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Topic: [BitCentury] Metabank 120Gh 65nm Pre-Order Proxy [CLOSED] - page 5. (Read 79050 times)

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Hi guys,
Just thought I'd drop another update. In case you haven't noticed the page count of the 65nm Russian thread has increased by 100 (!). Sifting through all the trolling has taken many hours. A large portion of it is people bitching about only getting 96-105GH instead of the 120GH, the delivery time and number of units delivered per day (as of yesterday estimated to be somewhere around a total of 29 - not the initial 40 per day they mentioned). First, let me start off an update with an email that came directly from Metabank yesterday and that we've translated without any omissions as we want to be 100% transparent with our customers - you'll know what I mean when you are done reading it. Anything in brackets () are my comments. I've also highlighted key points.

METABANK EMAIL:
Quote
"Tomorrow we're receiving the first batch of soldered boards, on the 13th (of September) -- the last batch. In the best case we'll hand over the last device on the 15th. (no comments on worst case scenario).
HUGE REQUEST! Don't call us by phone with questions _when_ (can I get my unit?) ? It significantly distracts us from work, the phone is ringing since morning till deep night.
We'll surely call everyone and clarify the details of the handover (from Metabank to customers). If you have some wishes, send them to (our) bitcoin.ru mail.
All mails are being read! There is a lot of mails, therefore there simply isn't enough time to respond to everyone.
There is no possibility to hire a suitable person right now, later on we will certainly adjust our feedback.

(What) Can be written by mail:
 - (Specify your) reliable TK (probably meaning 'transport company') that can deliver 5kg per 1 device safe and sound;
 - (Specify if) You want to come personally to pick up the device;
 - For Moscow, pick up untested components (even more reason for us to test it now) :The case has to be glued together, fans and power supply to be fastened, boards to be connected using several wires, miner boards to be installed in specific order, figure out how to manage Raspberry Pi;
 - Cancel the delivery and take back Bitcoins (see below);

Password for ghash.io you will soon receive as a separate letter. (FYI, by default the machines will point to the mining pool ghash.io. People are already discussing how to reconfigure to other pools)

P.S. Regarding refunds:
Today a refund was requested and during the call I asked the reason. It won't pay off. Mu3antrop, whom I asked to clarify why, told me the same thing today. Turns out, the estimate assumed the difficulty would keep growing by 30% per round adjustment.
With such an estimate the device may not see ROI. If you also think that the difficulty will keep going up without slackening pace, I'm offering you to do the refund now, while there still is a possibility. (BitCentury unfortunately is not able to extend this refund offer to our customers - I will explain below)"

In regards to the last section on refunds, we regret to inform that unfortunately, it is too late for us (BitCentury) to extend this offer to our customers. As per our contract, the offer was available only for the first 29 days after purchase. At this point, we've incurred substantial operational costs that as it stands if we're lucky we'll either break even or make a small profit - we too were surprised at the abrupt end of sales by Metabank and had counted on selling many more units. In a way we were lucky we had just broken even on the day it ended - given our operational cost assumptions which thus far appear to be very close to our estimates. Any refunds now, even a small volume, would put us in negative financial territory.
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Quote
Chip simply doesn't work on 3gh (this is not necessarily true), and if you take it as 2.7gh [consider its real power] then apparently there wouldn't be enough chips for everyone.
Sounds to me like Metabank overestimated the performance of the chips, and thus didn't order enough of them and/or didn't order enough of the right resistors.  *shrugs* Oh well.  I'm glad they chose to ship as-is; better a slightly underperforming device now, than a proper device some undefined time in the future.

Thank you for the update digitalmagus!  My excitement shall continue...
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Ok, so after reading the plethora of posts today in the Russian 65nm thread it seems nearly all the questions we had, have already been either asked, mostly answered or sufficiently implied ;-) Here's what we were able to dig up in response to our own questions. Anything in ( ) brackets is my commentary.

When questions are asked about Metabank and legkodymov replies, he always replies with "we" and offers technical info nobody else has, so it may be safe to assume he works for Metabank or is heavily involved with them on the tech side of things.

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.3041979
"alexxy: 'in the meantime, metabank, as i was told today on phone, yesterday started sending the orders Wink"

then 2 posts down... from user fsb4000:

"1) The first shipping started yesterday, strange that the first buyers didn't spread the good riddance.
2) Expansion options are going to be similar for 120gh/s devices and more powerful ones (double devices). 120gh/s will have slots for 8 boards, but with 5 installed. The double units with 240gh/s devices there slots for 16 boards, but 10 are installed 10. So i'm not that much against double devices anymore. At least, as many extra boards can be installed.
3) power supplies are sized appropriately for the number of boards provided"


https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.3042096
"Sergauskazz: interesting... i paid for my devices in the first several hours, the page wasn't public yet, but i haven't gotten any emails or phone calls...Ok, I now called Timur, unloading of the first devices was confirmed. mine aren't ready yet, apprently, there must be more earlier comrades. waitin'."

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.3043321
"hooray (the user who posted the pics): Tonight at 1:11 AM (not a typo) near to metabank's office I got the first 240gh/sec devices (in one case [meaning double]) it happened that the first lucky owners are me and my colleagues. During the meeting we got a feeling that metabank guys are sleeping at the office, assembling the devices. They were very tired, but full of enthusiasm. Respect them for the work that they're doing, and that they aren't feeding the trolls on this forum instead.

After receiving the box, because of some weather-related circumstances, it took us long to reach the installation place and only started it [since this point he speaks of one device] early in the morning, then i fell asleep, that's why i'm writing just now.
At this moment the device is stabily generating 196gh/sec with 0.7% of rejects (chips aren't overclocked). As the guys at Metabank said, the software has to be improved a bit, updates will be published on the website (blog?). Apart from that, the web interface isn't working properly, they also promised to fix it in the upcoming days. (Then he posted pictures and the video)"



https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.3043424
"DarkSova: What is the temperature of aluminium heat sinks on chips when you tuch them, not overheating?
UserPC: Heat sinks aren't on chips, but on the rear side of the board (This is expected due to QFN48 chip package, heatsinks must go under not on top). Temperature of the chips is easily tolerable by a finger. I don't think it's more than 60 degrees. (So this sounds like the heatsinks are doing the job, but obviously chips aren't hashing at 3GH either.)"


https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.3043618
"integ: Is it possible to sleep nearby the device? (question about fan noise)
userPC: [Yes], normal pc tower makes more noise"



https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.3043977
"SectorZero: I doubt that just by software fix you can get 240GH from the current 196GH. Chip simply doesn't work on 3gh (this is not necessarily true), and if you take it as 2.7gh [consider its real power] then apparently there wouldn't be enough chips for everyone. maybe the buyers will get extra boards in the future. Otherwise it's not nice.
legkodymov: boards come in standard form without extra tuning. If you work on each board for an hour, you could get 3GH. If you're interested in that kind of a device, it'll be delivered LAST."




So, as per some of the above posts, it looks like Metabank has actually started delivering!, at least in low volume. Now before we all get very excited, note our first machine wasn't purchased until June 2nd, and Metabank started selling several days before that according to this spreadsheet put together by  fsb4000...
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AmyZBD2EHCEEdG9SdENBV0l4YnNuNklrdDItMTJwdlE#gid=0

... which is not entirely accurate of course, but a good effort none-the-less. You'll note we have 57 devices listed which is accurate, but they were not all ordered on the same day, but rather spread over about 10 days. Also, please note this spreadsheet was put together from forum posts that he was able to find, so in all likelihood there are even more orders not listed. If you do the math, before June 2nd there were at least 113 boxes ordered. So it may still be a while yet before we start getting ours, but I will be checking our email daily now, and will try to call metabank tomorrow to see if we can get any kind of ETA. Failing an ETA, as per legkodymov, he hopes to have all orders delivered over the next 3 weeks, so if they manage to achieve this timeline, this would put us at Sept 20th to receive the last boxes from them.

Again, I expect to be in Moscow well before the 20th (assuming the Visa/customs/consulate gods allow me), and I can tell you I plan to be there past the 20th, so we should be covered.
Cheers,
Luis




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Very exciting news!
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Ok, and now it looks like somebody from Metabank is blogging about their Bitfury products. Finally, some official info:

http://bitfury.metabank.ru/
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Thanks for that stripykitteh,

I've just checked my email, nothing in from Metabank.

As for, legkodymov (according to my translator 'oolex') appears to be a Metabank employee or contractor  but we are not 100% clear on this. Oolex explained that the previous guy we were getting forum info from "mu3" was having his questions answered by this "legkodymov". So at minimum legkodymov is  very well connected with Metabank, but we also couldn't find any "hey I'm legkodymov and I work for Metabank" type posts though.  These Russian guys sure like to keep everyone guessing, heh.

At any rate, legkodymov also stated here... https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.3045506
.... "Let's keep our fingers crossed that everything is going to be alright and in 3 weeks time we'll have everything unloaded (shipped)"

Oolex also analyzed the video, no major clues there, just observations of the color "like a new year spruce tree" (because PCBs are green), and "the case is made of plastic".

I've asked oolex to post some questions as follows. They should be up within the hour or so. Questions will be:

Quote
First, thank you very much for all the info you provided so far, much appreciated! Now for some questions:

1) Legjodymov - Can you please confirm for us your relationship with Metabank? Are you employee? contractor? friend? customer? something else?
2) By "unload everything in 3 weeks" do you mean you will start now, and be finished to deliver every box in 3 weeks, or that in 3 weeks you will be ready to ship all units, but not until then, or something else?
3) Can you tell us if we are to receive an email when our order is ready for pickup, or what is the procedure?
4) Will Metabank be telling us what is our order #?
5) Can you tell us who will get single boxes or double boxes? Do we have to email to make special request?
6) Will single boxes be 1/2 the size of double box, or single and double ship in the same box?
7) If software modifications cannot achieve 120GH, then will Metabank add extra blade to make up for lack of speed?

Thank you for you time.
legendary
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It looks as though some early orders have already been delivered:

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.3043321

https://www.dropbox.com/s/v93tfala2x9zykf/P1040504.JPG
https://www.dropbox.com/s/nfhcgazavzcykeu/P1040503.JPG
https://www.dropbox.com/s/p0lq2orxjkiths8/P1040502.JPG
https://www.dropbox.com/s/8jhmred71ntoftv/miner.png
http://youtu.be/Cs_jdbISpOo

This was a 240GHash order. Note that there are 10 cards, not 11.

The only downside is that it appears the device as shipped is about 18.5% under the claimed hash rate. This owner was getting 196GHash stable. As well as I can tell from Google Translate there is talk of updating the driver software to improve this.


legendary
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Lastly, I'm still not clear on the PC connection type. What we can see in picture #72 on the bottom right is a Raspberri Pi, and those have both USB and Ethernet connections, but not sure which one(s) the software will support. In Picture#73, I don't see any cables coming out of the Ethernet port, so not sure if this unit was even plugged in or what.

Sheesh, I actually own a Pi and I didn't notice that! So it looks like it will be standalone.
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Looking at the test data from their previous update, they're getting 22 GH/s per card.  That's 242 GH/s with 11 cards; matches up perfectly with the double unit.  Looks like us single unit guys will luck out.  They'll need to use 6 cards, which is 132 GH/s  Cool

Quote
Lastly, I'm still not clear on the PC connection type. What we can see in picture #72 on the bottom right is a Raspberri Pi, and those have both USB and Ethernet connections, but not sure which one(s) the software will support. In Picture#73, I don't see any cables coming out of the Ethernet port, so not sure if this unit was even plugged in or what.
I can't imagine they're going to connect to a PC.  As far as I'm aware, the only working mining code for Bitfury chips is in a fork of cgminer, built specifically for the RasPi.  I'm sure they're using that, and thus these units are self contained, and will only require ethernet.

Great work, metabank!
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Thanks for the update Luis. I wasn't aware that there was a 'double' unit available, which I agree this looks like.

A friend with an electronics background said that the silver (tantalum) capacitors are a higher-spec than the black and orange ones. Given the reports that metabank were sourcing components from different suppliers I guess the had to grab what they could. He also thought there would be room in the case for 3 80mm fans, though only 2 are visible in the pictures.

Still way too early to pop champagne corks yet but so far, so good.
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We will evaluate the best way to secure the blades once we have a box in hand, but I am definitely open to suggestions on how to minimize the blades coming lose. I am quite aware of the avalon shipping horror stories, so, I too would like to avoid those!

Quote
Yeah Sad
such a box is not able to withstand a travel around the world, those cards with relatively heavy heatsinks will come loose and destroy themselves.
I hope BitCentury ships them disassembled.
spiccioli
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First,
Thanks to fsb4000 for the post with the links to the pictures, you beat us to it Smiley

16 boards with 8 chips = 96 chips. Anyone knows the specs at which the chip will/should run according to metabank?

I have a feeling the pictures shown are for the "double" machine where they posted about it in the 65nm thread before (sorry, I hadn't mentioned it before). So by double I think they mean 240 GH/s, which kind of makes sense since I am seeing 11 blades in this one, although some of them look different (silver vs beige/black capacitors), so not sure what's going on there - probably this is an early prototype with different cards.

The picture on the Metabank.ru/asic site shows 8 ASIC chips per board, and above that it states they are rated at 3GH/sec each. So I would extrapolate that to mean 8 asics * 3GH/s = 24GH/blade. So you only need 5 blades @ 24 GH each to get 120GH/sec.  So I seriously doubt they will ship a box with around 11 blades for a 120GH product.

They also mention up to 1.6W/GH (not clear at what voltage that is though). So at 120GH, in theory it'd be a max of 192 Watts just for the ASICs alone, not including power required for all the other "doodads" on the PCBs. But should be well under 300W, maybe even less than 250W, but we'll find out I suppose. If the watts per chip is on the low end (0.85W/GH) or aprox 1/2 that, then obviously it'd be closer to 100-125W's.

From our own tests a month ago (see bottom of this blog post: https://bitcentury.io/blog/initial-testing-of-bitfury-asic ) , when we tested above 2.4 GH (last entry at the bottom), the chip temperature hit 80 Celsius and kept rising, and power consumption hit 2.52 Watts/chip but the hashrate was unknown. We didn't wait around to find out the hashing speed because we had limited alpha chips and didn't want to kill any with excess heat (we had no heat sink for these tests); but if we assume 3W per chip for 3GH/s, then with 40 chips (8 chips * 5 boards), we're looking at 120 Watts + power required for all the other PCB components etc. So highly likely under 200W.  This is all educated speculation though ;-)

Yeah, but bitfury's chips can be run at different voltages. There had been talk about running them at a higher voltage to get more performance per chip, more like 2.9GHash/chip and 170W for the device. That's why I'd like to know whether this is really the metabank device or not.

There is a very high chance this is indeed the Metabank device. I base that guess on the look of the blade PCBs. They look nearly identical to the one they posted on their site:
https://metabank.ru/images/asic/asic_board.jpg

You'll note the latest pictures show a green PCB instead of white, but the huge black/beige capacitors are a dead give away.

As for whether the blades are soldered on the master board or sockets, your guess is as good as mine - I can't quite tell from the pictures. My concern looking at this box is that I don't see any screws for opening it up, so hopefully they don't glue it shut, in case we need to open them to properly secure the blades before shipping. Further, I wonder if those two fans in back of picture #73 are going to be providing sufficient airflow to run these things for prolonged periods at room temperature.

Lastly, I'm still not clear on the PC connection type. What we can see in picture #72 on the bottom right is a Raspberri Pi, and those have both USB and Ethernet connections, but not sure which one(s) the software will support. In Picture#73, I don't see any cables coming out of the Ethernet port, so not sure if this unit was even plugged in or what.

The good news is that if these box dimensions are in milimeters as per the PDF file, then the box is aprox 1/2 the size (for the double hashing unit!) or less of an avalon with twice the hashing power and 1/2 or much less the power consumption. Not sure if they just made 1 box for single and double hashing units, or whether they made a smaller box for the single (120GH) hashing units.
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The last picture of Metabank's proto PCB had white soldermask ... so, who knows.  Whatever it is, I want it Tongue

Quote
It looks like those boards are hard soldered to the "master board".
Looks sockets to me.
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It would be good to know whether this is metabank's unit or some other project's.

I can only see little fans so this looks like a low-power, low-hash per chip, minimal-cooling system.

Bitfury's chips are very low power, those units should be rated at 120 GH/s and should need as little as 100 W.

spiccioli

Yeah, but bitfury's chips can be run at different voltages. There had been talk about running them at a higher voltage to get more performance per chip, more like 2.9GHash/chip and 170W for the device. That's why I'd like to know whether this is really the metabank device or not.
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nec sine labore
It would be good to know whether this is metabank's unit or some other project's.

I can only see little fans so this looks like a low-power, low-hash per chip, minimal-cooling system.

Bitfury's chips are very low power, those units should be rated at 120 GH/s and should need as little as 100 W.

spiccioli
legendary
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It would be good to know whether this is metabank's unit or some other project's.

I can only see little fans so this looks like a low-power, low-hash per chip, minimal-cooling system.
legendary
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nec sine labore

It looks like those boards are hard soldered to the "master board". I see a lot of damaged units after (bad-ass-)russian parcel service..


Yeah Sad

such a box is not able to withstand a travel around the world, those cards with relatively heavy heatsinks will come loose and destroy themselves.

I hope BitCentury ships them disassembled.

spiccioli

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..yeah
Nice Smiley

When you have a look inside, it really looks bad-ass-russian. huge capacitors Cheesy. Why are there so many different capacitors on the same spot for different boards? Odd.

It looks like those boards are hard soldered to the "master board". I see a lot of damaged units after (bad-ass-)russian parcel service..

16 boards with 8 chips = 96 chips. Anyone knows the specs at which the chip will/should run according to metabank?
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The 'pizza box'  pictures DDN posted above are what you would get if you ordered the 3,000 chip reel of Bitfury chips. DDN is not related to BitCentury, but thanks for showing us those pictures DDN. I hadn't seen the reel pictures yet.
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