Bitcoin-Central, first exchange licensed to operate with a bank. This is HUGE - page 9.

2weiX

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Quote from: paraipan on May 30, 2013, 09:44:06 AM

Quote from: 2weiX on May 30, 2013, 08:45:44 AM

Quote from: davout on May 30, 2013, 08:37:56 AM

Just for the few people here who seem a little confused : Bitcoin is legally neither currency, nor electronic money.

It is a financial instrument, tho (at leas so sayeth BAFin).

Not at all 2weiX, but digital property like for example a domain name. We've been having allot of talks with our lawyers here in Spain, and the most probable course of action will be to follow laws and regulations regarding personal property that are already in place for the digital realm.

the german SEC (called bafin) has stated that as soon as the BTC is traded for money, it is a financial instrument.
the FinCEN has called Bitcoin a "digital currency".

i do not for a minute subscribe to this "digital property" bull.

MPOE-PR

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Quote from: paraipan on May 30, 2013, 11:56:22 AM

Quote from: becoin on May 30, 2013, 11:53:44 AM

Quote from: paraipan on May 30, 2013, 11:04:45 AM

You can look at it like the difference from real estate, house or land deeds, and chattels which are your possession too but can be moved with ease.

In all the countries I've lived so far transactions in real estate, house or land deeds, and chattels are NOT tax exempt! You have to pay both federal and local taxes. So, back to square 1.

Sit back and relax, you have the answer in your post. NOT tax exempt, but you don't pay VAT Wink

Pure nonsense. Nobody has any title to any Bitcoin.

Quote

Because of these reasons it can not be said that anyone holds any title in either law or equity to any Bitcoin. Since there is no first owner of the Bitcoin that could then pass title as part of a contract, all purported Bitcoin "purchases" are contracts for no consideration and as such legally without merit.

The reasons why Bitcoin securities can't be regulated by the SEC.

davout

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Quote from: becoin on May 30, 2013, 12:06:28 PM

It is worse. You pay a dozen of different taxes and fees depending on the location and there are also different restriction upon subsequent resales.

Relax. And go do something of your own.

becoin

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Quote from: paraipan on May 30, 2013, 11:56:22 AM

Quote from: becoin on May 30, 2013, 11:53:44 AM

Quote from: paraipan on May 30, 2013, 11:04:45 AM

You can look at it like the difference from real estate, house or land deeds, and chattels which are your possession too but can be moved with ease.

In all the countries I've lived so far transactions in real estate, house or land deeds, and chattels are NOT tax exempt! You have to pay both federal and local taxes. So, back to square 1.

Sit back and relax, you have the answer in your post. NOT tax exempt, but you don't pay VAT Wink

It is worse. You pay a dozen of different taxes and fees depending on the location and there are also different restriction upon subsequent resales.

becoin

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Quote from: paraipan on May 30, 2013, 11:45:58 AM

Quote from: davout on May 30, 2013, 11:41:09 AM

...

So your thing is "Bitcoins aren't sold or bought, only their 'property titles' are negotiated" that's really interesting. I'll look into it

Exactly, I recommend you look into SEDO, the biggest marketplace for domain names around. I think I already did enough thread derailing for today.

I appreciate when somebody is trying to find a solution but believe me, this is the wrong way to follow. Domain names are very different from bitcoins. For instance, there is only one "manufacturer" worldwide of .com's, .net's, .org's etc. This is why they have special treatment. While with bitcoins every miner is a "manufacturer" of bitcoins and will have to pay sales tax when they sell their product if, of course, bitcoin don't get the status of a currency.

paraipan

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Quote from: becoin on May 30, 2013, 11:53:44 AM

Quote from: paraipan on May 30, 2013, 11:04:45 AM

You can look at it like the difference from real estate, house or land deeds, and chattels which are your possession too but can be moved with ease.

In all the countries I've lived so far transactions in real estate, house or land deeds, and chattels are NOT tax exempt! You have to pay both federal and local taxes. So, back to square 1.

Sit back and relax, you have the answer in your post. NOT tax exempt, but you don't pay VAT Wink

becoin

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Quote from: paraipan on May 30, 2013, 11:04:45 AM

You can look at it like the difference from real estate, house or land deeds, and chattels which are your possession too but can be moved with ease.

In all the countries I've lived so far transactions in real estate, house or land deeds, and chattels are NOT tax exempt! You have to pay both federal and local taxes. So, back to square 1.

paraipan

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Quote from: davout on May 30, 2013, 11:41:09 AM

...

So your thing is "Bitcoins aren't sold or bought, only their 'property titles' are negotiated" that's really interesting. I'll look into it

Exactly, I recommend you look into SEDO, the biggest marketplace for domain names around. I think I already did enough thread derailing for today.

davout

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Quote from: paraipan on May 30, 2013, 11:17:54 AM

That's right davout. We found out this could be applied to a floating rate exchange too, so a a license for money transmitting would only be required in case want to provide extra services to our clients, but not the basic exchange of bitcoins for fiat. A recent similar decision was made public by the Canadian FinTRAC authority.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/05/20/canada_welcomes_bitcoin_traders_fintrac_letter/

It depends on what you call a floating rate exchange.

As soon as you touch the clients funds you need a license because you're escrowing them, aka holding them on deposit.

The alternative is "we buy from the seller, and sell to the buyer in the very same operation, the money on deposit is just a pre-payment to us" but then the whole VAT mess sneaks back in.

So your thing is "Bitcoins aren't sold or bought, only their 'property titles' are negotiated" that's really interesting. I'll look into it

paraipan

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Quote from: davout on May 30, 2013, 10:57:36 AM

Surprisingly, becoin is right, if you sell stuff there's VAT.

Quote from: paraipan on May 30, 2013, 10:24:01 AM

Please read again, I said digital property not digital goods, although you can find certain tax exempt goods too.

Oh, so that's where you were going, be a fixed-rate exchanger, sell BTC, pay VAT on sales but find some sort of category that benefits from a VAT full/partial exemption and get lawyers to make it fit in said category. Right?

That's right davout. We found out this could be applied to a floating rate exchange too, so a a license for money transmitting would only be required in case we want to provide extra services to our clients, but not the basic exchange of bitcoins for fiat. A recent similar decision was made public by the Canadian FinTRAC authority.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/05/20/canada_welcomes_bitcoin_traders_fintrac_letter/

paraipan

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Quote from: becoin on May 30, 2013, 10:43:47 AM

Quote from: paraipan on May 30, 2013, 10:24:01 AM

Please read again, I said digital property not digital goods, although you can find certain tax exempt goods too.

I'm not aware of any judicial system that makes distinction between digital property and digital goods. The article you've pointed me to is describing only the digital property:

Quote

Intellectual property rights also can exist in digital property, such as pictures, music, movies, literary works, Web pages, computer code, and other creative works.

If above items are digital property I wonder what would be digital goods then?

Explaining the difference would be quite lengthy and off-topic for this thread. You can look at it like the difference from real estate, house or land deeds, and chattels which are your possession too but can be moved with ease. Bitcoin would be the equivalent of real estate in this case, and the only thing that changes would be their possession in the blockchain. This is similar to a central register that is maintained by your local Town Hall with all the people's property on available land.

Sorry for derailing this topic.

davout

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Surprisingly, becoin is right, if you sell stuff there's VAT.

Quote from: paraipan on May 30, 2013, 10:24:01 AM

Please read again, I said digital property not digital goods, although you can find certain tax exempt goods too.

Oh, so that's where you were going, be a fixed-rate exchanger, sell BTC, pay VAT on sales but find some sort of category that benefits from a VAT full/partial exemption and get lawyers to make it fit in said category. Right?

becoin

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Quote from: paraipan on May 30, 2013, 10:24:01 AM

Please read again, I said digital property not digital goods, although you can find certain tax exempt goods too.

I'm not aware of any judicial system that makes distinction between digital property and digital goods. The article you've pointed me to is describing only the digital property:

Quote

Intellectual property rights also can exist in digital property, such as pictures, music, movies, literary works, Web pages, computer code, and other creative works.

If above items are digital property I wonder what would be digital goods then?

paraipan

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Quote from: becoin on May 30, 2013, 09:53:16 AM

Quote from: paraipan on May 30, 2013, 09:44:06 AM

and the most probable course of action will be to follow laws and regulations regarding personal property that are already in place for the digital realm.

That'll be a big mistake! If you follow this course of action all bitcoin exchanges will have to apply sales tax in the US or VAT in the EU which is roughly 20% on every bitcoin sale. You understand that bitcoin can not compete with any fiat currency if 20% "fee" is applied on all currency conversions!

Please read again, I said digital property not digital goods, although you can find certain tax exempt goods too.

becoin

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Quote from: paraipan on May 30, 2013, 09:44:06 AM

and the most probable course of action will be to follow laws and regulations regarding personal property that are already in place for the digital realm.

That'll be a big mistake! If you follow this course of action all bitcoin exchanges will have to apply sales tax in the US or VAT in the EU which is roughly 20% on every bitcoin sale. You understand that bitcoin can not compete with any fiat currency if 20% "fee" is applied on all currency conversions!

paraipan

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Quote from: 2weiX on May 30, 2013, 08:45:44 AM

Quote from: davout on May 30, 2013, 08:37:56 AM

Just for the few people here who seem a little confused : Bitcoin is legally neither currency, nor electronic money.

It is a financial instrument, tho (at leas so sayeth BAFin).

Not at all 2weiX, but digital property like for example a domain name. We've been having allot of talks with our lawyers here in Spain, and the most probable course of action will be to follow laws and regulations regarding personal property that are already in place for the digital realm.

2weiX

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this space intentionally left blank

Quote from: davout on May 30, 2013, 08:37:56 AM

Just for the few people here who seem a little confused : Bitcoin is legally neither currency, nor electronic money.

It is a financial instrument, tho (at leas so sayeth BAFin).

davout

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1davout

Just for the few people here who seem a little confused : Bitcoin is legally neither currency, nor electronic money.

crazy_rabbit

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RUM AND CARROTS: A PIRATE LIFE FOR ME

Quote from: 2weiX on May 30, 2013, 07:56:10 AM

Quote from: crazy_rabbit on May 30, 2013, 07:37:16 AM

Quote from: 2weiX on May 30, 2013, 07:35:04 AM

Quote from: crazy_rabbit on May 30, 2013, 07:24:00 AM

Quote from: Phinnaeus Gage on May 29, 2013, 01:59:51 AM

Quote from: Boussac on May 28, 2013, 08:01:33 AM

Paymium is talking now to potential banking partners: this should not take a whole lot longer.
In parallel, the Paymium dev team is working on enhanced security, peformance and GUI.
Stay tuned..

Good luck in finding a bank that its CEO hasn't heard about Liberty Reserve.

My guess is that no bank will touch Paymium in fear of opening the doors for a money laundering investigation.

Any bank that does allow Paymium as a client, probably has low due diligence standards and should be avoided.

Can't wait till you publicly name the bank you get lucky to team up with. I'm sure they, too, can't wait to see their name in print.

I think you're being a bit dramatic. It is entirely possible to team up with a bank in such a way that the bank isn't exposed in a bad way. Compliance, compliance, compliance. We should all be making that happen.

I've seen some of the paperwork involved between a bank on one side and a bitcoinmarket on the other.
NOT trivial AT ALL, no matter how nicely you can spell "compliance".

I was assuming they would hire someone who has done more then just 'seen' some paperwork. Thanks for your expert opinion in once having glimpsed a stack of paper that you didn't understand.

If they are a real company they will hire a lawyer with regulatory compliance experience.

Sheesh, don't get all peeved just because I read something you only heard about^^
There's a whole number of issues that even a bunch of lawyers familiar with the field have a hard time answering.
Hell, a whole number of issues are completely up for interpretation. And no bank I know of will touch bitcoin without securing every possible line of transaction or possible failure.

One basic example: Need Bitcoin deposits be held at the exchange or at the bank? MUST they be at the bank? MAY the be at the exchange? What kind of libel arises in either case? Are they subject to the EU deposit insurance? To what extent...?

haaha, sorry. :-)

2weiX

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this space intentionally left blank

Quote from: crazy_rabbit on May 30, 2013, 07:37:16 AM

Quote from: 2weiX on May 30, 2013, 07:35:04 AM

Quote from: crazy_rabbit on May 30, 2013, 07:24:00 AM

Quote from: Phinnaeus Gage on May 29, 2013, 01:59:51 AM

Quote from: Boussac on May 28, 2013, 08:01:33 AM

Paymium is talking now to potential banking partners: this should not take a whole lot longer.
In parallel, the Paymium dev team is working on enhanced security, peformance and GUI.
Stay tuned..

Good luck in finding a bank that its CEO hasn't heard about Liberty Reserve.

My guess is that no bank will touch Paymium in fear of opening the doors for a money laundering investigation.

Any bank that does allow Paymium as a client, probably has low due diligence standards and should be avoided.

Can't wait till you publicly name the bank you get lucky to team up with. I'm sure they, too, can't wait to see their name in print.

I think you're being a bit dramatic. It is entirely possible to team up with a bank in such a way that the bank isn't exposed in a bad way. Compliance, compliance, compliance. We should all be making that happen.

I've seen some of the paperwork involved between a bank on one side and a bitcoinmarket on the other.
NOT trivial AT ALL, no matter how nicely you can spell "compliance".

I was assuming they would hire someone who has done more then just 'seen' some paperwork. Thanks for your expert opinion in once having glimpsed a stack of paper that you didn't understand.

If they are a real company they will hire a lawyer with regulatory compliance experience.

Sheesh, don't get all peeved just because I read something you only heard about^^
There's a whole number of issues that even a bunch of lawyers familiar with the field have a hard time answering.
Hell, a whole number of issues are completely up for interpretation. And no bank I know of will touch bitcoin without securing every possible line of transaction or possible failure.

One basic example: Need Bitcoin deposits be held at the exchange or at the bank? MUST they be at the bank? MAY the be at the exchange? What kind of libel arises in either case? Are they subject to the EU deposit insurance? To what extent...?

Topic: Bitcoin-Central, first exchange licensed to operate with a bank. This is HUGE - page 9. (Read 191876 times)