Bitcoin and gold hoarders | Bitcointalksearch.org

robamichael

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Quote from: giszmo on February 05, 2013, 05:09:57 AM

Quote from: debianlinux on February 04, 2013, 08:16:58 PM

Quote from: robamichael on February 04, 2013, 08:10:48 PM

Does this mean you are 100% invested in them? No diversification? No hedging of risks?

aka (gasp) a hoarder

Cheesy

If I have 100% in $$, am I a hoarder?

We are all hoarders by the strict definition.

I think the point being made here is that diversification among currencies is usually (always?) a good idea.

Diversifying your BTC with the historical juggernauts Au and Ag is a wise move, in my opinion.

cypherdoc

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Quote from: JustJake on February 05, 2013, 01:20:46 AM

I guess I want to say about owning bitcoin for me is that it is not my attempt to hedge against the dollar. It is simply a great idea with incredible potential. When it all comes down to it I think the best hedge against the dollar is the quality of my work output. All the rest (cash, stock, gold, bonds, silver, real estate) can betray you as it has many people in the past.

this part is really good.

giszmo

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Quote from: debianlinux on February 04, 2013, 08:16:58 PM

Quote from: robamichael on February 04, 2013, 08:10:48 PM

Does this mean you are 100% invested in them? No diversification? No hedging of risks?

aka (gasp) a hoarder

Cheesy

If I have 100% in $$, am I a hoarder?

giszmo

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Quote from: robamichael on February 04, 2013, 08:10:48 PM

Quote from: giszmo on February 04, 2013, 07:49:05 PM

Quote from: robamichael on February 04, 2013, 07:07:15 PM

We must at least admit that Bitcoin is very young, and therefore any investments in are highly speculative.

Gold we know must go up, as it has proven to adhere to the fundamentals of money for thousands of years. With the amount of fiat currency inflation occurring around the world, gold will behave in a very predictable way. It has a track record that cannot be ignored.

That's not to say that the Bitcoin will behave differently, but it is certainly more prone to unknown risk - a virus, a hacker, manipulation (even a poor billionaire could do this right now), etc.

Any manipulation a billionaire or a millionaire could do would drive the price up. Pump and dump and getting rich doing so does not work by only suggesting a bubble by buying some bitcoins. You would have to also announce some services, get some names convinced the next big thing is around the corner etc.

Is Bitcoin really a risk? Who should destroy it? Governments still have a window of opportunity that is not closing for some months if not years to come but if govs really wanted to, why wait? The longer they wait the more businesses will get mad at them. Taking away our 300M$ toy is one thing. Taking away a 300G$ toy later is a different league although the Fed is printing this amount every 6 months.

Virus? Hacker? These are known issues that are a constant in the IT business. It's the same old arms race and the more we care about other people's wallets being secure the smaller the rewards will be for hackers and less attractive the bitcoin will be for them.

It seems that you think none of these things are real risks to Bitcoin, at any magnitude.

Does this mean you are 100% invested in them? No diversification? No hedging of risks?

100% is a problem cause I need to have fiat for 2 weeks spendings but other than that I was at that point, yes. Well, actually I was down with fiat to some $100 at some point but I consider that an accident cause I failed to sell some bitcoins in time.

DoomDumas

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Bitcoin

Send me your sticker, I'll cut-off the Gold/Silver part and stick the rest on my truck Wink

JustJake

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Numisalis - Physical Tradable Bitcoin

I think one of the things that I value in currency is liquidity. This is one of the things bitcoin has over gold and silver in spades. It is one of the reasons that I have much more cash and cash equivalents than gold. I value the flexibility and rapid deployment. I know that government policies have shaped society so that this kind of thinking is customary (tax codes and whatnot). I also think that bitcoin is young enough to still be a speculative venture. I only still own about 20% of what I have mined and have sold off the rest to be assured I come out ahead of costs.

I guess I want to say about owning bitcoin for me is that it is not my attempt to hedge against the dollar. It is simply a great idea with incredible potential. When it all comes down to it I think the best hedge against the dollar is the quality of my work output. All the rest (cash, stock, gold, bonds, silver, real estate) can betray you as it has many people in the past.

debianlinux

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Quote from: robamichael on February 04, 2013, 08:10:48 PM

Does this mean you are 100% invested in them? No diversification? No hedging of risks?

aka (gasp) a hoarder

Cheesy

robamichael

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Quote from: giszmo on February 04, 2013, 07:49:05 PM

Quote from: robamichael on February 04, 2013, 07:07:15 PM

We must at least admit that Bitcoin is very young, and therefore any investments in are highly speculative.

Gold we know must go up, as it has proven to adhere to the fundamentals of money for thousands of years. With the amount of fiat currency inflation occurring around the world, gold will behave in a very predictable way. It has a track record that cannot be ignored.

That's not to say that the Bitcoin will behave differently, but it is certainly more prone to unknown risk - a virus, a hacker, manipulation (even a poor billionaire could do this right now), etc.

Any manipulation a billionaire or a millionaire could do would drive the price up. Pump and dump and getting rich doing so does not work by only suggesting a bubble by buying some bitcoins. You would have to also announce some services, get some names convinced the next big thing is around the corner etc.

Is Bitcoin really a risk? Who should destroy it? Governments still have a window of opportunity that is not closing for some months if not years to come but if govs really wanted to, why wait? The longer they wait the more businesses will get mad at them. Taking away our 300M$ toy is one thing. Taking away a 300G$ toy later is a different league although the Fed is printing this amount every 6 months.

Virus? Hacker? These are known issues that are a constant in the IT business. It's the same old arms race and the more we care about other people's wallets being secure the smaller the rewards will be for hackers and less attractive the bitcoin will be for them.

It seems that you think none of these things are real risks to Bitcoin, at any magnitude.

Does this mean you are 100% invested in them? No diversification? No hedging of risks?

giszmo

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Activity: 1862

Merit: 1105

WalletScrutiny.com

Quote from: robamichael on February 04, 2013, 07:07:15 PM

We must at least admit that Bitcoin is very young, and therefore any investments in are highly speculative.

Gold we know must go up, as it has proven to adhere to the fundamentals of money for thousands of years. With the amount of fiat currency inflation occurring around the world, gold will behave in a very predictable way. It has a track record that cannot be ignored.

That's not to say that the Bitcoin will behave differently, but it is certainly more prone to unknown risk - a virus, a hacker, manipulation (even a poor billionaire could do this right now), etc.

Any manipulation a billionaire or a millionaire could do would drive the price up. Pump and dump and getting rich doing so does not work by only suggesting a bubble by buying some bitcoins. You would have to also announce some services, get some names convinced the next big thing is around the corner etc.

Is Bitcoin really a risk? Who should destroy it? Governments still have a window of opportunity that is not closing for some months if not years to come but if govs really wanted to, why wait? The longer they wait the more businesses will get mad at them. Taking away our 300M$ toy is one thing. Taking away a 300G$ toy later is a different league although the Fed is printing this amount every 6 months.

Virus? Hacker? These are known issues that are a constant in the IT business. It's the same old arms race and the more we care about other people's wallets being secure the smaller the rewards will be for hackers and less attractive the bitcoin will be for them.

robamichael

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Activity: 144

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We must at least admit that Bitcoin is very young, and therefore any investments in it are highly speculative.

Gold we know must go up, as it has proven to adhere to the fundamentals of money for thousands of years. With the amount of fiat currency inflation occurring around the world, gold will behave in a very predictable way. It has a track record that cannot be ignored.

That's not to say that the Bitcoin will behave differently, but it is certainly more prone to unknown risk - a virus, a hacker, manipulation (even a poor billionaire could do this right now), etc.

axus

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Wouldn't that bumper sticker make your house a target for thieves? That's a good thing about Bitcoin, it's only vulnerable to a different kind of thief.

ShireSilver

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Quote from: JustJake on February 04, 2013, 11:46:57 AM

There are some good points brought up by posters here. I think one of the things that I am most looking for is a way to market bitcoin that makes the most sense. I like what ShireSilver has to say about marketing bitcoin as easy to use for businesses. Frictionless and low to no fee transactions are a huge selling point if someone with clout can standardize and push some simple POS hardware.

LOL, I just popped over to my local expenso-mart to get some stuff I shouldn't eat. When I was paying, with my card, I asked if paying with credit or debit was cheaper (figuring whatever saves the merchant more means less to the big banks). He mentioned that it depends, and started talking fees. I mentioned that bitcoins have really low fees, and when I mentioned no charge-backs he got real interested. I just brought it up in casual conversation while I was the only one in the store (so he had time to talk). It also helped when I mentioned that I knew of maybe 50 people in the area that want to buy things with bitcoins. No talk about sound money or my libertarian/anarchist beliefs, just plain talk about the benefits it would bring his business.

Then when I got home I posted it on the local bitcoin FB page so the guys can all give him a visit. I imagine if a dozen or so folks walk in, grab a coke, and ask if they can pay in bitcoins then he'll be a good prospect and might just come on board.

giszmo

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Quote from: ruggedman_dan on February 04, 2013, 11:34:49 AM

Quote from: giszmo on February 04, 2013, 08:51:52 AM

Quote from: ruggedman_dan on February 04, 2013, 04:00:15 AM

When I see someone rocking a big chain made of Bitcoins then I will say gold is pointless.

I would say the bitcoin blockchain pretty much rocks, doesn't it?

Yeah, no doubt. The blockchain is cool, but I'm gonna need the block-watch to go with it.

block-watch

JustJake

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I feel like that Penny-Arcade comic. "I am going to the internet to find people who agree with me!"

There are some good points brought up by posters here. I think one of the things that I am most looking for is a way to market bitcoin that makes the most sense. I like what ShireSilver has to say about marketing bitcoin as easy to use for businesses. Frictionless and low to no fee transactions are a huge selling point if someone with clout can standardize and push some simple POS hardware.

One thing I am still looking for and thought I was going to get with Mt.Gox is someplace where I can use bitcoin as a vehicle for currency conversion. If banks were removed from the picture then speculating the currency market would be much more fun and profitable.

I guess it is a good thing that after all that bitcoin has become, there is still a lot of potential.

P.S. Looking back I find it ironic that my OP is down on gold but I geeked out and bought Casascius coin. I guess I am only human and still like to be able to hold something in my hand.

ruggedman_dan

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Quote from: giszmo on February 04, 2013, 08:51:52 AM

Quote from: ruggedman_dan on February 04, 2013, 04:00:15 AM

When I see someone rocking a big chain made of Bitcoins then I will say gold is pointless.

I would say the bitcoin blockchain pretty much rocks, doesn't it?

Yeah, no doubt. The blockchain is cool, but I'm gonna need the block-watch to go with it.

giszmo

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Quote from: ruggedman_dan on February 04, 2013, 04:00:15 AM

When I see someone rocking a big chain made of Bitcoins then I will say gold is pointless.

I would say the bitcoin blockchain pretty much rocks, doesn't it?

Prattler

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Quote from: JustJake on February 03, 2013, 07:23:04 PM

1. Gold and silver are boring as crap. They are a cumbersome burden hard to transfer and divide.
2. Bitcoin is levels more "honest" than gold and silver. No transparency on total supply. You have to trust a distributor or minter that you are getting the product you think you are. Bitcoin is pure as math.
3. Calling gold and silver "honest" money makes me sound like a libertarian nutter.

I agree with everything!

In addition, to the new generation that grew up with internet, MMO play gold is better money than real gold.

ShireSilver

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I'm with the OP on this even though I sell silver and gold products that alleviate some of his issues with it. My twentieth gram gold card is really easy to carry in your wallet and is worth around $4 or less than 0.25btc.

A lot of goldbug types are just too rooted in "intrinsic value" and "tangible wealth" fallacies. The smarter ones will see bitcoin for what it is; even if, like me, it takes a year to realize it. In other words, don't waste your time on targeting them as some will come along without help and the rest won't until they're dragged into it.

But we really should be marketing bitcoins to a more general public, highlighting the added value that bitcoins bring. How does it make things easier for merchants and other end-users? Don't worry about its anti-inflation properties or its current value, but how it helps build commerce and enables lower-friction trading.

I'm working on modifying my own marketing from being too "sound money" oriented to being more "here's how it can help you".

Puppet

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Quote from: robamichael on February 03, 2013, 09:25:02 PM

Gold and silver have been used for 5000+ years...

And they wont be around as storage of value for another 500 years. Maybe not even 50. Do you realize how much gold and silver is orbiting nearby in space? De-orbit one single asteroid, make it splash down in some not too deep sea, and you potentially have more gold than exists in all of the earths crust. Sounds like science fiction, but its one the things Planetary Resources and Deep Space Industries plan on doing. Google it.

Mageant

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Quote from: xxjs on February 03, 2013, 09:18:06 PM

Yep, historically, gold has been difficult to counterfeit, as there have been no metal as heavy as gold and less valuable. This is now changed with Wolfram (tungsten). It is about the same specific weight as gold, but it is far cheaper. We have all seen reports of the gold bar with wolfram rods inserted. But I have not seen any reports on fake gold coins in the wild. Have they been spotted?

Maybe this here:
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2012-09-24/get-your-fake-tungsten-filled-gold-coins-here

Topic: Bitcoin and gold hoarders (Read 2592 times)