all trade rules and regulations of the United States.
I'm fucking sick of this. This is literally the last post I leave.
The buyer knew these were the first ingots I ever made. In order to ensure this EXACT thing didn't happen, I sent along a half-dollar which I noted would cover the coins even if they all turned out to be of .925 purity. I even asked the buyer to tell me the results of the assay. God I wish a record of sent messages was kept on here.
I made it right from the beginning, sending the coin (why would I have sent the half-dollar if I was confident the bars were .99?)
Upon the buyer saying he wanted to "return" the bars I offered 1) to send him a silver quarter since apparently melting .925 silver yields .80 silver. I'm STILL waiting to see the results of that assay. And I 2) offered to remelt all of the bars, let him keep the half dollar and quarter, and make him a single .925 ingot. He rejected all of these. He said he wanted MARKED silver or gold even. Therefore his argue of "Its about purity, not silver content" is bullshit.
I have yet to see anything even proving the buyer got the metal assayed. I have seen no results and not even a receipt!
The buyer thought he found a great deal on silver ingots from a NOVICE (he was well-aware these were the first ingots I ever casted) silversmith and that he could turn around and sell/trade them. Hand-poured ingots are a long-term investment, however.
So-considering all of my attempts to go above and beyond and above all a LACK OF ANY PROOF on his part, I will not refund this buyer in any way. Mods have agreed to block him from my future posts.
I will continue to offer things for sale on this site and look forward to many pleasant transactions with repeat and new customers.

You are probably right as I A.) don't pay attention to laws pertaining to shit like this, and B.) don't expect anyone to enforce such laws. Therefore, I would charge it to the game and move on to my next business venture as I have many times in the past. You see it's not about making everything right because it would just probably cost more in the end. I think the buyer made out good in the end because he is literally out probably less than $10 and he has unfortunately (for him) but fortunately (for anyone that reads this thread) discovered what can happen with this particular seller. I've lost hundreds before with nothing to show for it and I just had to learn my lesson...and charge it to the game. If the buyer can figure out a way to sell the stuff he doesn't want then he should just do it because I can assure you he ain't gettin' no refund.

I don't give a fuck if it's .80 or not.  The important thing is that it's nowhere near .99 (which was not physically possible either)

I don't know the guy from a wet fart stain.

It doesn't usually.  I've met young guys like you.  Can't be told what to do, and stubborn until the end. super-ego!  I bet you're a fairly independent for your age? Keen to move out of home if you haven't done so already?  I know, I was a lot like you when I was younger.

Well give the guy a fucking refund already.  You have any idea how bad this whole thing makes you look right now? If you keep pissing people off you're going to lose any regular customers you had. The reason I've jumped into this because I hate it when people mis-lead or lie (whether intended or not)

No 1 rule when working in a sales, do YOUR BEST to make a happy transaction.  When people see that, they will flock to your product! Why do you think those Chinese sellers on eBay beg for 5 star rating? It's so people see that 99.7% and buy 20 of everything!

I'm not trying to harass you or ha-rang you here.  I just want you to do that right thing.

The problem with this logic is that the seller misrepresented the content of the bars unknowingly or otherwise, and refusing a refund is tantamount to fraud. He may not have been aware what he produced, but the fact is he stamped the purity and is now responsible regardless of his return policy.

Not a great idea to experience "buyer's remorse" after buying from a seller with a "no refunds" policy.
In my neck of the woods we have a phrase that we say when we must accept the loss and move on after situations similar to what happened here...
Charge it to the game

By law in the US he is required to be within a margin of error of his marked quality and content. He is not within those margins of error. Not accepting a return puts him in criminal liability and he would serve himself best by choking this up as a learning experience and offering a full refund.

the way i read it is the smelter guy thought he could get away with it because he THOUGHT getting the metla tested would cost more then half the metals value, so he thought they would never get tested.

but they did.

then he sent a coin to hush the customer up thinking that is it..

no..

the 4 'bricks' are marked as .99 but are not .99 which makes them valueless.. no one will buy them off of him.

i as an outside party feel that the guy that smelted the metals should accept the bricks and the coin back and give a full refund.

then remelt the bricks and stamp them with a more accurate purity value.

the simple matter of fact is
you promised the guy 4oz of silver of .99 purity and he ended up with 3.6Toz of impure quality..
10% less weight and an unknown amount of less quality = alot of difference

im glad i live in the UK as i have a law called distance selling act that i can use. it doesnt matter what payment method was made or whom to or even the product involved. they still have to allow a returns policy.

lesson to be learnt. if they dont have a returns policy, dont use them

The basis for your argument the entire time has been that you don't care about silver content, but rather purity. You purchased .99 silver from literally someone brand new to melting silver-if you've bought and sold bullion for years as you claim, you should have doubted the purity of the ingots. However you never asked me how I made them AT ALL. So you were in the market for .99 silver, saw my n00b listing and bought it to profit from. BUT soon you realized it was harder to trade than minted silver.
So you wrote this on December 20:
"[after a proposition: "Sorry but no. Needs to be a mint bar/round or 90% pre-64 us coins. Gold works too"
African Hunter did not care about Silver in .99 form-he just wanted silver that he could turn around and easily sell.
Summary: You knew little to nothing about silver, besides the fact my listing was a great deal. You got your ingots and were happy with them for a while. Then you supposedly got them assayed and they were under .99 (why don't you upload a copy of that receipt, by the way?). Also, you realized hand-poured silver is much harder to sell than silver in any sort of minted form.
There it is everyone. African Hunter is everything I have claimed him to be. People who have been on my side-thank you. Others, first of all, are a bit foolish in that "African Hunter" never presented any real evidence. But you have just been straight up mean for no reason. Yeah its the internet and thats how shit goes, but when it tarnishes an important reputation it becomes harmful. I loved this forum initially. And, I've done business with plenty of good people. I don't know if its for fun or what, but I don't know what the hate is about.

Actually its not physically possible he got .80 silver from me. Did you see the assay results? Why don't you share them? You guys have been pals since the beginning of this thread. I have no idea what my age has to do with anything. Its pretty simple. I offer something for sale, you buy it or you don't. If its not as described, I make it right-as I did with your buddy.

I'm pretty sure the guy paid for .99 silver And received .80 silver. 2 completely different products. He's understanderbly upset.

After viewing this pathetic attempt at customer service ill NEVER purchase ANYTHING from you.

I hate dealing with know it all uppity 18yo kids, and so do most people.

You got what you paid for and more. What you bought and paid for was Silver. You were WELL aware that these were the first ingots I had ever made (maybe a newbie with a mapp torch isn't as consistent as the US mint?). I gave you more silver than you paid for, and offered even more. I highly doubt you have been buying and selling bullion for years-HIGHLY doubt. And cool about your watch, although its highly relevant, I don't think its worth more than my car.
I have offered fake/replica/counterfeit, whatever you want to call them, goods on here. Every single one I have marketed and put in the subject line "Fake/Replica/Counterfeit/etc.". I discovered the cigars I was selling were fake when a user pointed it out, and I promptly changed the post. Everything I have done on here is 100% honest and I can look myself in the mirror and say that.
One last question for thought: If you have been buying and selling bullion for years, why was it that you bought my first ingots wherein I PROMINENTLY advertised that I was a n00b and expected them to be .99 pure? Even I see-after a matter of months-that purity that high can only be achieved by a mint.
One more thing for thought. Does this look interesting?
We can work this out, I am not going to "bash" you on the forums at this point unless we cant come to an agreement. If you are unwilling to make good I will just make a thread telling my side of it.
Those words were typed by you. Instead, you put some BS in your signature about how I don't do honest business and are the first one to comment on my posts, harassing me and leaving rude comments.
We are done. Mods have agreed to block you from my posts in the future.

Make one little mistake and the grammar nazis come out

I believe it was truthful because it was done by a shop that has been there for years, He did it with one of those XRF guns that cost 30k while I watched the screen, he "gunned" about 10 other pieces of bullion which all came out correct, I walked in "considering" selling him about $2500 in bullion, and not sure what you mean by "full assay". This was done by a shop whose entire business is buying/selling bullion in the middle of downtown San Diego so not sure what you mean it wasn't "professional". Does me paying for it make it professional? What reason could he have for purposely assaying it under (when he told me from the start he didnt buy self bars and I had to ask him to assay them on the side since they wouldnt be part of the deal. It's not like he asked to buy them at any point).




Do you think I wanted all this headache over what should have been 3.5oz's of silver? Do I strike you as a shakedown artist with contacts in the business? I have done about 5k in business on this forum in past couple months (including a krugerrand which new member seller sent me before getting paid) surely there were better opportunities to scam someone than this?

If you dont trust the above, how do you reconcile that with offering to go to a shop of his choosing and having it redone; even offering a bet of 4X-ish what I paid if I was wrong?

Sure, anything is possible but which is more believable? That I colluded with others to try and get the silver weight I was promised or JW made mistakes on his first bars. He has made multiple "public" mistakes on the forum beyond this, why is that so hard to believe?


Honestly havent done the math but I believe it is immaterial regardless, he sold me .99 bars and that is what he should have delivered. If they were a % or two off, this discussion would be very different. Average purity below scrap sterling is an issue for me when he said he melted only sterling and added 1oz of .999 shot. Math doesnt work unless he got taken on the sterling, shot or both. Why should I have to take the hit for his lack of judgement.

In the end I believe he either owes me a refund or the weight in silver he promised (in a recognizable format, including the barber in the total). I dont see how I am trying to get one over on him with that offer. I would even negotiate that figure (you know, like normal people do when making a deal) but he has taken the stance that I am wrong and has been unwilling to discuss the matter.


Appreciate your opinion. In my view he included the Barber to get the deal done, not as compensation. I wouldnt have bought the bars for what I paid without it. Besides, I have offered to include the Barber as silver weight in a trade back.


Thanks.


I am not going to go and hassle the shop and spend their time on this (which will either cost me money or cost me a favor with the shop) unless I have some sort of promise from JW it would make a difference as I think even with them he would continue to tell me "NO YOU"!


He wont because he is only interested in making a quick buck off bitcoin. He will be gone soon enough I predict.

And in closing because it bears repeating, I leave you with this quote from JW;

He still refuses to live up to his word. JohnnieWalker, you are a dishonest trader and I hope people stay away from your "deals" of fake coins, fake Cohibas and fake/low silver.

No problem.


First, "I did not". Not "I have did not". Secondly, how can you be so sure that the assay was truthful if it was not professional? I highly doubt you got the full assay service for free.


While yes, it was a dick move for him to make, he is right about it possibly just being "your buddy".


Do you agree with this statement? Or do you believe he owes more? You don't make it very clear.


In my honest opinion, the barber should cover a bit more than a percent or two. Even if you do not view it as a slight mistake, I think a barber half was decent compensation.


I can understand this issue from this point of perspective.


I agree with this statement.


The main reason I called you a liar is because you have no docs. If you manage to return with the assay docs, the case will probably be resolved much quicker.


I agree with this too. JW should answer to this.

Thanks for your well thought out opinion.

I have did not pay for the assay so was just a jewelry store assaying them, In hindsight I should have asked for a printout but I foolishly thought JohnnieWalker would make it right(and was a bit shocked). Keep in mind I had offered to go to the assay place with him before it got done (he declined), I offered to go and have it done again at a shop of his choosing (he declined), I even offered a 25btc bet they would not test right at a shop he chooses (he declined).

My proof was telling him the shop I went to and asking him to call to verify what happened (he declined and said it was probably my buddy). Honestly, if he promised to honor things I would go through the hassle of going back and asking for a printout (the guy was nice and would probably do it for me) but that hasnt been JW's issue. He has acknowledged I am under by "$5 of silver" but has no interest in making it right.

I have not disregarded it the Barber sent. It was a part of the deal in case he made a "slight mistake. I view a slight mistake as a percent or two, not 12%. Also based on what he said went in the melt, it is impossible to have the purity as it tested. Please see my Car Salesman analogy on page 2 for a simple explanation.

I don't know, ask JW. Either his sterling was fake/low, his shot was low or both.

Please see the screencap of the original thread. He didnt sell this as "Silver bars or around .925, maybe more maybe less. This is my first shot so no guarantees." He sold(and marked) these as .99. Hence the issue.

Honestly on reflection and based on his history (buying "Cohibas" which he thought were real in tj) I dont think JW intentionally ripped me off. I think he bought some shady scrap and has no customer service/business skills.

But come on dude, I am the liar? I have offered multiple ways to either make this right or definitively prove me a scammer(and take home 25btc additional in the process). He hasn't taken any of them. If you really read through this thread and see me as the guilty party I doubt your judgement (or you are a shill for JW). I have offered multiple ways through this, he has offered none (well one which doesn't address the issue at hand).

Tell you what JW, If I go and get an assay printout and video the process will you finally do what is right(either refund or 1:1 trade for silver weight)?

Totally on johnniewalker's side here...it seems to me like he was making his first (attempt) at a .999 silver bar, and because it was his first try he sent a silver coin in case it was not .999. Now I only see 1 possible way to explain this; and that is that the silver shot was not .999. But based on what I see, I think AfricanHunter is a liar.

• Why has he not provided docs or proof of the assay?
• Why has he disregarded the silver coin he was sent?
• How the fuck does a .925 bar+.99 shot refine to LESS than .925? Am I missing something? Either AfricanHunter is lying or the shot was less than .925.
• And since when did people lose their ability to read a thread and pick out the obvious lies?

Based on what i've seen today on this thread, I think people have never been able to pick out obvious lies from the truth. Maybe that explains how people always fall for scams in the bitcoin community...

Au contraire, my friend. JW Blue is a fine, smooth, great tasting blend. and for $270CAD/750ml bottle, it oughta be.