Topic: BitBay OFFICIAL BITBAY Thread Smart Contracts Decentralized Markets Rolling Peg - page 312. (Read 542094 times)

i really want this project succeed. the idea is great and there is a need for decentralized markets.

Yupp. I totally agree.  I will be taking profits from VRC, which is going crazy now and move into Bitbay.  I just hope it will stay low for a while.

Thats very nice. Buy order in place. I was waiting for a price dump...

@hawaii18k
Don't worry we will walk before we start sprinting 
First David will finish the templates for the market, then Night trader, and then we can get serious about pegging.

Thank you very much for your donation. We will put it to good use. Others have started donating as well.
For those of you out there that want to contribute, please send Bay to: B6HtsEuEQfzJTsf751xFj11DpuFjzQfgiS

Things happen in crypto as well. Just think Mt. Gox. Actually the risk is bigger in crypto than in fiat.

Well I still have my doubts and like you have mentioned, history does not bod well for currency pegging.  What makes this time different? I don't know.  Munti have better grasp on situation so I won't argue anymore.  But some how this reminds me of Bern Bernanke saying QE is not money printing. 

But actually my main point was to kick the can down the road.  Our worry should be on success of market penetration.  Not just appreciation on value of Bitbay, but having wallet installed on every pcs out there.  And people actually using the contract system to buy and sell.  By itself is tough sell.  Complicating the matter with other distractions such as pegging etc is detrimental and unnecessary complication imho.  It is tough getting used contract system itself. I had trouble understanding it.  My wife would never understand it.  If I tell her, you gotta double down and could lose it all, they she would  it sounds risky.  If I tell here some of coins can be frozen then she would call me crazy or worse dumb.

Apple is apple because my wife and kids can use it. Simple and intuitive.   Lets put currency pegging on the road map.  Let wider audience hear about it later on.  Then it can be decided to incorporate into platform or not.

Thanks guys, been very interesting conversation.  Hope write some more tomorrow. 

Ok.

Just sent a 250k donation to the address.

I will continue to think about ramification regarding currency control.  The point I like about bitcoin is that its non inflationary and out of reach from money printing central bankers.  Pegging to dollar is like taking a step backward. 

Please remember that 2011 happened.  2009 crash happened.  Oil shock happened.  Things happen thats beyond our imagination and expectations.  Alan Greenspan said all is well and subprime mortgage happened.  People taking out double mortgage, I knew it was all going down bad and it did.  Its just common sense.

Anyway, I am not totally against it, after reading your posts, but till remain cautious. 

thanks.

Well thanks Munti, its puts better light on the subject.  Currency is big step and frankly a great experimentation.  It may work or may not.  Its hard to foresee and anticipate what nature could be throwing at you. 

I get a nagging feeling that we are talking about sprinting when we haven't learned to walk.    My gut feeling or educated guess would be to first ready and launch the platform and do a implementation down the load.  I don't see why this has to be rushed or included in initial rollout.  Pegging is innovative idea and as you put it, will start low and slow anyway.  Let see how platform performs and see that client base grow.  Maybe at that point, this crucial decision to implement currency control can be made.

Investors and users expect decentralized market place.  Thats what Bitbay name stands for.  Lets give them that first and grow from there.  This seems more prudent approach. 

sent pm.

First of all, fiat is showing a long history of failed pegs. This is not because pegging in it self can not be done, but because the consequences of maintaining a peg that is not matched by economic realities are so big. The value of a currency directly effects unemployment rate, tax systems and so on. For Bay it is a little easier. We only need to consider stability, effect for consumers and merchants, and investor reactions.

We have chosen to peg to the dollar because it is the world reserve currency, and thus big enough to be relatively stable (nothing has ever had a stable value). Doomsayers telling everyone how the dollar is about to crash is nothing new. I have heard that for twenty years now. Some day they might be right, but it's not likely to happen in any near future, or else the dollar would be a lot cheaper already. We could of course chose to peg to a mix of currencies to get it more stable, but that would require a team of experts to constantly balance and rebalance the mix we peg to. We don't think that is required to get a peg that is stable enough for our needs. If/when the dollar crashes, or some other currency becomes world reserve, it will be easy to peg to any other currency instead of USD.

Yes, controlling the supply is our most important tool to be able to maintain the peg. There will be a few support systems, so we don't have to change the amount of available bay for every minor fluctuation.
There is no reason to be worried about getting your coins locked. If we started pegging to day at say $0.01 and locked 90% of all Bay, you could sell your liquid 10% for more bitcoin or dollars than you can sell your whole bag for at the moment.
Big demand for Bay after all bay are released is also not a problem. We are talking about a rolling peg. Meaning the peg will change over time. So we are talking relative stability. We are not gonna pick a number like say $ 1 and declare that will be the value of Bay forever. Our goal is to get Bay stable enough for the market to function for ordinary people.
So we will start low, and let the value increase as Bay gets more adapted. Only we do it in defined steps instead of letting it fluctuate wildly. Again, we do this so it is more predictable for people who use Bay for real world business.
For an investor the big difference compared to an unpegged coin, is that the advantage is bigger for those that come in early. If you buy nextbigcoin for 100 sat and sell at 200, you have made a 100% profit. But then you are out. In Bay you can have the same profit selling liquid coins, but still have say 80% of your coins. They may be locked atm, but when more are released you can take profit again.

Overall there is no reason to be pessimistic about it 

 

Its a Bitbay address. Bitcoin addresses always start with a "1" or a "3". Hey thanks for the donation, will make sure to use it towards some nice infographics and marketing materials.

Currently, exchange value for BitBay and USD can be seen. Simply click on the "$" sign at the home page ... in the templates it depends on the template but dollar or Bay can be used. Wether or not it adjusts will depend on the template. Buyer doesnt need to calculate exchange rate in that case, just confirm it.

As for pegging you are close. However the idea of it being pegged to a dollar is a very old notion (perhaps this is one of the things that shoudl be updated in the OP). This system allows for a "rolling peg" so we can roll up the floor if we need to be deflating or if it goes up naturally thats ok as long as its stable.
This concern over the "dollar getting weak" is exactly why the system is designed this way. The major key is not to deflate too fast. Either way, if deflated, you inflate as long as the volume and demand is there, the price should be perfectly stable. Imagine how exciting things will be IF the price can go to a dollar 100% inflated! So the point is not to force it but we are searching for a solution that makes both investors and users of the market happy. Mostly limit volatility and allow long term growth. (Why not go higher than a dollar after a few years? Only time will tell and its too early to make promises)

So yes the idea of $1 is an extinct notion. The rolling peg may just start at ICO price and gradually deflate. The community should engage in discussion because this is an economic tool delving deep into economic theory.

Munti is by far the best one to ask about this, economics is his specialty and he has given me some helpful advice on the subject. We are still talking about all the possible scenarios and best ways to use the tools.

You point about "some of your bay being frozen" is 100% correct. Its not a voluntary freeze, it's mandatory. However, if you make accounts reflect their prices in BTC/Fiat then that amount should remain stable and perhaps is a more user friendly display.

The maximum deflation might be 1-2% per day. That has not been decided yet. Perhaps clients will choose to vote based on a math algorithm, we still need to run tests.

Lets say for example you have 100 coins. If after 1 month it deflates 50% to hit a target (perhaps ICO price) then you will have 50 reserve and 50 liquid. Those liquid coins should be worth more though in theory because supply went down. The voting is decentralized. If the community decides that deflation is stable it wont change much from 50/50. If it inflates you can sell the reserve.

If you want to sell reserve we are considering adding a 3-6 month time locked sale. This prevents is from having the same properties as the liquid coins and also gives it some similarities to a future. Perhaps locked coins will get sold at a discount. Only a person who plans on holding bay for years would want that OR maybe a person doing a sort of credit swap and they dont want to damage the market?! In my opinion this feature is what Bitcoin is missing. That and speed and time locks(and hell 20 other things).

 

Thanks for invitation but not sure if I am good enough know how to be any help.  Not even sure what slack does or for.  LoL.  Also is that bitcoin address or Bitbay address?  I will make 250k bitbay or equivalent donation.  Ain't much but hope it help revamping the face of Bitbay.

As for pegging system, I do not quite fully understand but it will be pegged to dollar?  And supply of Bitbay will be controlled by locking them in wallet or releasing them?  I do like the concept of stability on the Bitbay so that advertised price on contract stays same value, however I do see few of problem.

First, dollar isn't stable.  Its floating fiat currency just like any others like yuan yen or euros.  In us market no problem, but in international market, value of dollar fluctuates.  US dollar is somewhat stable now and hold world reserve currency status, but for how long?  USA is trillions in debt and can't increase interest rate higher than 1% which will crush the gov budget?  US gov, as any other major government out there, will have no choice to keep inflationary policy to lessen its debt load way  way way into future.  Its position as world reserve currency and petro dollar is weakening.  In fact IMF is proposing SDR or new world currency to replace US dollar. So if you are looking out 10 years down the road, this could be problem.

Second, the implementation of control on Bitbay.  How will you lock the supply?  Meaning I can't spend it?  Chee thanks alot.  Locking Bitbay will lower its supply and price goes up relative to dollar.  But when everyone goes crazy about Bitbay and wants to have some, Bitbay will get stronger in terms of dollar.  Then you can either release the supply of Bitbay from  wallet or bring down the supply of dollar, which we know isn't option.  But if all the Bitbays from wallets are released and demand is still too strong, Bitbay will go up higher in exchanges, via btc purchases, thus imbalance could ensue.  This also could happen if dollar value plumets, however unlikely it is.

I am sure you have thought about all this already, but I think it should be given more consideration before implemented.  Maybe  Bitbay 5.0?

For now, exchange ratio can be shown on wallet in Bitbay, BTC and dollar?    As for the problem of seller constantly needing to readjust its price, maybe let them sell in any of three,  bitbay, btc, or dollar.  And buyer will have to make calculation on exchange rate.  

In general many worlds currencies were tied to one another, like dollars and euros with mixed results.  Recently, I think switzerland unpegged from euros and saw its value wildly appreciate against euros and other currencies, causing  major disruption.

Overall I am bit pessimistic about it.  

Thanks this is very good feedback. In fact, a fund was set up recently that one of our most trusted slack members manages (if you want to coordinate on slack let us know) this is the wallet they set up B6HtsEuEQfzJTsf751xFj11DpuFjzQfgiS and im sure they will really appreciate the hand. Of course even if you don't donate I will make sure to set up a better OP. I think you are correct and some infographics and a great looking OP is a very good idea. I'm going to point some of them to this comment you made and see what they think.

Have you looked into the pegging/hedging system that will get added to BitBay? If not, i highly recommend looking at that because it pretty much is exactly what you asked. You said if price goes up, then it will market itself and that system is designed to allow demand matching supply in a completely decentralized way.

Thank you sir, it will be interesting.

Lol.  You have done a amazing job for one man show.  I was particularly impressed how installation proceeded like a software, unlike other  crypto mumbojumbos.  Only other wallet worthy of mention is VRC.  And yes I understand "simple" can be complicated on coding part.  And thats why Apple stands out.  But you need to remember Apple started out of garage, and its their product philosophy or rather Steve Jobs, that carried them all this years.  

Good to hear that contract/trading platform is fully functional.  But you will always have this problem.  No products listed, no one will buy.  No buyers so no one will list.  Its chicken and egg problem.  All other auctions sites failed because of this.  Only Ebay stands strong because its monopolistic presence reinforces itself.

Unless you are targeting corporation/business market, you would need to do mass marketing.  Either tried and true marketing blitz which cost lots of money or something like viral marketing.  Either way, its full time work and doubt if you can do it all alone, coding, relations, marketing etc etc.

Or, price goes up. All problem solved.  When people realize what a solid wallet you have, they will be thrilled.  But first they need to come and rising price will get their attention.

Perhaps Bitbay coin price fluctuation isn't your concern and it shouldn't be, but remember more supporters you have, more help you will have and words can spread faster.  I myself only came about your coin during my routine 700 pages coin chart scan.  Other wise, I would have never heard of it.  Trust me, price goes up, boards will be filled and more converts will show up.  Some of them might even start lending hands or donations or start listing contracts.  Who knows.

I know for sure at least beefed up OP page will help.  Use lots of cool graphics and plainly laid out road map with past accomplishments.  Put in dates too if possible.  Basically its same information but laid out better with cooler graphics.  Check out EKN op page ( https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/ekn-elektron-ekn-elektronfoundation-tor-market-bittrex-cryptsy-1019681 ).  Mostly its copycat vaporware with thin promises, not like Bitbay with solid product, and yet I bought in for quick ride because I know crowds will buy into it.  I bet you EKN will be has been in few months with missing dev.  But point is, people are people and they like cool looking stuff.  Just look how long EKNs OP page is.  Picture tells thousand words, and this is reason why corportions spends billions on marketing, letting people know what a great product they have.  

I am willing to donate some coins for graphic artist to "renovate" OP, and list some item when "template" is finished and off the beta status.  

It seems to me that perhaps you are perfectionist, trait that I admire, but seriously consider bring out the core product out of beta, cut out all the excess for future development, laid it out on roadmap on revamped OP page.  At least this will clearly show advanced wallet that you have.  Right now, you don't even have screen shot of beta wallet.  sigh.

I am speculator/investor so I do not mind dips( actually I love it), but clearer presentation will benefit whole community.  Bitbay is one of my few long term holds and will add more when I see dips and funds become available.  

David l just would like to wish you good luck at Mind the Gap crypto 2.0 virtual seminar.

Yes it is the same blockchain, all accounts are multisig. However the decentralized markets run off the blockchain to prevent bloating. The contracts have been functional for over one year tried and tested(Its BitHalo/BlackHalo). So you are in good hands. The markets are functional, im happy to do a contract with you. If you wish to post to the markets, please use "Custom Contract" template. I dont control the op but i will let the slack group know that we should have some nice diagrams. Price should go up when pegging/hedging is finished. However personally within the next month or two should be a good time to buy(thats only my opinion, i dont trade coins). I dont give people "hope and imagination" im sorry man, ive always given people concrete products. I cant stand hype and vaporware.

You already CAN post and make sales of any kind, you can hire barter trade coins whatever you want right now using the custom template. Just make deposits equal to the amount. AND you can type the amounts in Dollars it will automatically detect the market price and convert it.

There will be a decentralized coin exchange. You can look up NightTrader and that runs through BlackHalo and BitBay will be supported. However its not going to be finished until the templates are done.

I understand simple but simple and decentralization are actually complex to combine. For example for a cellphone app, you would need servers since phones don't have enough memory to run a program like this. However I think the "templates" will be the simple you are looking for. No other coin will make Halo "irrelevant" since Halo is the only smart contracting platform available right now and its been around for one full year. In my opinion there will always be people who enjoy the software and it will always be a part of crypto. Software takes time and patience and thats why you see almost no competitors(other projects arent being honest or are trying to be dark markets). Also, Apple has billions of dollars to put into UI, Halo/BitBay has only one coder and you are talking to him. This is my best effort to keep it simple ... like the setup wizard for example.

Thank you for the suggestions and support! Please let me know any feedback you have, its helpful.

Made some very interesting points! Welcome to the future hawaii18k!

Wow, this is the best and perhaps only decentralized market coin I have seen.  I am gonna buy more on this dips.  I did download the beta and applied the update.   It looks awesome.  Great job Devs.  I do have few questions and some suggestions if you don't mind.

Does this beta gui has same block chain as in regular bitbay wallet?  Also does the contract/market functional too?   I been selling on ebay for long time and this looks very viable option if it has wider acceptance.  

I noted few message above regarding marketing.  I would like offer some suggestions on that.  Forget about marketing, and materials etc.  All you need to do is have fancy professionally done OP with roadmap and *working products*.  Best way to market is for the price to go rocket up.  This will turn lots of heads and gain exposure on media.  You don't need perfect product, just hope and imagination is what you need to offer.  You already have fully working products?  Why not ditch services like jobs/barter/hire etc and set it for perhaps Bitbay 2.0.  But finish simple contract/market platform where simpleton like me can post and make a sale.    It would serve great for coin exchange also.  For example, on stock market, there is grey pool for big boys where they buy and sell big chunk outside stock exchange so the market price does not get affected.  What we need is simple yet polished product and not jack of all trade.  Something like Apple Iphone vs Samsung Galaxy.  Both are great but Apple is more simpler and intuitive to use.  You need an Apple like products.  Simple yet does what it does best.

Make a attainable roadmap, with realistic steps and goals.  Release products in timely fashion, and I am sure price will go up, which in turn,will bring in more crowds.  

Let me tell you, you want to be Ebay of Crypto land.  Ebay had first comer advantage and no one can challenge that anymore.  Bitbay also has potential to be one.  But time is of essence and lots competitor are cropping up.  Do it or become irrelevant.  Simple.

Yeah this is eventually the plan. I was even thinking of having a permanent shop for trusted suppliers. So people who want to sell millions in volume can contact us and get on a special list so their listings are always in the client. Regardless, I'm trying to finish templates first so all the forms are user friendly.

In fact, once i finish an api, why cant we make a little program that does affiliate orders. So somehow a user can place ebay orders from other suppliers in BitBay that they would be willing to broker? This was we can wire through popular providers. IF there was a gateway. The thing is, it might be a little bit more expensive since the person reselling will want to mark up any item. However, it does populate the markets and i think thats kind of cool.

I have the idea. Why not inform alibaba/aliexpress and other such sellers about bitbay? Just sending them messages and emails? I think many of them could be happy to have another opportunity to sell, in addition with what they already have.