BIP39 mnemonic phrase. | Bitcointalksearch.org

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Quote from: Cricktor on July 06, 2023, 10:39:56 AM

A bit off-topic: I remember having checked how "normal" Electrum handles normalization with the optional mnemonic passphrase. I can't remember if I found something strange or unexpected, but I remember that there was something that surprised me. But I forgot or didn't document for me what it was.

pooya87 and I discussed this on a previous thread here: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.61745337

The summary is that Electrum makes everything lowercase, removes all accents/diacritics, and removes all duplicate white spaces.

Cricktor

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As it usually is the case, the devil lays in the details. I have difficulties reading and fully understanding Electrum's source code. And I admit, that I haven't tested test vectors as thorough as needed with the modified script. Subtle differences with normalization can indeed throw things off. Thanks for pointing this out.

A bit off-topic: I remember having checked how "normal" Electrum handles normalization with the optional mnemonic passphrase. I can't remember if I found something strange or unexpected, but I remember that there was something that surprised me. But I forgot or didn't document for me what it was.

pooya87

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Quote from: Cricktor on July 06, 2023, 07:55:42 AM

It is rather easy to modify the iancoleman.html script for ...

It sounds easy on paper but to truly implement the same algorithm takes a lot more than changing two lines of code. Specifically speaking the normalization method that Electrum uses for both mnemonic and the extra word (AKA passphrase) is very specific and slightly complicated to duplicate. As we can clearly see in this copy you shared the code for normalization is not implemented at all. If we test the html result it also doesn't support other languages and it also doesn't normalize the passphrase correctly. Test vectors can be found here

o_e_l_e_o

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Quote from: Cricktor on July 06, 2023, 07:55:42 AM

The modified iancoleman-Electrum script can't generate mnemonic words from entropy AFAIR, but my memory might be clouded, it's been some time ago I used and played with it.

Correct. The process for generating Electrum seed phrases is quite different to that for BIP39 seed phrases, and requires repeatedly incrementing the entropy to reach one which gives the necessary version number on hashing. It would require significant chunks of new code to be able to generate Electrum seed phrases. As you say though, the changes required to input Electrum seed phrases are very minimal.

Quote from: Cricktor on July 06, 2023, 07:55:42 AM

I checked the small changes from the forked iancoleman version and it looked safe to me. But as usual: DYOR and DYOV (V=verification)

If you want to make the changes yourself, follow these instructions: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.62166549

Cricktor

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Quote from: pooya87 on July 06, 2023, 12:41:10 AM

- There is what Electrum uses but there is no documentation of the algorithm, you'd have to read the code in python and understand what it does which is not suitable for someone who wants to implement it for another wallet specially if the program language is different. There is also certain features of the algorithm (like being loose about the word list used) which is not something all developers agree is a good idea.

It is rather easy to modify the iancoleman.html script for verification of Electrum mnemonic recovery words and key and address generation, there's really no heavy changes in the algorithmic logic to accomplish this. The modified iancoleman-Electrum script can't generate mnemonic words from entropy AFAIR, but my memory might be clouded, it's been some time ago I used and played with it.

I think this was the source of the modified script, it's forked from an older version of iancoleman script: https://github.com/FarCanary/ElectrumSeedTester

I checked the small changes from the forked iancoleman version and it looked safe to me. But as usual: DYOR and DYOV (V=verification)

satscraper

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Quote from: pooya87 on July 06, 2023, 12:41:10 AM

Quote from: satscraper on July 05, 2023, 03:38:32 PM

Quote from: Zoomic on June 29, 2023, 12:50:17 PM

Why is it popular?

Just wanna add to all reputable responses. BIP 39 mnemonic phrase relies upon build-in checksum data which reduces the risk of accidental typos. I don't say that it is the main root of its wide adoption but probably one of them.

Nah, the only reason for BIP39 adoption is lack of alternative or better say a "better" alternative. There are two other options and they are, lets say, "challenging to adopt".

Yeah, "better alternative" available at the right moment would be likely a winner, but the truth is there were no "better alternative" at the time when BIP39 has started to spread. Now I'm in a big doubt that any alternative, "better or worse, "appeared right now would surpass BIP39 as it would require full reconstruction of the wallets' "industry".

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Quote from: Bitcoin_Arena on July 03, 2023, 07:23:52 PM

Folks, don't waste your time with OP

You mean "icynote_original" right?
Not actually the OP.

Aside from his frequent questionable technical support questions,
his latest posts are mostly plagiarism so he'll be nuked/banned in no time.

pooya87

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Quote from: satscraper on July 05, 2023, 03:38:32 PM

Quote from: Zoomic on June 29, 2023, 12:50:17 PM

Why is it popular?

Just wanna add to all reputable responses. BIP 39 mnemonic phrase relies upon build-in checksum data which reduces the risk of accidental typos. I don't say that it is the main root of its wide adoption but probably one of them.

Nah, the only reason for BIP39 adoption is lack of alternative or better say a "better" alternative. There are two other options and they are, lets say, "challenging to adopt".

- There is what Electrum uses but there is no documentation of the algorithm, you'd have to read the code in python and understand what it does which is not suitable for someone who wants to implement it for another wallet specially if the program language is different. There is also certain features of the algorithm (like being loose about the word list used) which is not something all developers agree is a good idea.

- There is also Aezeed which is pretty new and the algorithm makes implementing it is very complicated because it depends on an cryptography algorithm that is not common at all called AEZ. That means the developer is not being able to find a library/package for it to use in their project like they'd find for something like SHA256. There's is pretty much only the official C implementation on their website which they'd have to write a wrapper around for any other language which is a pain in the butt. It's also an overkill since a mnemonic's strength is in the entropy it uses not the key derivation algorithm under the hood.

satscraper

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Quote from: Zoomic on June 29, 2023, 12:50:17 PM

Why is it popular?

Just wanna add to all reputable responses. BIP 39 mnemonic phrase relies upon build-in checksum data which reduces the risk of accidental typos. I don't say that it is the main root of its wide adoption but probably one of them.

Zoomic

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Quote from: Bitcoin_Arena on July 03, 2023, 07:23:52 PM

Folks, don't waste your time with OP

He is probably a troll/alt account of a scammer humerh3 who is a fake wallet seller (those who know Russian or can translate - https://archive.ph/TVH4X)

Obviously, he is trying to use a subtle approach, but there is a connection and his intentions are not genuine here
1. https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/--5456963
2. https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/--5456963#msg62500008

His words are not connected.
Not logical enough to believe.
How can one only remember 3 out of 12 and yet remembers the order of the 3. His intentions are not clear. Maybe we are wasting our time here.

icynote_original

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Quote from: Cricktor on July 04, 2023, 05:50:28 AM

Quote from: Synchronice on July 04, 2023, 02:13:05 AM

I have no doubts that people can memorize 12 or 24 mnemonic words or 10000 digits of Pi. Once you learned them, you have to continue to repeat them and don't miss to verify that your memory is still accurate. Your head might be the safest storage for your secrets but it's also the least reliable one. To verify reliably, you need a safe copy and because of that I consider sole memorization in your head as pointless and dangerous. It has proven more than once to be a recipe for desaster.

If you stop repeating and verifying, you're likely going to introduce errors or forget parts or almost all of it. A trauma or severe illness can erase (big) parts of your memory. I wouldn't want to rely on my biological memory for longer time because I know it will fail me sooner or later.

It's not my cup of tea.

I have copy on my laptop and now my laptop have been burn. when I check my hard disk, it's impossible to recovery all files. Sad

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Quote from: Breadyfreddy on July 04, 2023, 03:08:10 AM

If I remember my 24 words, I'd definitely have a backup, just in case.

just simply lost if you forget.

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Quote from: Synchronice on July 04, 2023, 02:13:05 AM

I have no doubts that people can memorize 12 or 24 mnemonic words or 10000 digits of Pi. Once you learned them, you have to continue to repeat them and don't miss to verify that your memory is still accurate. Your head might be the safest storage for your secrets but it's also the least reliable one. To verify reliably, you need a safe copy and because of that I consider sole memorization in your head as pointless and dangerous. It has proven more than once to be a recipe for desaster.

If you stop repeating and verifying, you're likely going to introduce errors or forget parts or almost all of it. A trauma or severe illness can erase (big) parts of your memory. I wouldn't want to rely on my biological memory for longer time because I know it will fail me sooner or later.

It's not my cup of tea.

Breadyfreddy

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If I remember my 24 words, I'd definitely have a backup, just in case.

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Quote from: Cricktor on July 03, 2023, 07:54:54 AM

No software, no hardware currently in existance on this planet can help you to find your missing nine words in your lifetime. Additionally the required energy to find your words is likely much more expensive than what your wallet probably holds.

And people choose 24 words seed phrase because they think it's way more secure than 12 words but on top of that, they prefer to use their own wordlist instead of BIP39 mnemonic phrases because it's public Cheesy

Quote from: Cricktor on July 03, 2023, 07:54:54 AM

Think hard: how did you memorize your twelve words? Some people create a story with the words or similar techniques. It's hard to believe you didn't have a physical copy for the training and memorization phase. What happened with that copy?

Didn't you regularly repeat and check your memory? To verify your memory, you need a physical copy. And this makes memorizing the words pointless, except for a short time if you have to cross a border under distress or similar situations where keeping a physical copy could be harmful.

It's not hard to memorize 12 words if you regularly repeat those 12 words over and over again, every day, multiple times a day for weeks or months. A lot of people here are skeptical about this idea for some valid reasons though, but writing down on paper or telling its location to someone else is risky as well.
I would say, memorizing of 12 words is the most secure and untouchable way to store seeds in this world.

Bitcoin_Arena

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Folks, don't waste your time with OP

He is probably a troll/alt account of a scammer humerh3 who is a fake wallet seller (those who know Russian or can translate - https://archive.ph/TVH4X)

Obviously, he is trying to use a subtle approach, but there is a connection and his intentions are not genuine here
1. https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/--5456963
2. https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/--5456963#msg62500008

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Quote from: icynote_original on July 03, 2023, 04:48:45 AM

Yes, I very remember for number 1, 11 and 12, but for 9 word not remember.
Can you give suggest? what software can I using for it? Shocked

No software, no hardware currently in existance on this planet can help you to find your missing nine words in your lifetime. Additionally the required energy to find your words is likely much more expensive than what your wallet probably holds.

If you don't understand the English language good enough, use DeepL or Google translator. Nobody can find missing nine words out of a twelve word mnemonic recovery. If you had them only in your memory, then this was a terrible mistake. It's a recipe for desaster to not have a physical backup of your mnemonic recovery words. And your issue is proof for that.

Think hard: how did you memorize your twelve words? Some people create a story with the words or similar techniques. It's hard to believe you didn't have a physical copy for the training and memorization phase. What happened with that copy?

Didn't you regularly repeat and check your memory? To verify your memory, you need a physical copy. And this makes memorizing the words pointless, except for a short time if you have to cross a border under distress or similar situations where keeping a physical copy could be harmful.

icynote_original

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Quote from: Z-tight on July 02, 2023, 01:04:39 PM

Quote from: icynote_original on July 02, 2023, 12:46:59 PM

I have 12 word mnemonic, and I only remember 1, 11 and 12. is there possible for recovery it? please help me.

How are you sure that the words your remember out of the 12 is word 1, 11 and 12, did you memorize your seed phrase? If you did, that's terrible and the fastest way to lose your BTC.

I know of https://github.com/3rdIteration/btcrecover
https://github.com/3rdIteration/btcrecover/blob/master/docs/Seedrecover_Quick_Start_Guide.md

I have never used it, but i think it is most helpful and "easier" to use if you have all the mnemonics, but you don't have them in the correct order, in your case which i am surprised, you have only 3 words out of 12, so i don't know if it is possible to recover it.

Yes, I very remember for number 1, 11 and 12, but for 9 word not remember.
Can you give suggest? what software can I using for it? Shocked

Quote from: Zoomic on July 02, 2023, 03:16:39 PM

Quote from: hosseinimr93 on July 02, 2023, 08:37:58 AM

Almost all non-custodial wallets (with a few exceptions) support BIP39 seed phrase. If you have a BIP39 seed phrase and you know the derivation path, there's nothing to worry about. There are many wallets that can be used for recovering your wallets. (Note that most wallets use standard derivation paths and there is no need to save or write down the derivation path at all)

Worries faded away and the suggestions are sticked to my memory now.

Quote from: crwth on July 02, 2023, 10:46:36 AM

Isn't it because BIP39 mnemonic phrase is somewhat a friendlier way to remember the private keys or something? You cannot determine it just basing on the seed phrase itself I think unless you input it into the wallet software that you have.

The summary of it and the answer to my question is gotten here. Thanks.

Quote from: icynote_original on July 02, 2023, 12:46:59 PM

I have 12 word mnemonic, and I only remember 1, 11 and 12. is there possible for recovery it? please help me.

How did you know the words you remembered are 1, 11 and 12?
Don't you think it is 1, 2 and 3.
When you use the word remembered, it shows that you memorised your seed phrase, which is not a good habit. Even if you could remember all, you will still miss the order of arrangement.

Yes, sure... I remember number 1, 11 and 12 (3 words) but for 9 words forget.

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Quote from: icynote_original on July 02, 2023, 12:46:59 PM

I have 12 word mnemonic, and I only remember 1, 11 and 12. is there possible for recovery it? please help me.

There is no possible way to brute force 9 words. Did you write your seed phrase down on paper like you are supposed to? If you did, then go an retrieve you back up. If you only committed it to memory and have forgotten 9 words, then you coins are lost I'm afraid.

In addition to BIP39 and Electrum seed phrases being discussed here, note there are also other phrases in use, such as Aezeed for LND, old style blockchain.com password phrases, or SLIP39 phrases.

pooya87

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Quote from: crwth on July 02, 2023, 10:46:36 AM

Isn't it because BIP39 mnemonic phrase is somewhat a friendlier way to remember the private keys or something?

The main purpose of creating mnemonic out of an arbitrary data is to be able to write down that data and later on to enter that data in the application. Compare entering a base58 private key and entering a 12 word seed with your keyboard.
It is not easy nor suggested to memorize the mnemonic.

Topic: BIP39 mnemonic phrase. (Read 708 times)