Bitcoin assets cannot be blocked - is that helping terrorists? - page 2.

BITCOIN4X

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Quote from: uneps on September 11, 2021, 04:55:05 AM

I think terrorists only use dollars from, not Bitcoin. The reason is simple Bitcoin is not a liquid currency, like the dollar.
Bitcoin is difficult to use for transactions, especially in countries that have minimal technological infrastructure.
Bitcoin is difficult to use quickly. In addition, acceptance of digital money is very limited in regions such as the Middle East and North Africa, where terrorist groups are most active.

No, I have a feeling you really don't know that the people behind the terrorist name are intelligent people as well as very tech savvy. Since bitcoin is a currency, it is possible to use it for illegal acts such as terrorist financing, money laundering, and many other things. Regardless of whether the country supports cryptocurrencies or not, bitcoin transaction can never be prevented by the government. Regulation can't really prevent bitcoin transaction from being broadcast even if you're in a country with minimal technology infrastructure.

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Bitcoin is very safe because it is not associated with financial institutions or institutions and transactions are carried out in a decentralized manner. It protects its users because this digital money system eliminates personal data.
Simply.I think terrorists only use dollars from, not Bitcoin. The reason is simple Bitcoin is not a liquid currency, like the dollar.
Bitcoin is difficult to use for transactions, especially in countries that have minimal technological infrastructure.
Bitcoin is difficult to use quickly. In addition, acceptance of digital money is very limited in regions such as the Middle East and North Africa, where terrorist groups are most active.

LUCKMCFLY

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This is a very important point, if we take into account that the biggest scams worldwide have been with FIAT money, BTC does not figure or have any sustainable comparison knowing that many governments and banks are enemies of BTC, the point here is, yes BTC it is not taken into account and is not valid in all countries, you cannot be blamed for it. In case the money had not been blocked, access it from the source, unless the private key is handled by more than 1 person and needs the authorization of those who handle it, it is obvious, this is a way to move a lot of money But due to the global policies of governments and banks, that money remains as if it were in the air. The flaw is, that money is not deflationary, they can continue printing and that problem is solved.

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Quote from: mu_enrico on September 06, 2021, 01:50:10 PM

While it's true that if the transaction is valid, it will be confirmed. But it's at the protocol level.
In the real world, I'm afraid the dynamic is a lot more complicated than that. BTC tx can be traced, and to cash out a lot of money, it's difficult to move a pile load of cash with no one notice (yes, they still need to cash out). Thus, for small scale terrorists, maybe they still can use BTC, but for the whales, it is as painful as other methods (or perhaps more painful). It helps small scale criminals/terrorist the same as they use cash. So no, BTC isn't helping terrorists.

This is a good observation, if anything they could be using bitcoin for small transactions as any big transaction even if it is being done on-chain it is going to bring attention about what is happening there, and if the coins are at some point converted to cash then there is going to be a record of that somewhere in an exchange, so this theory that bitcoin is helping criminals is actually being overblown, something that does not surprise me taking into account how afraid of bitcoin banks and governments really are.

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Quote from: paxmao on September 06, 2021, 05:21:12 PM

For you and me (well, I do not know you, just guessing that), it may be difficult to cash out. We probably would be thinking of local bitcoins or an exchange. However, when you are talking big money, you can certainly look for an over the counter partner for the case and believe me it is not going to take long to find one. If you think of it, some countries did not retire their embassies from Kabul so it may even be organised via a partner state. Even if transactions can be traced, that type of funds cannot be blocked an will always find a friendly hand.

You mean bigger money will be easier to cash out? I don't think that's correct (but I don't know for sure lol). For a small amount of money, as you said, cashing out won't be a problem with local bitcoin or exchanges. If terrorist want to cash out big money, since bank wire transfer isn't an option, I imagine it would be like face-to-face transaction in the movie where one party betrays the other (and the shooting begins). I didn't argue about the government capability of blocking such tx at the protocol level (valid tx with sufficient fees will be mined, that's the rule), but more about the practicality of using BTC for funding terrorists.

Chato1977

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Quote from: paxmao on August 30, 2021, 04:11:32 PM

While most of the illegal activities in the world take place in USD and I am far from saying that bitcoin is actually worse than any other asset on that regard, I have read many news about the American withdrawal from Afghanistan and how the US government froze some billions of USD belonging to the previous government or perhaps (debatable) to the country itself. Obviously, this could not have happened if those assets were held in bitcoin or other crypto. It seems that not everything is good in self-sovereignty?

BTW, this is not a statement saying that Taliban are terrorist, just wondering about some other cases in which states were clearly linked to terror.

On the other hands this also a great idea that Government is not always over everything .

because indeed that this is hard for them to freeze assets from bad elements but also we knew how crooks run in government and this also sometimes leads to abusing .

so best that there is crypto in which cannot be harmed for those occasions .

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Quote from: SquallLeonhart on September 05, 2021, 01:23:55 PM

Quote from: Wawa2013 on September 05, 2021, 04:10:56 AM

This is how smart Bitcoin haters are, they provide inaccurate information and mislead a lot of people. Bitcoin will always get accused of helping terrorists, maybe because Bitcoin is decentralized and the government can't control it, then raise the accusation that Bitcoin is widely used for illegal activities. Though if we do the research properly, and get information from reliable sources, will find the fact that the number of terrorists who use fiat far more. Because terrorists existed before 2009, when there was no Bitcoin, that many terrorists use to carry out illegal activities is fiat.
So it's actually not true with the information that says Bitcoin helps terrorists. There are indeed some terrorists who use Bitcoin, but very few of them. Many terrorists until now use fiat more for their illegal activities.

It is so much more in fiat then bitcoin, that's true. Bad people use tons more in fiat then they use in bitcoin, bitcoin is probably just the low level drug dealer that sells weed on darknet and that's about it, the transaction is done in bitcoin or some other coin like monero, and then they send the product after the buyer sends the coins, then dealer sends the drugs and it's done.

This is a very very small time amount compared to all the bad people out there dealing in millions of dollars every day, there are billionaire bad people in the world, none of them uses crypto. Long story short they should fix the fiat world helping the criminals before they start to bark about how crypto helps the criminals or gives them a way out, because even though it is anonymous it is not untraceable and that means if there is a bad guy eventually you will catch them.

Actually this problem is due to lack of education to the entire population in the world about Bitcoin, so they only get information from the government.
Most of the information the government provides is wrong, so in my environment very few people know about Bitcoin. Those who know Bitcoin also
think Bitcoin is bad, so it's our job who know the truth about Bitcoin at least try to educate those closest to us first. That can help a little bit to
reduce misconceptions about Bitcoin.

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Quote from: paxmao on August 30, 2021, 04:11:32 PM

BTW, this is not a statement saying that Taliban are terrorist, just wondering about some other cases in which states were clearly linked to terror.

Im aint surprised with these kind of discussions in talking about money laundering or terrorist funding and come to think off that if its possible with fiat then how much more on using up Bitcoin?

Anonymity does really have its specific role when it comes on making transactions anonymous which is the best recipe on funding something neither could be a terrorist or simply passing up money or funds
to your loved ones and so on.

Does it really matter? Even if you do but still theres nothing you can do.

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Quote from: mu_enrico on September 06, 2021, 01:50:10 PM

While it's true that if the transaction is valid, it will be confirmed. But it's at the protocol level.
In the real world, I'm afraid the dynamic is a lot more complicated than that. BTC tx can be traced, and to cash out a lot of money, it's difficult to move a pile load of cash with no one notice (yes, they still need to cash out). Thus, for small scale terrorists, maybe they still can use BTC, but for the whales, it is as painful as other methods (or perhaps more painful). It helps small scale criminals/terrorist the same as they use cash. So no, BTC isn't helping terrorists.

For you and me (well, I do not know you, just guessing that), it may be difficult to cash out. We probably would be thinking of local bitcoins or an exchange. However, when you are talking big money, you can certainly look for an over the counter partner for the case and believe me it is not going to take long to find one. If you think of it, some countries did not retire their embassies from Kabul so it may even be organised via a partner state. Even if transactions can be traced, that type of funds cannot be blocked an will always find a friendly hand.

shield132

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Quote from: paxmao on August 30, 2021, 04:11:32 PM

While most of the illegal activities in the world take place in USD and I am far from saying that bitcoin is actually worse than any other asset on that regard, I have read many news about the American withdrawal from Afghanistan and how the US government froze some billions of USD belonging to the previous government or perhaps (debatable) to the country itself. Obviously, this could not have happened if those assets were held in bitcoin or other crypto. It seems that not everything is good in self-sovereignty?

BTW, this is not a statement saying that Taliban are terrorist, just wondering about some other cases in which states were clearly linked to terror.

Modern problems require modern solutions. There is one problem that people can't understand: If we talk about illegal activities, bitcoin isn't problem alone but a whole crypto world. Will you ban bitcoin? Then we have Monero. Will you ban Monero? Then there are other cryptocurrencies and guess what? They are unique and their structure, work of mechanism is different from each-other and they aren't the clones.

Sharp knife is used to cut bread and also is used to cut someone's stomach. Knife can't be blocked, is that helping terrorists? <-- How would you answer to this question? The progress of cryptocurrencies and modern information technologies is just unstoppable and in this case both, bad and good guys benefit via the same thing because the medal has always two sides, positive and negative. So, as I said already, modern problems require modern solutions

mu_enrico

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While it's true that if the transaction is valid, it will be confirmed. But it's at the protocol level.
In the real world, I'm afraid the dynamic is a lot more complicated than that. BTC tx can be traced, and to cash out a lot of money, it's difficult to move a pile load of cash with no one notice (yes, they still need to cash out). Thus, for small scale terrorists, maybe they still can use BTC, but for the whales, it is as painful as other methods (or perhaps more painful). It helps small scale criminals/terrorist the same as they use cash. So no, BTC isn't helping terrorists.

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Quote from: zanezane on September 04, 2021, 02:02:48 AM

What can we do, we wanted a decentralized platform and the people that have malicious intent find a way to use it tho their malicious purposes. But for some terrorists, I don't think that they'll be using it though, bitcoin is easily traced if you have the manpower and equipment and dedication.

At the end of the day bitcoin is just a tool and it is up to the person to decide what they will do with that tool, they can do something constructive or they can do something destructive, it is a mistake to blame the tool for the bad uses that people give to it but that is precisely what we are going to see as bitcoin becomes more popular and banks become more aware of the risk that bitcoin represents to them and will use this as a way to scare people away from this market.

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I think the situation further exposes the use of blockchain and how it secures our funds from third parties. This is just a matter of third party security which is financial sovereignty. Although what we see is the reality of third party intrusion with fiat. This is just the way we get our bank account frozen by the banks for a little verification that the bank is requiring but will block off a customer. It is clear that is a sanction coming down to troubled countries that America didn't succeed on and thinking ahead this action can turn out as disguise for more countries to begin adopting cryptocreency to avoid centralised intrusion.

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Just like you have said nothing can be 100% perfect. When there is an advantage to something there is always going to be a disadvantage to it as well. Bitcoin is good and we all like it because of the privacy it gives to us and also the control over our wealth. Now as far as there are people who wants to make use of Bitcoin just for the good of it, There is also going to be those who wants to make use of it the wrong way. So the question is, are we going to get rid of it just because it has a disadvantage? or do we find a solution to it?

This is something that has been discussed a lot of times and that’s also been one of the points that is used by some economists against Bitcoin; they believe that there is going to be terrorists who are making use of Bitcoin as a mode of transaction, although there haven’t been much cases like this, and we wish not to see it happen.

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Quote from: SquallLeonhart on September 05, 2021, 01:23:55 PM

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This is a very very small time amount compared to all the bad people out there dealing in millions of dollars every day, there are billionaire bad people in the world, none of them uses crypto. Long story short they should fix the fiat world helping the criminals before they start to bark about how crypto helps the criminals or gives them a way out, because even though it is anonymous it is not untraceable and that means if there is a bad guy eventually you will catch them.

That's true, and I'm sure sooner or later we will not hear this "crypto helping terrorists" nonsense in the most countries. In fact, Bitcoin is surely more convenient for the law enforcement agencies for tracing terrorists than fiat with their sophisticated schemes evolved like deadly viruses with time. Bitcoin was created as an alternative currency, but also a better one in many aspects, including tracing terrorists, corrupt high level officials, and other scoundrels.

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Quote from: jaysabi on September 05, 2021, 12:28:43 AM

Maybe calm down, take a deep breath, then re-read my post in full and make a special point to read for comprehension this time. When you do, take particular note that I didn't say anything about the Taliban using bitcoin. I'm addressing two separate points in the OP, which is easy to tell because I separated the two points into two separate paragraphs. You worked yourself into a tizzy for no reason. Next time you respond to something I write, make sure it's actually on topic.

OK.. let me analyze your post once again, but I really doubt I would ever agree to your views.

Quote from: jaysabi on September 04, 2021, 04:12:21 PM

Yes, obviously and unequivocally any financial system that cannot be blocked or sanctioned provides safe haven for terrorists and other bad actors to facilitate their illegal and harmful actions. There are people on these boards who instead of acknowledging reality get angry when you state this obvious fact. The inability to acknowledge reality disqualifies all their other opinions, as they’ve proven themselves too partisan and to irrational to be taken seriously.

You want a financial system that can be blocked and sanctioned. Essentially you want a centralized system, which can be abused by the government for whatever way they want. Such a system have failed in the past. And although it is the ultimate wet dream of every socialist, I can't agree to such a system.

Just because 0.1% of the Bitcoin transactions are used by criminals, it is ridiculous to blame the entire cryptocurrency community for that. For criminals, the preferred mode of payment is fiat currency and despite the fact that fiat transactions can be "blocked" and "sanctioned", the usage of fiat for such operations is growing with every passing year. So what does this mean?

The solution is not to use a system that is completely under the control of the government, but to increase the efficiency of the law enforcement department. They are just giving out excuses, to hide their own failure.

SquallLeonhart

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Quote from: Wawa2013 on September 05, 2021, 04:10:56 AM

This is how smart Bitcoin haters are, they provide inaccurate information and mislead a lot of people. Bitcoin will always get accused of helping terrorists, maybe because Bitcoin is decentralized and the government can't control it, then raise the accusation that Bitcoin is widely used for illegal activities. Though if we do the research properly, and get information from reliable sources, will find the fact that the number of terrorists who use fiat far more. Because terrorists existed before 2009, when there was no Bitcoin, that many terrorists use to carry out illegal activities is fiat.
So it's actually not true with the information that says Bitcoin helps terrorists. There are indeed some terrorists who use Bitcoin, but very few of them. Many terrorists until now use fiat more for their illegal activities.

It is so much more in fiat then bitcoin, that's true. Bad people use tons more in fiat then they use in bitcoin, bitcoin is probably just the low level drug dealer that sells weed on darknet and that's about it, the transaction is done in bitcoin or some other coin like monero, and then they send the product after the buyer sends the coins, then dealer sends the drugs and it's done.

This is a very very small time amount compared to all the bad people out there dealing in millions of dollars every day, there are billionaire bad people in the world, none of them uses crypto. Long story short they should fix the fiat world helping the criminals before they start to bark about how crypto helps the criminals or gives them a way out, because even though it is anonymous it is not untraceable and that means if there is a bad guy eventually you will catch them.

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Quote from: YOSHIE on September 04, 2021, 01:28:29 AM

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Terrorists prefer to use cash instead of using Bitcoin, they don't like complicated and complicated affairs, terrorists prefer simple, real and accurate, that's my thought.

Agree with this. Because even when Islamic State was at it's peak dominance in Iraq/Syria, there were zero reports of them using cryptocurrency. It is no secret that Bitcoin is used (to some extent) in drugs trade (especially using dark markets). But terrorists using Bitcoin is just another fairytale being spread by the lefties who want to destroy the cryptocurrency sector. And if by any chance the terrorists are using Bitcoin, then it is the fault of the government. Bitcoin was not specifically designed to help terrorists or criminals.

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Quote from: SquallLeonhart on September 05, 2021, 03:06:00 AM

Quote from: Leviathan.007 on September 04, 2021, 05:55:29 AM

That's the reason for some governments and organizations to stay against bitcoin. the whole point is the paper money can be used by terrorists too. they were using paper money before 2009 and none said paper money is the tool for terrorists, they even used oil and gold for the large trades and none said anything negative regarding these famous assets. Bitcoin is an asset and a tool and can be used by different people for different things sometimes there are millions of dollars of anonymous donations by bitcoin to a charity and sometimes there is a transaction done by the terrorists by bitcoin.

That's the best part about bitcoin that people miss. They talk about how terrorists use it like there were no terrorists before 2009, they talk about criminals using it and there were criminals before 2009, they talk about money laundering, blackmailing, hacking, many bad things all acting like it wasn't a thing before 2009. Honestly crypto has been around for years and it has been accused of all these things forever when in reality fiat has been the main thing for that in a long time.

There was a gossip (not sure if it is real) about how most 20 dollar bills have cocaine trace in them, think about how much that money actually is and you will realize how much dark money is in fiat as well. Long story short bitcoin is not the main source of problems governments are having and it is not the only thing that bad people use, even if bitcoin stop existing today, bad people will find another way anyway.

This is how smart Bitcoin haters are, they provide inaccurate information and mislead a lot of people. Bitcoin will always get accused of helping
terrorists, maybe because Bitcoin is decentralized and the government can't control it, then raise the accusation that Bitcoin is widely used for
illegal activities. Though if we do the research properly, and get information from reliable sources, will find the fact that the number of terrorists
who use fiat far more. Because terrorists existed before 2009, when there was no Bitcoin, that many terrorists use to carry out illegal activities is fiat.
So it's actually not true with the information that says Bitcoin helps terrorists. There are indeed some terrorists who use Bitcoin, but very few of
them. Many terrorists until now use fiat more for their illegal activities.

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Quote from: Leviathan.007 on September 04, 2021, 05:55:29 AM

That's the reason for some governments and organizations to stay against bitcoin. the whole point is the paper money can be used by terrorists too. they were using paper money before 2009 and none said paper money is the tool for terrorists, they even used oil and gold for the large trades and none said anything negative regarding these famous assets. Bitcoin is an asset and a tool and can be used by different people for different things sometimes there are millions of dollars of anonymous donations by bitcoin to a charity and sometimes there is a transaction done by the terrorists by bitcoin.

That's the best part about bitcoin that people miss. They talk about how terrorists use it like there were no terrorists before 2009, they talk about criminals using it and there were criminals before 2009, they talk about money laundering, blackmailing, hacking, many bad things all acting like it wasn't a thing before 2009. Honestly crypto has been around for years and it has been accused of all these things forever when in reality fiat has been the main thing for that in a long time.

There was a gossip (not sure if it is real) about how most 20 dollar bills have cocaine trace in them, think about how much that money actually is and you will realize how much dark money is in fiat as well. Long story short bitcoin is not the main source of problems governments are having and it is not the only thing that bad people use, even if bitcoin stop existing today, bad people will find another way anyway.

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