Bitcoin assets cannot be blocked - is that helping terrorists? - page 3.

jaysabi

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Quote from: Sithara007 on September 04, 2021, 10:10:27 PM

Quote from: jaysabi on September 04, 2021, 04:12:21 PM

Quote from: paxmao on August 30, 2021, 04:11:32 PM

While most of the illegal activities in the world take place in USD and I am far from saying that bitcoin is actually worse than any other asset on that regard, I have read many news about the American withdrawal from Afghanistan and how the US government froze some billions of USD belonging to the previous government or perhaps (debatable) to the country itself. Obviously, this could not have happened if those assets were held in bitcoin or other crypto. It seems that not everything is good in self-sovereignty?

BTW, this is not a statement saying that Taliban are terrorist, just wondering about some other cases in which states were clearly linked to terror.

Yes, obviously and unequivocally any financial system that cannot be blocked or sanctioned provides safe haven for terrorists and other bad actors to facilitate their illegal and harmful actions. There are people on these boards who instead of acknowledging reality get angry when you state this obvious fact. The inability to acknowledge reality disqualifies all their other opinions, as they’ve proven themselves too partisan and to irrational to be taken seriously.

And no need to equivocate. The Taliban is 100% a terrorist organization, as much now as it was before they were overthrown by the western allies.

I am not surprised by the rants from left-wing that government should control all the financial activities and there should be no anonymity. The argument is that anonymous modes of payments are being used for terror financing, and for criminal activities. But apart from these "assumptions", I am 100% sure that you don't have any concrete proof with you to link Bitcoin with Taliban. To date, there hasn't been a single incident which links the Taliban to cryptocurrency. Your argument is based on just assumptions and not real data. Taliban gets close to 100% of their funds in the form of fiat. But obviously, you don't want to focus on that part.

Maybe calm down, take a deep breath, then re-read my post in full and make a special point to read for comprehension this time. When you do, take particular note that I didn't say anything about the Taliban using bitcoin. I'm addressing two separate points in the OP, which is easy to tell because I separated the two points into two separate paragraphs. You worked yourself into a tizzy for no reason. Next time you respond to something I write, make sure it's actually on topic.

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Quote from: jaysabi on September 04, 2021, 04:12:21 PM

Quote from: paxmao on August 30, 2021, 04:11:32 PM

While most of the illegal activities in the world take place in USD and I am far from saying that bitcoin is actually worse than any other asset on that regard, I have read many news about the American withdrawal from Afghanistan and how the US government froze some billions of USD belonging to the previous government or perhaps (debatable) to the country itself. Obviously, this could not have happened if those assets were held in bitcoin or other crypto. It seems that not everything is good in self-sovereignty?

BTW, this is not a statement saying that Taliban are terrorist, just wondering about some other cases in which states were clearly linked to terror.

Yes, obviously and unequivocally any financial system that cannot be blocked or sanctioned provides safe haven for terrorists and other bad actors to facilitate their illegal and harmful actions. There are people on these boards who instead of acknowledging reality get angry when you state this obvious fact. The inability to acknowledge reality disqualifies all their other opinions, as they’ve proven themselves too partisan and to irrational to be taken seriously.

And no need to equivocate. The Taliban is 100% a terrorist organization, as much now as it was before they were overthrown by the western allies.

I am not surprised by the rants from left-wing that government should control all the financial activities and there should be no anonymity. The argument is that anonymous modes of payments are being used for terror financing, and for criminal activities. But apart from these "assumptions", I am 100% sure that you don't have any concrete proof with you to link Bitcoin with Taliban. To date, there hasn't been a single incident which links the Taliban to cryptocurrency. Your argument is based on just assumptions and not real data. Taliban gets close to 100% of their funds in the form of fiat. But obviously, you don't want to focus on that part.

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Remember that the motive of creating Bitcoin by Satoshi Nakamoto is to make transactions less stressful and easier by avoiding exorbitant fees being charged by third parties service providers. It will be difficult for government to get hold of money in form of Bitcoin than just using ordinary Fiat.

Everything that has advantages also have it's own disadvantages which is the reason why many persons are still castigating the use of Bitcoin as a method of payment because of people are using it to scam innocent persons violating the objects of it's development.

jaysabi

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Quote from: paxmao on August 30, 2021, 04:11:32 PM

While most of the illegal activities in the world take place in USD and I am far from saying that bitcoin is actually worse than any other asset on that regard, I have read many news about the American withdrawal from Afghanistan and how the US government froze some billions of USD belonging to the previous government or perhaps (debatable) to the country itself. Obviously, this could not have happened if those assets were held in bitcoin or other crypto. It seems that not everything is good in self-sovereignty?

BTW, this is not a statement saying that Taliban are terrorist, just wondering about some other cases in which states were clearly linked to terror.

Yes, obviously and unequivocally any financial system that cannot be blocked or sanctioned provides safe haven for terrorists and other bad actors to facilitate their illegal and harmful actions. There are people on these boards who instead of acknowledging reality get angry when you state this obvious fact. The inability to acknowledge reality disqualifies all their other opinions, as they’ve proven themselves too partisan and to irrational to be taken seriously.

And no need to equivocate. The Taliban is 100% a terrorist organization, as much now as it was before they were overthrown by the western allies.

Gyfts

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Generally, yes. Although, there are videos circulating around with the Taliban with stacks of USD filling up entire rooms because the military left it all behind. Think the Taliban is going to be using that instead of Bitcoin. So fiat currencies and traditional banking institutions can help terrorist networks too, but there is never really too much talk about that. Bad actors will and can take advantage of decentralization, that doesn't negative crypto because it literally applies to any fiat based currency.

teosanru

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Quote from: paxmao on August 30, 2021, 04:11:32 PM

While most of the illegal activities in the world take place in USD and I am far from saying that bitcoin is actually worse than any other asset on that regard, I have read many news about the American withdrawal from Afghanistan and how the US government froze some billions of USD belonging to the previous government or perhaps (debatable) to the country itself. Obviously, this could not have happened if those assets were held in bitcoin or other crypto. It seems that not everything is good in self-sovereignty?

BTW, this is not a statement saying that Taliban are terrorist, just wondering about some other cases in which states were clearly linked to terror.

There are even concrete evidence that suggest the USA themselves have funded the Mujahids in Afghanistan to fight against rising Soviet power, if there was bitcoin at that point in time, things would have come out more easily as a clear trail could be established of where the money goes, It's quite easy to say that Terrorists are using cryptocurrencies to make transactions but the thing is money has to originate from someplace or the other, Terrorists would use cash if not bitcoin, that is even difficult to trace or establish any trails, In fact cryptocurrencies would help in finding the root of this money because it's clearly not impossible to trace out the person from the address.

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Quote from: Leviathan.007 on September 04, 2021, 05:55:29 AM

That's the reason for some governments and organizations to stay against bitcoin.

It is a reason, but it is not a valid one by the stretch of any imagination, it's just a means or an excuse rather for the government to continue it's hostility towards Bitcoin, if we're to be honest here, the only problem the government have with Bitcoin is that they cannot control it, they can't print it how they like, or freeze it's users account, or generally do all they can with their fiat currencies, that's just what the problem is, it's not cause "terrorists can possibly use it freely" or all other conspiracy theories they come up with.

I think the government need to understand something and that is the fact that Bitcoin is a currency and there is no way to stop whoever wants to use it from doing so, neither does it make it a currency that we should do away with, if we're to look at it that way, the use of Fiat should also be stopped considering all the atrocious activities that has been carried out with it. Bitcoin isn't helping terrorists per se, it's a decentralized currency that helps individuals to maintain their privacy and be free from government controlling their finances arbitrarily.

qwertyup23

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Quote from: paxmao on August 30, 2021, 04:11:32 PM

While most of the illegal activities in the world take place in USD and I am far from saying that bitcoin is actually worse than any other asset on that regard, I have read many news about the American withdrawal from Afghanistan and how the US government froze some billions of USD belonging to the previous government or perhaps (debatable) to the country itself. Obviously, this could not have happened if those assets were held in bitcoin or other crypto. It seems that not everything is good in self-sovereignty?

BTW, this is not a statement saying that Taliban are terrorist, just wondering about some other cases in which states were clearly linked to terror.

While I do understand that BTCs were somehow linked or associated in the past as an avenue to purchase prohibited or contraband items, I think this is not the case this time in Afghanistan. With the country being somehow frozen with their assets, they lack the necessary stronghold and infrastructure to support a widespread implementation of BTCs on their country.

Money is indeed power- one with the most resources can definitely take the tide of the battle. But in this case where the Taliban has control of the country, their problem would be funding (though China has expressed their terms into helping them).

agg2702

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Quote from: Leviathan.007 on September 04, 2021, 05:55:29 AM

That's the reason for some governments and organizations to stay against bitcoin. the whole point is the paper money can be used by terrorists too. they were using paper money before 2009 and none said paper money is the tool for terrorists, they even used oil and gold for the large trades and none said anything negative regarding these famous assets. Bitcoin is an asset and a tool and can be used by different people for different things sometimes there are millions of dollars of anonymous donations by bitcoin to a charity and sometimes there is a transaction done by the terrorists by bitcoin.

because this is a platform that can be accessed by everyone whether it's ordinary people, influential people such as influencers, people involved in politics and even terrorists. bitcoin can be done and accessed by everyone because here there are no restrictions or prohibitions for certain people (except government policies that prohibit).
but with your thread I just realized with this why paper money, gold and oil are also not applied the same thing as bitcoin (a tool for terrorists) even though it is true that this is also used for terrorists and even fighting for oil in Arab countries is still has something to do with terrorists, then why not say the same thing as they say that bitcoin is access to make it easier for terrorists? I just realized this.

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Quote from: zanezane on September 04, 2021, 02:02:48 AM

What can we do, we wanted a decentralized platform and the people that have malicious intent find a way to use it tho their malicious purposes. But for some terrorists, I don't think that they'll be using it though, bitcoin is easily traced if you have the manpower and equipment and dedication.

The government is where the manpower is but their search also seems to be fruitless for the scammers, quite a few crypto lawsuits have been stored in police offices under the directory name of pending, I think the most recent victims have also been powerless before their lawsuits, looking for the police is just to sow hope and scare some scammers. But most terrorists probably give up this technology option, they direct the funds directly to their accounts under the security policies of international banks, a legitimate account is better than collecting and swapping bitcoin

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That's the reason for some governments and organizations to stay against bitcoin. the whole point is the paper money can be used by terrorists too. they were using paper money before 2009 and none said paper money is the tool for terrorists, they even used oil and gold for the large trades and none said anything negative regarding these famous assets. Bitcoin is an asset and a tool and can be used by different people for different things sometimes there are millions of dollars of anonymous donations by bitcoin to a charity and sometimes there is a transaction done by the terrorists by bitcoin.

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The fact that funds can't be blocked in a way that banks accounts can be frozen is potentially helping terrorists, but as others mentioned in this thread, there are things to take into account here (the need to exchange fiat for BTC to actually use it most of the time; private keys). Also, if using Bitcoin were so simple and so much more convenient, wouldn't all terrorists prefer Bitcoin by now? Apart from that, even if it makes things easier for terrorists, it's not a good enough reason to abandon cryptos altogether, IMO.

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What can we do, we wanted a decentralized platform and the people that have malicious intent find a way to use it tho their malicious purposes. But for some terrorists, I don't think that they'll be using it though, bitcoin is easily traced if you have the manpower and equipment and dedication.

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Bitcoin resources will help terrorists but they will not be able to make real use of it because bitcoin is not in circulation in all countries of the world and needs to be converted into fiat currency. Bitcoin transfer all transactions in an anonymous way thus the use of bitcoin by criminals is actually more risky than conventional methods, such as cash in hand transfer. Believes that the bitcoin blockchain is now being monitored more closely for illegal transactions than the banking system but it is difficult to criminalize kyc terrorists.

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Quote from: paxmao on August 30, 2021, 04:11:32 PM

Bitcoin assets cannot be blocked - is that helping terrorists?

No, as long as Bitcoin or other crypto assets, are still in contact with Banks or the like in disbursement, except: Bitcoin can be processed directly without involving the Bank, maybe it can benefit terrorists.

Bitcoin/crypto indeed cannot be blocked, but the government can still block access for bank disbursements to banks, if their names are listed as terrorists, they can block that access, but the story of terrorists with Bitcoin is far from raising funds, terrorists were born before Bitcoin was launched, they already have tens of trillions of funds to facilitate their needs, what I want to talk about is Bitcoin is only 13 years old, terrorists have been around for centuries with quite a lot of funds.

Example: You remember when Washington and the CIA published the discovery documents during the Osama bin Laden raid, it was never in the documents, computers, files found within the al Qaeda organization contained elements or transactions that led to Bitcoin or other crypto assets, it occurred in 2011.

Terrorists prefer to use cash instead of using Bitcoin, they don't like complicated and complicated affairs, terrorists prefer simple, real and accurate, that's my thought.

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Bitcoin has the advantage when it comes to people who personally have them on their wallets than having their money in the banks that could freeze the funds. We have witnessed this happen all over India, Cuba, and Afghanistan where people line up to the bank's door waiting for their turn but end up having nothing to withdraw because their banks are not allowing them.

We often think of violence and bombing as terrorism but it's just one form. Occupying one's country is already terrorism itself. Banks making those people go hungry and have no money to buy food for themselves is no less than terrorism as much as a government freezing billions of USD belonging to another government.

This is why countries should just adopt Bitcoin if they are not going to want to be affected because their wealth is taken from them forcibly.

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Quote from: Darker45 on September 03, 2021, 09:15:00 PM

I won't say Bitcoin helps terrorists in the same manner that I would also not say that the USD is helping drug lords, knives helping murderers, internet helping perverts, and so on.

The technology is even more good than neutral. There was never any intention or purpose whatsoever, I believe, of providing these terrorists and other criminals a convenient way to keep and move their funds. If Bitcoin's features provide ease to these criminals to safekeep their money, it is merely considered as an unexpected drawback of the technology under the category of unexpected consequences. Having said this, I wouldn't cast judgment on Bitcoin based on this.

Talking about terrorism and any crime, wealth in the form of cash, assets, crypto (bitcoin) is only a tool, as long as criminals understand or are experts in the process, not only bitcoin, all types of currencies and assets can be used for crime tools.
Simple example:
- Corruptors' cash money smuggled from Batam, Indonesia to Singapore through many people who then crossed from Batam to Singapore with cash in daily basis.
- Smuggling of cash through containers into a country,
- Cross-border money transfer with fictitious exports
So it all depends on our motives (humans) as the subject. If we are good then we will use the bitcoins in our hands well. If in the hands of bad people with evil motives, bitcoin can be used for crimes as long as the subject understands transactions using bitcoin.

Darker45

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I won't say Bitcoin helps terrorists in the same manner that I would also not say that the USD is helping drug lords, knives helping murderers, internet helping perverts, and so on.

The technology is even more good than neutral. There was never any intention or purpose whatsoever, I believe, of providing these terrorists and other criminals a convenient way to keep and move their funds. If Bitcoin's features provide ease to these criminals to safekeep their money, it is merely considered as an unexpected drawback of the technology under the category of unexpected consequences. Having said this, I wouldn't cast judgment on Bitcoin based on this.

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It's annoying if that will happen where the bitcoin assets can be blocked. If bit2is centralized then the terrorist that will do illegal and tried to transfer will be blocked but as we all know, bitcoin is decentralised. I don't know if a terrorist wants to cash the bitcoin to fiat but in his/her country that only have one or two wallets that can be used to sell cryptocurrency to fiat but the wallet needs KYC to create and is regulated by the bank then it is possible to block or prevent terrorist to do illegal things.

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Given that all banks that hold Afghanistan’s wealth refuses to acknowledge the Taliban’s claim on the stash, they might turn into cryptocurrencies for the mean time in order to help them get by. It is, in part helping the terrorists by providing them a currency and an avenue wherein they can transact with people across their border without being discriminated nor ignored because of their political leanings and beliefs. Even though that’s the case, I don’t think the Talibans would have it easy given that their resources are getting spread thin day by day and they’d be needing that billions in the banks any time soon.

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