Topic: BitBay OFFICIAL BITBAY Thread Smart Contracts Decentralized Markets Rolling Peg - page 136. (Read 542140 times)

Read the whitepaper and found some of the concepts extremely interesting insofar as digital trade is concerned.  There is little mention of dealing with physical goods in the real world ie: ebay's current province.  So, have I got this wrong then?  Is bitbay primarily geared toward plugging holes in crypto trade/digital trade, with exchange of physical goods ancillary to that end?


A small $4 deposit on a $4 item is cumbersome and illogical to most normies.


I can think of about a million examples where $2500 on $10K would be impossible, or cause undue harm/distress to the one putting down the deposit.

The issue I'm seeing here is why a 42 year old house wife would sit down to buy her widgits and baubles and on one hand you have ebay...click and buy...and on the other bitbay where you have to put down a deposit on top of the purchase price.  As far as most people are concerned when money leaves their account its gone, even if there's a promise it's coming back.  So the housewife would choose ebay and IMO so would most buyers given what I'm seeing here.  And where the buyers go the sellers follow, not the other way around.

You haven't yet addressed why people can't create burner accounts to game the system.  You go into detail regarding an example that seems to focus on one person/one account.  Is there anything stopping one person from holding multiple accounts?  Is there anything stopping that person from using one of those accounts to build up rep buying junk with the intention of scamming a seller on a large item (ie, only having to pay the fractional deposit on an item worth four times as much, etc).  Will rep be weighted based on dollar/bay value of transactions completed, or is it (let's say) one rep point regardless of whether it's a $4 or $10K transaction?


That's not justice.  At all.


It is a big deal due to inflation.  It's why no one keeps money in a savings account, because it loses money.  That's why I suggested you need some sort of incentive for people to keep their funds locked up.  You've killed their liquidity for days or weeks and will be guranteeing them a loss on the locked funds (albiet in practice probably an inconsequential amount).  So, what do they get in return, aside from a completed transaction?


Because you're the sole avatar of this project and you're asking for a billion dollars...possibly billions?

I know I must sound like a ballbuster but crypto devs tend to exist in an echo chamber and often have an aspie level of focus on minutiae and sometimes fail to see the forest for the trees.  The positivity around here is fantastic and in truth this isn't really the venue for dissenting opinions.  My ultimate goal is to help strengthen the project by fostering alternative perspectives -- considering all the options.  At worst I make myself look like an ass and everyone gets a laugh.

Perhaps. It's good to see both sides of the value perspective. Lower price, time to buy, higher price time to sell or, at least in my case, hold... 

the best is that the price will soon be back at the point i will buy more. last time bought at 360sats. and i still not sold these coins.

That's for sure. Actually, I see the ICO madness draining millions (billions?) from the ALTS as the buying frenzy continues. Don't think there's much to do about it but wait for it to settle down. unfortunately, continued growth in that sector will draw more regulation which can be good, or bad depending which heads are doing the thinking & regulating...

too many shitcoins and scams being pumped right now and is draining money from the real projects.
this will eventually change it will just take some time.

Bitbay has a very huge vision and have accomplished most of their promises, the features bitbay currently have implemented are awesome and the dev are adding more over time. But in my view, for bitbay to receive adoption from people other than those in within the crypto community, they will have to worker harder towards eliminating the need for users to download the whole blockchain before being able to use the market.

as of now, this is one of the highest working product in the market. thumb up !!

We are going to get a nice video produced for the website that will explain the basics in a succinct manner. That should help get people up to speed about the basics more quickly in the future!

Sorry but you initiated with poor etiquette. Regardless I'm happy to answer your questions. Again... I did respond we have had these types of questions before over the years. I'm not sure why I need to whitewash myself or sugar coat everything. This is a great system. Please forgive me if I was uncouth certainly wasn't my intention.

So to respond... there is a rep system. Why would nobody buy an inexpensive item? A small $4 deposit on a $4 item is perfectly fine. We have had tons of items sold this way. Also we have done in practice very large transactions up to 5,000 dollars. Mostly cash deals coins for cash. There is no company you can trust to properly handle cash deals as even Coinbase is known to shut down and confiscate funds. This works, it's peer to peer and makes theft profitless. And we have used it this way, successfully (we really need a testimonial video).

Now lets say you are involved in a 10k deal, even a deposit of 2500 should be no issue here. Everything revolves around the evidence of your previous deals.

For example, lets say you did 10 deals but lost the 11th. Okay so now that shows on the blockchain (not the contract but the explosion and public key)... people will know immediately you lost your last deal. They may require a higher bond. If you lose 2 deals in a row, then they may even demand higher bonds and so forth.

Okay you asked "who foots the bill"... nobody. This ELIMINATES middle men. There is no judge, no juror who by the way are usually wrong and just guess. There is no justice in this world we are trying to bring that back. When a contract blows up BOTH buyer and seller lose funds.

Think of this analogy, both of your children are fighting. One is lying but you can't find out who. So, you punish both. You kindly explain "I know one of you are telling me the truth and I think I know who it is, but this way both of you will know not to lie as it will never favor you. If I was to choose, then I might choose wrong and reward the one who lies so I reward neither in order to never incentivize a lie."

Nobody loses money by having funds in a contract, they get it back when the deal is over. As you said when it is in limbo it's really no big deal because their daily volume of sales will not usually exceed what they have in the bank. Power sellers who sell 1000s of items a year only maybe sell a few items a day, which based on their net would be nothing (probably not even 5% of the money in their bank).

A power seller would probably not be asked for a high deposit either even lessening that burden further. Think of this like a trust building exercise. We find two strangers, one is a thief one is honest. They enter traditional double deposit, the theif has no chance to win with a profit, he concedes to accept it. After the thief has done 1000 deals, well his deposit requirement may cut down to only 10%... but even so, he is STILL losing if he defaults.

There is really no profit incentive to cheat regardless of deposit levels. When I said "go into a DDE contract with me, if you think you have the guts to blow one up I challenge you to" it wasn't meant to put you off. On the contrary, you can see yourself the power of this system and sometimes seeing is believing. I certainly wouldn't blow up a contract(unless I was forced to) and to my knowledge no Bitbay contract has ever blown up.

Whitepaper is here:
https://davtonia.com/blackhalo/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/whitepaper_twosided.pdf

It's not on the site although thanks we should add it, this is my paper from 2014, I've been around for a long time man. BitHalo(my other software) was the first smart contracts on any blockchain a year before Ethereum.

I'm definitely NOT afraid of mimicry let along anything. It's been like this for a while now, we have a working product and it's just a matter of fact that crypto has no chargebacks, there is nobody to save people from theft. We have a solution, I think it should be the industry STANDARD. Consider almost 50% of all bitcoins have been stolen to 3rd party escrow hacks! Finally we have solved a problem challenging mankind for millennia. Do I expect it to change overnight? No, but I've been fighting until my fingers bleed to educate people on it. That is because it's for a cause bigger than myself. This definitely isn't about me. It's about an idea and "Ideas are bulletproof". It's important and it is a proposal to change how things are agreed to. Agreement is the foundation of almost everything in society. If we can just get that to favor honest people it would be an awesome shift in paradigm.

Nobody is really patting anyone on the back. Sure there are some very nice things said here and I fully appreciate it to the highest degree. And yes we have a very bullish and supportive community but they have been around for years. A lot of the people here could answer these questions on their own, they know it by heart.

So don't get the wrong impression my friend. I'm extremely busy and I will come by, answer things and sometimes put a new spin on my answer to show the various perspectives and angles to why this is such an important change. The community can answer these questions and they want to engage in debate (as long as it's not against people who have bad intentions) which I'm assuming your intentions are great. So yes please keep the questions coming. Nobody here is afraid of debate and it keeps us engaged and helps improve the product. Just realize when I'm here responding I'm not coding. So I have to do my job too.

FYI, if I don't answer, I'm busy coding or managing our slack so if someone wants to chime in please do.

I don't know why you're calling me out with that sort of language.  I sincerely want this project to succeed.  I also don't think you quite understand my concerns as you don't address them directly.  I feel, in practice, no one will buy inexpensive items because it's silly to put down a deposit on a $4 item.  And I feel, in practice, no one will buy expensive items because putting a chunky deposit down might be out of possibility for many, or may seem absurd or unfair.  In a very real way, people are losing money by having it tied in limbo and I feel most understand that on a visceral level even if it's not something everyone can articulate.

Regarding a scamming buyer, whats to stop someone from opening burner accounts and getting a bit of rep with the intention of ripping off a seller who doesn't require a full deposit?  I didn't understand your response?

Who backs the bonds?  Who foots the bill if the bond buyer renegs?

I ask simply how can you deliver in practice, how does it work..and have yet to get a straight, concise answer that makes sense when applied to the chaos of real-world markets and irrational actors.

Where's the whitepaper?  For what passes as a whitepaper these days you can [and should] outline the broadstrokes for idiots like me.  Saying you don't want people to copy your work is a silly reason not to draft a whitepaper.  It's like that wannabe writer everyone knows who won't share his idea cause someone will steal it!!!    Fear of mimicry is really just the fear someone else will do it better.  It speaks to a lack of confidence in the execution.

If this thing is almost done why can't you or any of your myriad supporters explain how double deposit works in practice, and why people will choose to use it over existing players in this space.  Zero fees is a good place to start but it's not enough to entice the first wave of people IMO.

I'm not up on the etiquette around here...in fact it's a lack of general etiquette that keeps me away.  If this thread is merely to pat one another on the back then forgive my intrusion.  However I assumed this was a place to engage in informed discussion.  I'm not a rich person and chose to back this project with what few spare shekels I have because I found the goals relatable and respected the perseverance and seeming integrity of the dev.  Starting to feel like I've made a mistake.

They don't put down "double" the money, the term is a misnomer. If you are dealing with someone you don't trust they simply put a bond equal to the item value. If you are buying an item for $4 and don't have $4 for a deposit then you have a bigger problem.

Also you can do custom deposits. I'm sure you know and realize this. If you trust the buyer then let him put down $1 deposit on a $4 item. There is a reputation system and deposits are flexible. This is an attempt to fix a major problem in society. That's why I'm so stubborn. Let's make the world a little better.

An "unscrupulous buyer" who keeps blowing up deals will immediately be noticed(it shows on the chain). After two exploded deals people will start requiring higher bonds. And a fool and his money will soon be parted. He will go broke quick.  These are the types of morons we are attempting to eliminate. It's much better than rewarding him for scamming isn't it? If you want to hop on E-Bay and get a chargeback or an empty box more power to you. The odds of that are many times higher than you losing on this platform.

The only people who argue this are usually people who are difficult to begin with(playing devils advocate really doesn't need a reward, the devil needs no extra help) and the type of people who will find themselves losing on business deals. Also scammers tend to complain about this platform (i wonder why). Honest people need a part of society to trade with each other. That tiny little corner is here. If you are honest and want to join in please do.

If you feel like you can blow up an escrow I will happily join you in an unbreakable contract. We will see if you have the balls to do that.

Does anyone else not see the issue with double deposits?  I was being a jerk about it a few posts back, but seriously who will put down double the money?  Think about it.  In this fast paced world who would want to lock up XX amount for days or weeks as an item is enroute?  Digital crypto transactions will have their place on bay, but methinks the marketplace will be the biggest draw.

So will the average person put down a double deposit on an item for $3.98?  No, because they're trying to get the best price and putting down $8 for something that costs $4 just doesn't make sense...

...I mean, yes, it does make sense to a rational, sane, smart person, but the market is none of those things.

And I'm sure as hell not going to put down $500 on a $500 item, just not happening.

...But wait, you say.  The deposit doesn,t have to be 100% all of the time?  Well great then an unscrupulous buyer will rack up a bit of rep purchasing junk, will rip a seller off (getting the item at a discount if the collateral isn't 100%) and then disappear.  Word of mouth would kill it.

These are just some of the glaring deficiencies I see with a collateral/deposit system.  100% collateral is offputting, anything less than 100% collateral invites fraud.

The feel good vibe around here is great...but I've been in more than one real life situation where a project looks great on paper but comes apart at the seams in execution all because obvious problems were glossed over in an effort to get it done.

Welcome to BitBay Bamsterdam  

I see David has answered most of your questions, so I will focus on the one he forgot.

Consumers and merchants want stable prices. The volatility you find in crypto is one of the biggest obstacles for adoption. We will allow price to move, but reduce the volatility. That way consumers and merchants can start using Bay, and thus push price up.Also, some investors want to have part of their portofolio less volatile.
For the traders we have a very interesting alternative: frozen coins. They can be moved, but with a delay. We are discussing how much of a delay right now, but expect it to be 1-3 months. Those coins are therefor not suitable to use for shopping, and will likely have a lower value than liquid coins. For a trader that can be heaven. Buy cheap frozen coins, wait for them to become liquid, and cash in.

The top 20 right now is a joke. We have worthless coins like ETC/BCH and fake pumped up coins like IOTA/Qtum/EOS etc. Once these new shitcoins dump,  they will dump for good. The hype is around new coins, few months back it was gnosis/golem and now EOS/omisego. Pendulum swings both ways, waiting for it to swing the other way.

Meanwhile fill your bags.

Hey so the control of price is decentralized. This is a decentralized peg unlike Tether. And this peg can move up and down in price. This is similar to an economic "crawling peg". The idea is the supply is dynamic so unlike Bitcoin with it's inflation we can deflate by freezing coins. This allows us to defend against dumps. This is why so many investors who are economic buffs are so excited about this project.

The whole point of the peg is as demand rises the supply can do so organically. And if a pumper tries to go too far high they will lose if we inflate. So the community collectively controls this by competing for a price they think will fit best. They can vote via algorithm or custom.

We don't know why this isn't top 10 for that matter. We deal with a tremendous amount of adversity and propaganda. However, whatever we face we can overcome with spreading the word and marketing. As you said this is real so why would a vaporware product be above ours must be corrected. Tell friends show people this thing really works.

The BitBay serves as insurance for the deal with double deposit. So there is no reason you can't use these markets and pay in Bitcoin or even Fiat for that matter. We are a much, much better platform than open bazaar because these contracts don't have escrow. OB has to guess when someone lies in a dispute which will mean many sellers and buyers will get burned. We offer a solution to a real world problem... deception. The double deposit contracts force honesty by keeping it to the 2 parties involved with the deposit as the disincentive for breach.

And thanks, those were excellent questions.

hello bitbay community  

my first post here I think. Been looking at the project for some time now have a small amount of bitbay and bought some more after reading the op. Still wondering if I should buy more but also still have lots of reading to do on the project.

I already saw lots of cool features that are working in the system. And when I see this from a technical view current prices make no sense. So what is going on? I get the feeling the budget for the project is not big? Is it via donations? Are there any plans for marketing? Cause this is a already working platform with all kind of features so why isnt it used? Why does so little people know about it? Bitbay should be more in the spotlight. Hype is a swear word to some but bitbay could use some I think. So many things overhyped but bitbay has something to show for no vaporware or just roadmaps.

The roadmap says that you are planning to make a mechanism the control the supply to meet demand in the future. For various reasons. Bit hard to understand, but if you are a trader or investor you dont want a stable price(maybe in the end). I get that as a seller or buyer you want the stability since they otherwise would have to sell every bitbay for bitcoin or something else. But here seems to be a contradiction ? traders wants volume and price swings and investors wants volume too because that attracts interest etc and price is more likely go higher in the end with ups and downs of course. So how will this work with this price stability mechanism?

Also is there any incentive why a higher price for bitbay would be needed if the platform would be more popular? Like you have with factom for example?

is it possible for someone that sells something and gets paid in bitbay to convert it to bitcoin? And sorry last lazy question why should people go for bitbays marketplace instead of openbazaar for example


also I also think that a nice lay out of the marketplace is important people are used to it and are expecting those things

thanks

Yes I saw it man, I think they fear you or something. Same with particl, I was there before but now that I know BitBay those cryptos just look like nothing to me.
This crypto is crazy imo, sure it's UI doesn' look nice but the features are crazy.

What amazes me too is the people accusing this coin of scam, while it's the just the whole opposite.
Your rolling peg for example could be used as an anti-scam measure, nobody could surprise dump the price once you have that.
This is going to revolutionize crypto man

Lot of scammy bullshit ico coins with fake volume and fake caps infesting the top 100.

I mean look at the top100 i hardly recognise any projects there.

Once people click on to the fact they have no solid development teams and their roadmaps are dreams and talk bullshit they will collapse.

I do think we need 2 things that we do not have

1. an incentive to accumulate and hold (could argue peg and roadmap are the reasons )
2. an easy way for other dev teams to build apps and websites for specialised services on top of bitbay core and a way for them to fund raise and issue their own tokens.


Even without number 2 if we complete our road map the project should be top10 minimum.

Ethereum cut in 2/3 and so did a bunch of other coins. Look at the 3-6 month chart. The altcoin market is still very bullish a lot of new money is coming into Bitcoin.

What happened to you guys?  This used to be a big part of my portfolio but I got out about a month ago.  I'm not trying to be negative I am just curious is all.  Sounded like a project with big potential but you guys aren't even top 100 anymore