Best way to mix bitcoins | Bitcointalksearch.org

AdolfinWolf

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Quote from: 1Referee on December 27, 2019, 09:17:52 AM

Exchanges are honeypots

I’m afraid this is also true for a lot of mixers, although mostly due to negligence (see bestmixer), where all transaction records were recovered. In that case, you were probably better off not using any mixing tools.
So ideally, you should only use “provably-based privacy” (where privacy can be proven, and isn’t trusted to be the case.)

Too bad that that still isn’t the case with most mixers, and are we still relying on the trustworthiness of already existing mixers (Chipmixer, etc)

1Referee

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Quote from: assa1979 on December 26, 2019, 06:34:46 AM

I've had no idea why I should use mixers and what it does with my security anyway.
Now I feel like I've got to find and use one for sure.

I see that with a lot of people. Why should I use a mixer? I have not had a problem using an exchange to "mix" coins.

People fail to understand that the records exchanges store are stored on their servers for ever. Just because you haven't had a problem using exchanges to "mix" coins, that doesn't mean you won't be facing any problems a year later, or perhaps even longer. Exchanges are honeypots and people have provided them all their personal information, so how easy do you want a government to find you. Cheesy

I'm glad you woke up.

squatter

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STOP SNITCHIN'

Quote from: LeGaulois on December 26, 2019, 02:20:06 PM

I don't know anything with casinos but I suppose the wallets created there works the same as the web wallets. It won't help you to mix bitcoins properly.
It's one of the crappiest ways to do this.

A couple years ago, I tried to "mix" some bitcoins using 777Coin. They literally sent the output I deposited right back to me, minus a withdrawal fee. Fail!

In all honesty, some of the more primitive mixers aren't that much better. Anyone looking to mix their bitcoins effectively should research how any given mixer works and see how easy it is to analyze outputs received from them. Not all mixers are created equally!

LeGaulois

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Quote from: nydiacaskey01 on December 25, 2019, 08:00:01 PM

If you wan't to mix your coins then just go with a legit mixer out there and don't settle for an online casino or a BTC wallet to mix your coins for you. If you think you are getting robbed because of the fees in mixing coins, thats because they are doing what they are suppose to do, mix your coins unlike BTC wallets that may require you to send documents when you set up an account.

I don't know anything with casinos but I suppose the wallets created there works the same as the web wallets. It won't help you to mix bitcoins properly.
It's one of the crappiest ways to do this.
Let's say you're using coinbase to mix your coins, it can be easy to find that your address is related to coinbase. At this point, you're fucked. Authorities will just need to contact coinbase to get any information about you (IP, etc) With your IP it takes actually less than 5 minutes to get your address.

assa1979

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Quote from: 1Referee on December 24, 2019, 05:39:45 PM

Quote from: keyscore44 on December 23, 2019, 01:02:20 PM

Of course there is no Coinbase mixer. Yes, I just use their wallets for mixing. I don't play at online casinos. My coins come from normal, legal sources - mainly from exchanges. I have passed KYC long time ago and never had problems with Coinbase.
I don't understand why mixer would be more secure than Coinbase?

I wouldn't call it mixing since you withdraw tainted coins with your info atteched to them.

I wouldn't want any exchange to know more about me than I allow them to know. Whenever I buy coins from an exchange for long term holding purposes I run them through a mixer, simply because I don't want to lead them to my cold wallet stash, because if they know, what ensures me that a government can't get access to that information? Better safe than sorry.

In the end, it all comes down to who you want to protect yourself against. If you get coins from your neighbor but don't want him to know what you end up doing with them, all he will be able to know is that you sent the coins to Coinbase. I personally prefer that no entity but the mixer to knows (and that they delete logs as they promise) what the destination address(es) is/are.

That makes a great point, thank you.
I've had no idea why I should use mixers and what it does with my security anyway.
Now I feel like I've got to find and use one for sure.

nydiacaskey01

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If you wan't to mix your coins then just go with a legit mixer out there and don't settle for an online casino or a BTC wallet to mix your coins for you. If you think you are getting robbed because of the fees in mixing coins, thats because they are doing what they are suppose to do, mix your coins unlike BTC wallets that may require you to send documents when you set up an account.

1Referee

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Quote from: keyscore44 on December 23, 2019, 01:02:20 PM

Of course there is no Coinbase mixer. Yes, I just use their wallets for mixing. I don't play at online casinos. My coins come from normal, legal sources - mainly from exchanges. I have passed KYC long time ago and never had problems with Coinbase.
I don't understand why mixer would be more secure than Coinbase?

I wouldn't call it mixing since you withdraw tainted coins with your info atteched to them.

I wouldn't want any exchange to know more about me than I allow them to know. Whenever I buy coins from an exchange for long term holding purposes I run them through a mixer, simply because I don't want to lead them to my cold wallet stash, because if they know, what ensures me that a government can't get access to that information? Better safe than sorry.

In the end, it all comes down to who you want to protect yourself against. If you get coins from your neighbor but don't want him to know what you end up doing with them, all he will be able to know is that you sent the coins to Coinbase. I personally prefer that no entity but the mixer to knows (and that they delete logs as they promise) what the destination address(es) is/are.

figmentofmyass

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Quote from: keyscore44 on December 23, 2019, 01:02:20 PM

Of course there is no Coinbase mixer. Yes, I just use their wallets for mixing. I don't play at online casinos. My coins come from normal, legal sources - mainly from exchanges. I have passed KYC long time ago and never had problems with Coinbase.
I don't understand why mixer would be more secure than Coinbase?

it's not that a mixer is more secure than coinbase. it's about your privacy. coinbase employs blockchain analysis on all your deposits and withdrawals, maintaining a cumulative record of all your blockchain activity in case regulators ever ask for it. then they mandate KYC so everything is positively linked to your identity.

maybe you're okay with that because your coins come from "normal, legal sources". personally, i would prefer that coinbase knows as little as possible about me or my bitcoin stash.

dunfida

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Quote from: keyscore44 on December 23, 2019, 01:02:20 PM

Quote from: 1Referee on December 21, 2019, 07:27:26 AM

Quote from: imstillthebest on December 21, 2019, 03:12:35 AM

he said he use coinbase to mix his coins and not as a wallet ( if what i read is correct ) but i didnt know that there are also a mixer called coinbase because what i thought is coinbase is a wallet and now also available as an exchange .

There is no mixer called Coinbase. Coinbase is an exchange. What some people tend to do (which is extremely stupid) is that they send coins to an exchange or online casino, then withdraw their coins because they know they get different coins back. Usually that's done either because they trust exchanges and online casinos more, and it's cheaper.

I think that's also one of the main reasons Coinbase stopped allowing people to use their 'wallet' functionality without KYC. People were actively abusing that bit of freedom.

Of course there is no Coinbase mixer. Yes, I just use their wallets for mixing. I don't play at online casinos. My coins come from normal, legal sources - mainly from exchanges. I have passed KYC long time ago and never had problems with Coinbase.
I don't understand why mixer would be more secure than Coinbase?

It might sound stupid but i do have done this stuff.As long you dont deal with big amounts to mixed up then theres no wrong on using any other service but well
it do really always accompanied with risk of those funds to be locked up once your account tend to be reviewed.Unless if we do just simply make use of tumblers or mixers then
you would get rid of these possible scenarios.

keyscore44

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Quote from: 1Referee on December 21, 2019, 07:27:26 AM

Quote from: imstillthebest on December 21, 2019, 03:12:35 AM

he said he use coinbase to mix his coins and not as a wallet ( if what i read is correct ) but i didnt know that there are also a mixer called coinbase because what i thought is coinbase is a wallet and now also available as an exchange .

There is no mixer called Coinbase. Coinbase is an exchange. What some people tend to do (which is extremely stupid) is that they send coins to an exchange or online casino, then withdraw their coins because they know they get different coins back. Usually that's done either because they trust exchanges and online casinos more, and it's cheaper.

I think that's also one of the main reasons Coinbase stopped allowing people to use their 'wallet' functionality without KYC. People were actively abusing that bit of freedom.

Of course there is no Coinbase mixer. Yes, I just use their wallets for mixing. I don't play at online casinos. My coins come from normal, legal sources - mainly from exchanges. I have passed KYC long time ago and never had problems with Coinbase.
I don't understand why mixer would be more secure than Coinbase?

Wind_FURY

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What about the Lightning Network. I believe that could be a good alternative for trust-minimized mixing.

1Referee

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Quote from: imstillthebest on December 21, 2019, 03:12:35 AM

he said he use coinbase to mix his coins and not as a wallet ( if what i read is correct ) but i didnt know that there are also a mixer called coinbase because what i thought is coinbase is a wallet and now also available as an exchange .

There is no mixer called Coinbase. Coinbase is an exchange. What some people tend to do (which is extremely stupid) is that they send coins to an exchange or online casino, then withdraw their coins because they know they get different coins back. Usually that's done either because they trust exchanges and online casinos more, and it's cheaper.

I think that's also one of the main reasons Coinbase stopped allowing people to use their 'wallet' functionality without KYC. People were actively abusing that bit of freedom.

imstillthebest

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Quote from: squatter on December 20, 2019, 03:00:29 PM

Quote from: keyscore44 on December 20, 2019, 09:58:29 AM

I see that everyone is talking about officially known mixers on the market, but I do not know if anyone has already mentioned a fairly simple way .. I just use Coinbase to mix my coins.
I don't know what level of effectiveness it is and how difficult it would be to find the source of the coins, but so far I'm fine with this.

If your bitcoins are from a questionable source, Coinbase is the last place you want to send them. They have mandatory KYC, and they also work with multiple blockchain analysis companies and law enforcement.

People usually mix bitcoins before sending to Coinbase to prevent them from flagging deposits as suspicious or breaching terms. For example, Coinbase may close your account if you deposit from a gambling site.

he said he use coinbase to mix his coins and not as a wallet ( if what i read is correct ) but i didnt know that there are also a mixer called coinbase because what i thought is coinbase is a wallet and now also available as an exchange .

coinbase was also strict like what you said so i dont think that they will come up with such mixing service . that is true that some users complain about sending crypto to coinbase because it is been questioned most of the times . other wallets are also strict like this and wont accpet funds that mainly came from a gambling site .

squatter

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STOP SNITCHIN'

Quote from: keyscore44 on December 20, 2019, 09:58:29 AM

I see that everyone is talking about officially known mixers on the market, but I do not know if anyone has already mentioned a fairly simple way .. I just use Coinbase to mix my coins.
I don't know what level of effectiveness it is and how difficult it would be to find the source of the coins, but so far I'm fine with this.

If your bitcoins are from a questionable source, Coinbase is the last place you want to send them. They have mandatory KYC, and they also work with multiple blockchain analysis companies and law enforcement.

People usually mix bitcoins before sending to Coinbase to prevent them from flagging deposits as suspicious or breaching terms. For example, Coinbase may close your account if you deposit from a gambling site.

keyscore44

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I see that everyone is talking about officially known mixers on the market, but I do not know if anyone has already mentioned a fairly simple way .. I just use Coinbase to mix my coins.
I don't know what level of effectiveness it is and how difficult it would be to find the source of the coins, but so far I'm fine with this.

Wind_FURY

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Quote from: figmentofmyass on December 20, 2019, 03:44:46 AM

Quote from: Wind_FURY on December 20, 2019, 03:07:17 AM

Quote from: figmentofmyass on December 20, 2019, 02:52:20 AM

wasabi wallet's obviousness has bitten at least one user. his withdrawals from binance singapore were suspended pending a KYC questionnaire after analysis revealed withdrawals to wasabi from his account. https://twitter.com/bittlecat/status/1207621591820951552

CZ responded and seems to be implying this is specific to the singapore operation. https://twitter.com/cz_binance/status/1207825158783696896

Quote

Binance SG operates under the requirements set forth by MAS and our MAS regulated partner, Xfers. Hence there are AML CFT controls set in place.

Not something for us to decide.

either way, i would use something better than wasabi wallet to mix your coins. Wink

If the "something better" requires third party trust, I would suggest, be fair and inform newbies that they have a choice with a trust-minimized option. The choice is theirs.

i already did that upthread.

sadly, just as with the DEX vs CEX question, the decentralized options are severely lacking. the above case is a real world example of why we need to be smarter about decentralized tumbling. wasabi needs to up their game and make their coinjoins less obvious. we need randomized or user-set ranges for anonymity sets, otherwise this shit will keep happening.

I accept that. But without the community helping test open source projects out, or report bugs/issues, they won't go anywhere.

figmentofmyass

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Quote from: Wind_FURY on December 20, 2019, 03:07:17 AM

Quote from: figmentofmyass on December 20, 2019, 02:52:20 AM

wasabi wallet's obviousness has bitten at least one user. his withdrawals from binance singapore were suspended pending a KYC questionnaire after analysis revealed withdrawals to wasabi from his account. https://twitter.com/bittlecat/status/1207621591820951552

CZ responded and seems to be implying this is specific to the singapore operation. https://twitter.com/cz_binance/status/1207825158783696896

Quote

Binance SG operates under the requirements set forth by MAS and our MAS regulated partner, Xfers. Hence there are AML CFT controls set in place.

Not something for us to decide.

either way, i would use something better than wasabi wallet to mix your coins. Wink

If the "something better" requires third party trust, I would suggest, be fair and inform newbies that they have a choice with a trust-minimized option. The choice is theirs.

i already did that upthread.

sadly, just as with the DEX vs CEX question, the decentralized options are severely lacking. the above case is a real world example of why we need to be smarter about decentralized tumbling. wasabi needs to up their game and make their coinjoins less obvious. we need randomized or user-set ranges for anonymity sets, otherwise this shit will keep happening.

Wind_FURY

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Quote from: figmentofmyass on December 20, 2019, 02:52:20 AM

Quote from: figmentofmyass on December 13, 2019, 06:05:41 PM

one drawback of wasabi wallet is that it's blatantly obvious you are using a coinjoin because it enforces a 100-anonymity set. another is the ~0.1BTC minimum. it's definitely cheaper than swapping to monero though.

wasabi wallet's obviousness has bitten at least one user. his withdrawals from binance singapore were suspended pending a KYC questionnaire after analysis revealed withdrawals to wasabi from his account. https://twitter.com/bittlecat/status/1207621591820951552

CZ responded and seems to be implying this is specific to the singapore operation. https://twitter.com/cz_binance/status/1207825158783696896

Quote

Binance SG operates under the requirements set forth by MAS and our MAS regulated partner, Xfers. Hence there are AML CFT controls set in place.

Not something for us to decide.

either way, i would use something better than wasabi wallet to mix your coins. Wink

If the "something better" requires third party trust, I would suggest, be fair and inform newbies that they have a choice with a trust-minimized option. The choice is theirs.

figmentofmyass

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Quote from: figmentofmyass on December 13, 2019, 06:05:41 PM

one drawback of wasabi wallet is that it's blatantly obvious you are using a coinjoin because it enforces a 100-anonymity set. another is the ~0.1BTC minimum. it's definitely cheaper than swapping to monero though.

wasabi wallet's obviousness has bitten at least one user. his withdrawals from binance singapore were suspended pending a KYC questionnaire after analysis revealed withdrawals to wasabi from his account. https://twitter.com/bittlecat/status/1207621591820951552

CZ responded and seems to be implying this is specific to the singapore operation. https://twitter.com/cz_binance/status/1207825158783696896

Quote

Binance SG operates under the requirements set forth by MAS and our MAS regulated partner, Xfers. Hence there are AML CFT controls set in place.

Not something for us to decide.

either way, i would use something better than wasabi wallet to mix your coins. Wink

figmentofmyass

legendary

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Quote from: Wind_FURY on December 18, 2019, 02:16:51 AM

Quote from: figmentofmyass on December 17, 2019, 06:20:20 PM

cutting out middlemen and tumbling at the protocol level is obviously ideal, but we are in a transitional state where coinjoin liquidity is very poor. not only can wasabi wallet's high minimum and large anonymity set leave users waiting around to get their coinjoin done, but it's very obvious that these users are participating in a coinjoin together. in a world of increasingly strict risk-based AML/KYC policies, that may be problematic.

This is true, liquidity has been a problem with the more non-centralized way of doing things. Like BISQ, it's avoided, users prefer the centralized exchanges.

But what are we here for? What path should we take?

the bitcoin way of doing things is to create economic incentives to achieve desired behavior, then to let the free market run its course. i believe (and hope) that signature aggregation will provide those incentives. it ought to because transaction size will be drastically reduced vs conventional multi-sig. centralized mixers will then become even more uneconomical by comparison. that should drive more and more liquidity towards coinjoins, which will in turn make more private coinjoins (with smaller anonymity sets) possible.

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