Topic: Bitcoin 20MB Fork - page 14. (Read 154796 times)

They have a wonderfully simple system in the UK for handling the £50 note, which is the biggest denomination worth about $75. They are almost 100% impossible to spend. I've only had three pass through my hands and wandered from shop to shop trying to spend them and they just tell you to go away.

I can guarantee you that it will exist, long before the fork even happens.

really???

well i am in germany and here it is definitely not the case.
and this works? the cashier sends a list to fincen or what? for ANY note he received?

is this immediate? as in the cashier can refuse to take the bill or has to call the police or whatever?

i can pay with a 1000€ bill without the cashier writing down the serial...

sounds unbelieveable

edit: btw this is exactly was fungible means... fungible means any coin is the same... when there is a sn which makes some bad then the dollar is in fact not fungible anymore.

You sorta answered your own question there. Since when does limiting the supply of something lead to a decrease in its price?

But that's not my answer. My answer is this: because MPEx will not accept altcoins; especially not those promoted by CIA muppets. That's somewhere between 300k and 400k that will be dumped into the USGavincoin market in addition to 3.6k daily.

Have you noticed that, in the USA, whenever you pay for something with a $50 or $100 bill, the cashier has to record the serial number of the bill?  

Guess what?  Those serial numbers are being compared to a 'blacklist' of bills known to be counterfeited, stolen, or otherwise involved in crimes.  So, no, I don't think blacklisting will affect bitcoin fungibility substantially more than it already affects dollar fungibility.  

What people are scaremongering about here is a strawman version of blacklists, where the coins cannot be spent and are therefore worthless.  The actual USA policy about blacklists, with existing money, does not normally affect its fungibility.  Instead, it is about determining where investigative efforts need to be directed.  

Is anybody here from a country where the strawman version of blacklists has actually been implemented against high-denomination currency?  

How about a miner, or a group of miners, broadcast v4 blocks, or even go as far as actually playing along with the fork, for the sole purpose of artificially inflating the exchange rate of gavincoin?

For an actor, or a group, with a reasonable chunk of hashpower, that would be a pretty efficient way to manipulate the cross-chain market and make a killing in the process.

It seems to me the whole concept of blacklisting coins requires the institution of centralized authority that can and will abuse their power to award and withhold bitcoin. The determination of whether a given coin is blacklisted or not will be a human judgment outside of the raw computations of the blockchain, and as such subject to corruption.

I suggest advocates or those intrigued by the possibilities of blacklisting do a poll and see how comfortable people would be choosing to use a coin with such "features" compared to one that does not. I expect that you'll find people would be very skittish about using such a coin because of the perceived risk of being wronged by the controlling authority, compared to those who would be hopeful of recovering from being victimized by thieves or whatever.

And after a few horror stories of government abuse, or simply just excess "red tape" by the authorities trying to prevent abuse of the blacklisting system, any significant support would go up in smoke.

May, MAYBE, in a future world dominated by cryptocurrency, with several dozen major cryptos in use (optimized for different financial functions such as B2B transfers, daily use accounts, long-term high security storage, tax payments, etc.) they may be a market demand for a coin with blacklisting controls and operated by a trusted and competent central authority. But I would expect it to be a niche product, definitely not for mainstream use.

The "because reasons" you're attempting to gloss over here is "to make more money." The result of a fork will be much like the creation of an altcoin where funds at the moment of fork are mirrored onto the new chain. From that point onward the economics that govern altcoins takes over. It's called "pool hopping" and it's currently a thing; it isn't some far-fetched pipe dream of mine. Miners/hashers/whatever will change targets to optimize profit per energy unit spent. If there is a large demand for real bitcoin and little demand for USGavincoin, even if 95% 80% 51% (lol why not because democracy!) of the blocks previously declared allegiance to the fork, hashing power will shift from the latter to the former.

i think its just what he does, throwing random numbers knowing that 95% is less likely considering decentralization.

The ones "hashing" (not mining) have more power in that relationship. If a "hasher" doesn't like the version his pool is branding, he can just move to a different pool. What you "don't seem to understand" is that "discussion" and "conscious choice" among poor people is not what causes these kinds of changes. The investors that brought you the 300 dollar bitcoin will not abide USGavincoin, and changetippers alone cannot make up the difference.

If your money is stolen at gunpoint it's your responsibility to get it back. You can't expect Bitcoin to help you get your money back because of some magical anti-theft function.
With that said, I don't see what blacklists has to do with the topic at hand.

is this also true in your jurisdication:
(both cases assume you can proof that you did not know about the theft)

 - you buy a stolen car, police finds you and take it back to the rightful owner
 - you sell something to a robber but you dont have to give the money back

thats the different of money vs goods and thats why it is important that money is fungible.

most coins you own (i mean fiat) were already used to buy drugs and have certainly been stolen at some point in the past. do you think a merchant should refuse to take them from you? is this true in your country?

(also: please explain to me HOW do you want to implement blacklists - i dont see a way which would work without multiple forks running in parallel)

If a thief is caught and still has the money then should they be forced to give it back?  If the thief gave it to their brother who still has it then should the brother be forced to give it back?  If the thief "bought" lunch from their brother-in-law who happens to own a restaurant then should the brother-in-law be forced to give it back?  When is the stolen money no longer rightfully the original owner's?

blacklisting people is a different story than blacklisting specific coins.

where you every in a store and heard a cashier saying: no i dont take this coin, please give me another one?

It cant work, sonner or later every address will contain some link to blacklisted coins. So basically only fresh mined coins will be able to buy your starbuck

Either way, you're renaming the real bitcoin after MP, and that in itself is already a victory for him.

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You. Are. Wrong. How many times do I have to explain this you damned dirty government agent.

You are confusing the mechanism by which the fork is triggered, with the economic pressure put on miners afterwards. You are confusing the pre-fork with the post-fork. It costs miners nothing to brand their blocks "version 4," whether they are actually going to adopt the new rules or not. It is an entirely different story when they start minting blocks that other nodes cannot validate. In the post-fork scenario, there will be two different versions of bitcoin for sale at two different prices. Miners will choose the most profitable coin to mine, just like altcoin miners shift around to different pools depending on changing difficulties and prices.

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Don't even worry about it. Such a thing would only ever be enforced on full nodes and not by block validation. That means certain companies/exchanges may decide to steal your coins because they came from a "blacklisted" parent output, and those companies will quickly discover that nobody wants to risk sending them any money. It's a non-issue; these companies won't stay in business long.

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Oh GTFO you UnSavoryGarnish.

"I know it looks like I sent money into that exchange, but I was actually held at gun point so please reverse it!"

Let's start using social security numbers as our addresses while we're at it. So stupid.

Because you say so? I don't agree. Blacklists take into account only specific addresses. Taking into account the history of the coins is simply retarded and will be done only by those that do not understand Bitcoin.


You are wrong. We already have blacklists when it comes to businesses and to people that made financials schemes. Every time someone opens a bank account they are verified in banks own black lists and banks share their black list database with other banks.

If you own a company and do maintain a business relation with another company that does tax evasion or does anything illegal you are not punished in any way. Stop with this blacklist nonsense!

that would mean that if you get btc from someone which are stolen from someone else that you would have to give it back to the original owner.

under that circumstances i'd never accept btc, because where should i know from that they are not stolen?

^ thats the reason why it is important that money is fungible

(for the people arguing about miner blacklists: by whom? usa? europe? russia? if every miner has a different blacklist nothing would change and any transaction would go through someday. if its a client-side blacklist which refuse blocks we will have country-specific forks)

Even if money (BTC, etc.) is stolen at gunpoint?  Blacklisting stolen money is a marvelous idea.

To prepare for a potential life-threatening situation, one could have some money readily available but more not readily available.  The thief wants your fungible money; killing you is not their top priority.  Accessing your safe money should put your assailant at risk of capture.

Maybe, maybe not...  but maybe also some caution is warranted when the protocol is shifted to make it so?
The result could be that we end up with either: it is government mining, or no mining.

When the door is closed to private individuals (and it is only businesses), businesses MUST register or be in violation of the law and risk seizure of all assets.  This is true most anywhere you stand on the planet.