Bitcoin crashes when those investing realise 2 things - page 7.

BittBurger

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revans trolls anti-bitcoin gibberish on this forum all the time. Just look at his posting history.

Revans I'd like to call attention to your fabulous prediction in May 2013 regarding the price of bitcoin:

"Some people are working really hard to push the price back up to $90. I expect a bloodbath when MtGox resumes trading, could be down to sub $5 this time tomorrow."

Your pearls of wisdom

Melbustus

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Activity: 1722

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Quote from: revans on November 13, 2013, 11:55:43 AM

Quote from: Melbustus on November 13, 2013, 11:33:26 AM

Quote from: revans on November 13, 2013, 10:28:30 AM

Quote from: Melbustus on November 13, 2013, 10:19:36 AM

Where's that "not sure if trolling or just stupid pic"?

Divisibility doesn't reduce anyone's holdings. Control of 1 BTC is currently control off 100m satoshis. Increase divisibility by a million, and that same 1 BTC represents control of 100 trillion satoshis. It's all about percentages.

FYI, rational people quickly realize that extreme divisibility is a huge plus and a core property of ideal money.

Right, and you don't think some people might have issue with the value if an individual Bitcoin is sudden altered to be worth 100x or 1000x as many sub units? How is this any different from the currency debasement you bemoan in state fiat?

Because the percentage you control is the same!

Ah, here it is:

The dumbness is strong with this one.

Let me explain, as you clearly aren't smart enogh to grasp the idea yourself.

Bitcoin cultists talk of individual Bitcoins being worth hundreds of thousands of dollars eventually, which would mean very few people would ever own a whole Bitcoin and so would see their Bitcoin wealth expressed as sub units of a Bitcoin. Now let's say that it is decided that instead of 100M, that a bitcoin can now be divided into 1 billion sub units. As a result those people who hold any number of whole Bitcoins can buy 10x as much Bitcoin wealth from those who only have Bitcoin fractions. Goods priced in Bitcoins would obviously adjust, but there would be a period in which the imbalance would leave those with whole Bitcoins with a massive increase in purchasing power.

Why is it so hard for you to think in percentages? Are you Maria Bartiromo?

Increasing bitcoin's divisibility would not change the percentage ownership of the money base represented by anyone's existing holdings (as basically everyone in this thread has painstakingly tried to point out to you, even with examples). Prices would not have to adjust! Everything stays exactly the same, except that more *precision* in pricing is now possible for really cheap goods.

djalexr

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I hope he's winding everyone up...sadly though there are people that stupid in the world!

alincoln

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Merit: 100

Quote from: revans on November 13, 2013, 12:21:41 PM

Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: revans on November 13, 2013, 12:07:47 PM

Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: revans on November 13, 2013, 11:55:43 AM

The dumbness is strong with this one.

Let me explain, as you clearly aren't smart enogh to grasp the idea yourself.

Bitcoin cultists talk of individual Bitcoins being worth hundreds of thousands of dollars eventually, which would mean very few people would ever own a whole Bitcoin and so would see their Bitcoin wealth expressed as sub units of a Bitcoin. Now let's say that it is decided that instead of 100M, that a bitcoin can now be divided into 1 billion sub units. As a result those people who hold any number of whole Bitcoins can buy 10x as much Bitcoin wealth from those who only have Bitcoin fractions.

You have a whole pie. It's cut into 4 slices.

I have half a pie. It's cut the same as yours, so I have 2 slices.

We decide that instead of 4 slices per pie, we are going to cut them smaller and make 8 slices per pie.

You have a whole pie. It's cut into 8 slices.

I have half a pie. It's cut the same as yours, so I have 4 slices.

What are you on about? We both still have the same fucking amount of pie!

Excellent.

Now explain to me how the US Dollar is debased compared to Bitcoin on this basis.

I already did earlier in this thread. The Fed is making new pies out of thin air and selling them to the market for full price. After they've sold, there is more pie available and your pie is worth less.

With the bitcoin example, we both have the same amount of pie relative to the total amount of pie. We can just use smaller slices.

With the dollar example, we both have less pie relative to the total amount of pie. It doesn't much matter how we slice it, we lost value.

But that isn't true at all is it? Bitcoin is heavily marketed on the basis of 21 million total units, how do you think the market will react one trades start taking place in fractions of a Bitcoin? Or how about when the number sub units allowed is increased? Like I said if the Fed invented a superdollar worth 1 million or 1 billion dollars, would that allay the criticism? If not, why not?

Yes, but I am wondering if we aren't gradually migrating to a world where the satoshi is the common accounting unit, with "one Bitcoin" becoming less and less relevant for real operations. If Bitcoin really skyrockets, it'll make much more sense to think day to day operations in terms of the smallest available division, whose values will be comparable to the dollar. From that atomic unit, one could understand the network as being composed of 21x10^N of such units. In this sense, creating further divisions and increasing N has the same effect of devaluing the currency.

It's a matter of point of view, and points of view can change over time.

revans

sr. member

Activity: 336

Merit: 250

Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: revans on November 13, 2013, 12:07:47 PM

Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: revans on November 13, 2013, 11:55:43 AM

The dumbness is strong with this one.

Let me explain, as you clearly aren't smart enogh to grasp the idea yourself.

Bitcoin cultists talk of individual Bitcoins being worth hundreds of thousands of dollars eventually, which would mean very few people would ever own a whole Bitcoin and so would see their Bitcoin wealth expressed as sub units of a Bitcoin. Now let's say that it is decided that instead of 100M, that a bitcoin can now be divided into 1 billion sub units. As a result those people who hold any number of whole Bitcoins can buy 10x as much Bitcoin wealth from those who only have Bitcoin fractions.

You have a whole pie. It's cut into 4 slices.

I have half a pie. It's cut the same as yours, so I have 2 slices.

We decide that instead of 4 slices per pie, we are going to cut them smaller and make 8 slices per pie.

You have a whole pie. It's cut into 8 slices.

I have half a pie. It's cut the same as yours, so I have 4 slices.

What are you on about? We both still have the same fucking amount of pie!

Excellent.

Now explain to me how the US Dollar is debased compared to Bitcoin on this basis.

I already did earlier in this thread. The Fed is making new pies out of thin air and selling them to the market for full price. After they've sold, there is more pie available and your pie is worth less.

With the bitcoin example, we both have the same amount of pie relative to the total amount of pie. We can just use smaller slices.

With the dollar example, we both have less pie relative to the total amount of pie. It doesn't much matter how we slice it, we lost value.

But that isn't true at all is it? Bitcoin is heavily marketed on the basis of 21 million total units, how do you think the market will react one trades start taking place in fractions of a Bitcoin? Or how about when the number sub units allowed is increased? Like I said if the Fed invented a superdollar worth 1 million or 1 billion dollars, would that allay the criticism? If not, why not?

revans

sr. member

Activity: 336

Merit: 250

Quote from: Bitcopia on November 13, 2013, 12:13:09 PM

revans,

Thanks for all the laughs Cheesy

Take a few days to reflect on your argument before you keep posting...

My argument as now revealed is solid, I await a reply from anyone brave enough to take it on.

Bitcopia

hero member

Activity: 715

Merit: 500

revans,

Thanks for all the laughs Cheesy

Take a few days to reflect on your argument before you keep posting...

alincoln

full member

Activity: 175

Merit: 100

The problem is, everyone agrees that half a pie will satisfy only half of your hunger.

Bitcoin, however, is totally abstract, it's mathematics. The division is, thus, arbitrary. In the long term, adding more decimals will really make people wonder how many "accounting units" are in the system: if the original 21 million or the actual number of satoshis.

Please note I am all bullish on Bitcoin but the thesis that adding more decimals can lead to a flash crash should not be rapidly dismissed.

revans

sr. member

Activity: 336

Merit: 250

Quote from: notme on November 13, 2013, 12:06:11 PM

Quote from: revans on November 13, 2013, 11:47:53 AM

Quote from: BTCtrader71 on November 13, 2013, 11:01:43 AM

Quote from: revans on November 13, 2013, 10:47:43 AM

Quote from: RodeoX on November 13, 2013, 10:30:42 AM

Knowing that a dollar bill can be divided into 100 pennies does not change my opinion of dollars.

And what if it was decided one day that it could be divided into 1000?

Dividing a dollar into 1000 (or even 1,000,000) is not the same thing as debasement. Not the same thing at all. Just think about it for a while.

No, but for the sake of argument we are assuming that the dollar is like Bitcoin and limited to a certain number of dollar units.

So dollars are limited to a certain number of dollar units? That makes this hard to explain:

So, would your criticism of the dollar be made moot if a superdollar was created which was worth say 1 million normal dollars?

revans

sr. member

Activity: 336

Merit: 250

Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: revans on November 13, 2013, 11:55:43 AM

The dumbness is strong with this one.

Let me explain, as you clearly aren't smart enogh to grasp the idea yourself.

Bitcoin cultists talk of individual Bitcoins being worth hundreds of thousands of dollars eventually, which would mean very few people would ever own a whole Bitcoin and so would see their Bitcoin wealth expressed as sub units of a Bitcoin. Now let's say that it is decided that instead of 100M, that a bitcoin can now be divided into 1 billion sub units. As a result those people who hold any number of whole Bitcoins can buy 10x as much Bitcoin wealth from those who only have Bitcoin fractions.

You have a whole pie. It's cut into 4 slices.

I have half a pie. It's cut the same as yours, so I have 2 slices.

We decide that instead of 4 slices per pie, we are going to cut them smaller and make 8 slices per pie.

You have a whole pie. It's cut into 8 slices.

I have half a pie. It's cut the same as yours, so I have 4 slices.

What are you on about? We both still have the same fucking amount of pie!

Excellent.

Now explain to me how the US Dollar is debased compared to Bitcoin on this basis.

notme

legendary

Activity: 1904

Merit: 1002

Quote from: revans on November 13, 2013, 11:47:53 AM

Quote from: BTCtrader71 on November 13, 2013, 11:01:43 AM

Quote from: revans on November 13, 2013, 10:47:43 AM

Quote from: RodeoX on November 13, 2013, 10:30:42 AM

Knowing that a dollar bill can be divided into 100 pennies does not change my opinion of dollars.

And what if it was decided one day that it could be divided into 1000?

Dividing a dollar into 1000 (or even 1,000,000) is not the same thing as debasement. Not the same thing at all. Just think about it for a while.

No, but for the sake of argument we are assuming that the dollar is like Bitcoin and limited to a certain number of dollar units.

So dollars are limited to a certain number of dollar units? That makes this hard to explain:

Missionary

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Just trolling. Nothing to see here.

MaxBTC1

newbie

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Thanks for the chuckle OP

revans

sr. member

Activity: 336

Merit: 250

Quote from: Melbustus on November 13, 2013, 11:33:26 AM

Quote from: revans on November 13, 2013, 10:28:30 AM

Quote from: Melbustus on November 13, 2013, 10:19:36 AM

Where's that "not sure if trolling or just stupid pic"?

Divisibility doesn't reduce anyone's holdings. Control of 1 BTC is currently control off 100m satoshis. Increase divisibility by a million, and that same 1 BTC represents control of 100 trillion satoshis. It's all about percentages.

FYI, rational people quickly realize that extreme divisibility is a huge plus and a core property of ideal money.

Right, and you don't think some people might have issue with the value if an individual Bitcoin is sudden altered to be worth 100x or 1000x as many sub units? How is this any different from the currency debasement you bemoan in state fiat?

Because the percentage you control is the same!

Ah, here it is:

The dumbness is strong with this one.

Let me explain, as you clearly aren't smart enogh to grasp the idea yourself.

Bitcoin cultists talk of individual Bitcoins being worth hundreds of thousands of dollars eventually, which would mean very few people would ever own a whole Bitcoin and so would see their Bitcoin wealth expressed as sub units of a Bitcoin. Now let's say that it is decided that instead of 100M, that a bitcoin can now be divided into 1 billion sub units. As a result those people who hold any number of whole Bitcoins can buy 10x as much Bitcoin wealth from those who only have Bitcoin fractions. Goods priced in Bitcoins would obviously adjust, but there would be a period in which the imbalance would leave those with whole Bitcoins with a massive increase in purchasing power.

revans

sr. member

Activity: 336

Merit: 250

Quote from: BTCtrader71 on November 13, 2013, 11:01:43 AM

Quote from: revans on November 13, 2013, 10:47:43 AM

Quote from: RodeoX on November 13, 2013, 10:30:42 AM

Knowing that a dollar bill can be divided into 100 pennies does not change my opinion of dollars.

And what if it was decided one day that it could be divided into 1000?

Dividing a dollar into 1000 (or even 1,000,000) is not the same thing as debasement. Not the same thing at all. Just think about it for a while.

No, but for the sake of argument we are assuming that the dollar is like Bitcoin and limited to a certain number of dollar units.

BittBurger

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Activity: 924

Merit: 1001

Quote

The fact that you own 1 BTC and that is equivalent to owning 100,000,000 sub-units is EXACTLY why people are so excited.

Exactly. Because right now people are buying WHOLE bitcoins.
When the masses get inolved, they will only be able to afford 0.0001 BTC ....
Making mister smartypants with 50 whole BTC's insanely rich.
Why would he cash out and cause the system to crash? He is mister smartypants now.
He will be that much more rich because of the divisibility and the insane cost for just 1.0 BTC ... of which he has several.

As with *every* person who trash talks BTC, the OP hasn't understood BTC at all.

Wilhelm

legendary

Activity: 1652

Merit: 1265

Quote from: Rygon on November 13, 2013, 10:27:42 AM

1 dollar =2.5 mBTC
1 cent = 25 uBTC

I think it will become

1 dollar = 10,000 satoshi

Sounds like more money

Syke

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Activity: 3878

Merit: 1193

Quote from: revans on November 13, 2013, 10:47:43 AM

Quote from: RodeoX on November 13, 2013, 10:30:42 AM

Knowing that a dollar bill can be divided into 100 pennies does not change my opinion of dollars.

And what if it was decided one day that it could be divided into 1000?

LOL. Thanks for the brilliant comedy! Are you a professional comedian IRL?

ElectricMucus

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Activity: 1666

Merit: 1057

Marketing manager - GO MP

Bitcoin crashes on the next big bad news, it's that easy.

That could be, for instance that it comes out that the dollars in the mtgoxUSD order book aren't there anymore.

Melbustus

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Activity: 1722

Merit: 1004

Quote from: revans on November 13, 2013, 10:28:30 AM

Quote from: Melbustus on November 13, 2013, 10:19:36 AM

Where's that "not sure if trolling or just stupid pic"?

Divisibility doesn't reduce anyone's holdings. Control of 1 BTC is currently control off 100m satoshis. Increase divisibility by a million, and that same 1 BTC represents control of 100 trillion satoshis. It's all about percentages.

FYI, rational people quickly realize that extreme divisibility is a huge plus and a core property of ideal money.

Right, and you don't think some people might have issue with the value if an individual Bitcoin is sudden altered to be worth 100x or 1000x as many sub units? How is this any different from the currency debasement you bemoan in state fiat?

Because the percentage you control is the same!

Ah, here it is:

Topic: Bitcoin crashes when those investing realise 2 things - page 7. (Read 10472 times)