Bitcoin has no intrinsic value | Bitcointalksearch.org

yazher

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Quote from: e-lite.io on April 16, 2022, 08:30:53 PM

Is it really the best way to invest your money?

Because of the way Bitcoin generates value or becomes more expensive, it could potentially lose all its value and became worthless.
Who assures you that this will not happen?

Yeah! this kind of speculation has been said 10 years ago and now they regret what they've said and only you can hear them say 'if only" and "if only". You too, if you are not aware of what's the reality of bitcoins and the opportunity that they will bring to the masses, also lose the chance to buy low and sell high which most people have regret already. Now is not the time to speak about mere speculations rather we look at the crypto market and the liquidity, numbers, and companies that have already gotten their hands on bitcoins.

qwertyup23

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Quote from: e-lite.io on April 16, 2022, 08:30:53 PM

Is it really the best way to invest your money?

Because of the way Bitcoin generates value or becomes more expensive, it could potentially lose all its value and became worthless.
Who assures you that this will not happen?

This depends on your goal but the only person that can answer that is yourself.

If you have the means of investing for long-term, then I highly recommend so. There are lots of people (including myself) have profited in investing into cryptocurrencies (BTC to be specific). It has an inflationary nature where its value may increase substantially in the following years. But again, this is subject to certain risks that are associated with it.

If I where you, I suggest watching videos about BTC as there are tons of materials available in the internet. Upon learning everything, you decide if you think it is best investing.

franky1

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Quote from: Jody.Drummer on April 20, 2022, 01:53:47 AM

So is there a better place to invest our money now than here?

There is no guarantee that this is indeed the best and there is no guarantee that there are even better ones like bitcoin, right?

some say real estate is the big win.. but thats only if you have the money upfront to buy it whole and then flip it quick, then rinse and repeat..

however when "investing" into a house by paying a mortgage long term..
imagine the initial purchase price, for instance $200k. but with mortgage interest and the insurances, maintenance, security and modernisations that many mortgage companies like to see the person do to protect the property. the actually amount of money put into that soon turns into $300k-$400k over a few decades. meaning to break even you have to hope the housing market doubles by the time you want to sell.

also if during the mortgage, you lose your job and skip just a few payments. most banks claim that the first few years you are paying off the insurance and interest only and yet to pay anything towards a % of ownership of the actual property. and so losing your job in the first few years means its all gone, you lose everything. you get nothing back and lose the house.

Quote from: Jody.Drummer on April 20, 2022, 01:53:47 AM

We all know that this could be a blunder, but this is a risk, isn't there a risk when investing?
At least when we are here for now and in the next few years we will still be safe from the risk of total loss considering bitcoin is still growing

'total loss' is a bit of an over statement.
no one on the planet can mine for less than $30k and no one is buying for less than $40k
so even if you bought at say $45k . you will always find willing buyers for $30k plus
i think we are safely way above the realm of 'bottom' being below $20k. so the new 'zero' is not zero.

yes in the realm of possibilities the new 'zero' might go down to $25k with new asic efficiencies but no incremental hash competition. but to have a true 'zero' of 'zero'. bitcoin would literally need to have a massive unrepairable flaw/bug that is a 'killer' of crypto.

as long as bitcoin stays as POW ii cant see 'zero' being below $20k again. where this bottom slowly moves up over time.. but if it does a ethereum style 'detonation' flip to POS then yes the new 'zero' can go down to a couple dollars

Jody.Drummer

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So is there a better place to invest our money now than here?

There is no guarantee that this is indeed the best and there is no guarantee that there are even better ones like bitcoin, right?
We all know that this could be a blunder, but this is a risk, isn't there a risk when investing?
At least when we are here for now and in the next few years we will still be safe from the risk of total loss considering bitcoin is still growing

zasad@

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Quote from: e-lite.io on April 16, 2022, 08:30:53 PM

Is it really the best way to invest your money?

Because of the way Bitcoin generates value or becomes more expensive, it could potentially lose all its value and became worthless.
Who assures you that this will not happen?

Bitcoin has value because it cannot be printed. Bitcoin has a mining cost, which most cryptocurrencies do not have on the POS algorithm.If you invest in bitcoin, you won't get x10 at the end of the year, but you will keep your savings. So far, bitcoin is the most decentralized and independent cryptocurrency in the world.

franky1

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Quote from: Darker45 on April 19, 2022, 09:16:03 PM

I'm afraid much of Bitcoin's price right now is speculative, so decide for yourself if this means Bitcoin is a good or bad investment. Everything could potentially lose its value. Nobody is assuring anybody that something will remain valuable throughout eternity. But it seems to me the potential of Bitcoin is bright. I don't know if you share the same view.

bitcoins PRICE is speculative.. but that PRICE does sit within a value window
that window is between $30k to $70k right now

easiest way to see if a buy is a good or bad investment is to see if the price is good value or bad value in a easy to understand scale
EG

Darker45

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What is your standard for investment? You better follow that standard of yours whether it means investing in Bitcoin is good or bad. At least you won't be having regrets in the end. Or perhaps get to know Bitcoin more and reconsider your standard.

I'm afraid much of Bitcoin's price right now is speculative, so decide for yourself if this means Bitcoin is a good or bad investment. Everything could potentially lose its value. Nobody is assuring anybody that something will remain valuable throughout eternity. But it seems to me the potential of Bitcoin is bright. I don't know if you share the same view.

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Quote from: e-lite.io on April 16, 2022, 08:30:53 PM

Is it really the best way to invest your money?

Because of the way Bitcoin generates value or becomes more expensive, it could potentially lose all its value and became worthless.
Who assures you that this will not happen?

If you look at it solely as an investment opportunity then yeah, maybe there are better ways of pure investments, but some investors believe in the concept of bitcoin, its potential as a disruptive technology, and the potential of economic freedom it brings to the individual, so I would say that it has intrinsic value for some people, it depends how you look at it. To me, BTC and crypto, in general, are a continuation of '80s hacker culture to some extent.

BD Crypto

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If you have any doubt about Bitcoin then you should avoid investing on it.And we know that Bitcoin is much popular now and its truely decentralized.So better if invest how much you can afford.

PoolMinor

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Quote from: franky1 on April 16, 2022, 10:29:38 PM

real value is where there has been some real hard labour cost put into the assets creation/acquisition, whereby people refuse to sell at a loss because there is real cost involved. in that loss.

gold is only $1,800 instead of just $1 because it costs over $900 instead of $0.50 to mine it.

a $200k house is based on all the bricklaying and plumbing and modernisation updates being around $100k of costs.

understand that the speculative price is not the same as value. and that price is usually above value within a safe amount to still be deemed as within value.
..
however when things 'bubble', is when the PRICE (not to be confused with underlying value) when the speculative price is pushed out to a random number that has no bases of stability or rational thought.
EG when a house build cost was $100k but they are trying to market it for $5million.. that is a market bubble. and not sustainable.
houses being sold way above value is a signal that there will be a market crash.
...
take most POS coins. assuming there is 46,000 people 'validating' POS blocks
now assume there are ~2 coins mined per block every 15 seconds.
meaning 480 a hour, meaning 11520 a day, meaning 46,000 in 4 days

this suggesting each person probably gets 2 coin every 8 days

that makes their coin have an underlying cost of 96hours of passive computer time per coin. which at say 0.04/kwh puts an average desktop computer at half that cost of electric(500w). meaning 2cents per hour or $1.92 cost for mining POS on a popular coin with many thousands of people validating(mining)

well. what i have described is Ethereum after its 'detonation'.. whereby it shifts over from POW to POS
so although Ether while on POW has a mining cost of over $2000. when it switches to POW its value turns into $2

so watch Ethers value plummet by atleast 1000x
..
however bitcoins 'value' sits at a bottomline value of $30k(including the hardware costs) because right now the cheapest you cam mine bitcoin anywhere on the planet is about $30k. the most expensive electric cost using latest gen asic hardware costs included is about $70k

this value window of $30k-$70k. and then seeing that bitcoin PRICE sits happily within this value window shows that bitcoin is a good store of value, without having much of a hyper inflated bubble of speculations pushing the price way outside the value limits.

but with that said. bitcoin could lose hashrate competition and next gen miners could be more efficient which could bring the cost value down and thus cause the price to come down too.. but this is less probable compared to the known drop ether is about to experience soon

I feel that we are similar in our understanding of what gives Bitcoin its present value.

Though I believe the blockchain is the real value of the Bitcoin network and the coin only acts as lubrication for the needs of the distributed ledger. The POW is correlated with the cost of mining, the block reward gives incentive for the cost of equipment and electricity as well as noise/heat pollution.
The tx fee is the price to store information on the ledger.

On a side note, I posit that the mining industry (ASIC and GPU) manufacturers have a hand in price development because they control the distribution of mining equipment. In the beginning Bitmain was only accepting Bitcoin for machines to produce Bitcoin. Seemingly rather self-fulfilling.

There is a documentary (The Price of Everything) that explains why the art industry keeps its prices in check. May shed some light on why BTFD is such an important concept when it comes to Bitcoin.

https://soap2day.cool/watch-movie/watch-the-price-of-everything-free-939.5368558

-PoolMinor

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Quote from: e-lite.io on April 16, 2022, 08:30:53 PM

Is it really the best way to invest your money?

Because of the way Bitcoin generates value or becomes more expensive, it could potentially lose all its value and became worthless.
Who assures you that this will not happen?

When you invest your money in any asset a certain degree of risk needs to be accepted, if for you the risk that investing in bitcoin entails is too high for you for one reason or another I do no have any problem with it, find another asset in which you are comfortable to invest then do so and call it a day, it is that simple, now technically there is not really anything that has intrinsic value as things do not have value just for existing, they have value for their characteristics, and if you think that a decentralized network in which you can send your money all over the world without any third party interfering with it has a value of zero then that is your call, but do not expect everyone to agree.

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Quote from: e-lite.io on April 16, 2022, 08:30:53 PM

Is it really the best way to invest your money?

Because of the way Bitcoin generates value or becomes more expensive, it could potentially lose all its value and became worthless.
Who assures you that this will not happen?

I can see the need for low-cost, cross-border money transfers, so do you think this has intrinsic value
Nowadays, people are gradually getting a better view of Bitcoin. With its massive adoption, the demand for it is not small, and the supply is limited, not to mention the loss due to the holders, the value of BTC will be able to go further.

BitcoinFX

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https://youtu.be/DsAVx0u9Cw4 ... Dr. WHO < KLF

"... #Bitcoin is a commodity money, "digital cash system".

- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodity_money

"Commodity money is money whose value comes from a commodity of which it is made."

The intrinsic (base) value of bitcoin is from electricity, CPU time and cryptography (math / pow).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodity_money "

- https://twitter.com/BitcoinFX_XBT/status/1510943103431380992

Commodity money wiki - Excerpt: "Commodity money is money whose value comes from a commodity of which it is made. Commodity money consists of objects having value or use in themselves (intrinsic value) as well as their value in buying goods. This is in contrast to representative money, which has no intrinsic value but represents something of value such as gold or silver, in which it can be exchanged, and fiat money, which derives its value from having been established as money by government regulation. ..."

...

"When satoshi wrote the whitepaper and launched #Bitcoin #BTC had zero dollar value.

The first exchange rates were calculated as follows ...

- https://web.archive.org/web/20091229132610/http://newlibertystandard.wetpaint.com/page/Exchange+Rate

Excerpt: "Our exchange rate is calculated by dividing $1.00 by the average amount of electricity required ..." ..."

- https://twitter.com/BitcoinFX_XBT/status/1510945795255775239

...

" ... "... to run a computer with high CPU for a year, 1331.5 kWh, multiplied by the the average residential cost of electricity in the United States for the previous year, ..." ..."

- https://twitter.com/BitcoinFX_XBT/status/1510946020640841730

...

"Excerpt: "... $0.1136, divided by 12 months divided by the number of bitcoins generated by my computer over the past 30 days."

- https://web.archive.org/web/20091229132610/http://newlibertystandard.wetpaint.com/page/Exchange+Rate

Technically only bartering existed when satoshi released #Bitcoin to the public."

- https://twitter.com/BitcoinFX_XBT/status/1510946817227333635

...

"Arguably, bitcoins have always had a (base) "intrinsic value" as intangible commodity money, as above.

Of course, today's pricing stems from other market factors, finite supply (supply and demand) etc, etc.

Something is only ever worth what someone else is willing to exchange!"

- https://twitter.com/BitcoinFX_XBT/status/1510948619536547843

Cool

DOH!

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Quote from: e-lite.io on April 16, 2022, 08:30:53 PM

Is it really the best way to invest your money?

I think bitcoin is not the best way to invest your money. You still have a lot of options and decisions to make but the free market is the core of bitcoin, the reaction to bitcoin's value is the free market. Fundamentally in my opinion, bitcoin is the hope to change the financial game - where the free market gets a free currency. Hesitation is a normal state in investing but looking at bitcoin's value history represents a testament to the fact that bitcoin's real value derives from the beliefs people aspire to.

suzanne5223

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Quote from: e-lite.io on April 16, 2022, 08:30:53 PM

Is it really the best way to invest your money?

Says who that Bitcoin has no intrinsic value? Is this your lack of understanding of Bitcoin's potential impression or you're just a troll?
You don't need to ask if Bitcoin is the best way to invest money, all you need to do is to check the performance of the Bitcoin market when the world businesses and economies barely survive during the total lockdown.
Check the performance of the market over the years right from its creation and the number of people who are making financial freedom through Bitcoin.

Quote from: e-lite.io on April 16, 2022, 08:30:53 PM

Because of the way Bitcoin generates value or becomes more expensive, it could potentially lose all its value and became worthless.
Who assures you that this will not happen?

If Bitcoin will be worthless, it would vaporize when the government, SEC, the Chinese shut down mining, etc. Besides, the government now understands that Bitcoin is inevitable and if it is going to be worthless the institutions won't be the major investors in this year's market.

fiulpro

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Quote from: e-lite.io on April 16, 2022, 08:30:53 PM

Is it really the best way to invest your money?

Because of the way Bitcoin generates value or becomes more expensive, it could potentially lose all its value and became worthless.
Who assures you that this will not happen?

With the news like :
https://www.business2community.com/crypto-news/michael-saylor-says-its-bitcoin-initiative-has-been-a-success-for-microstrategy-02468422

https://www.google.com/amp/s/cointelegraph.com/news/bitcoin-hodlers-targeting-100k-is-what-s-preventing-40-price-drawdown-data-suggests/amp

Companies and people are already investing in Bitcoins even right now and are looking forward to grow their investments rather sell them, sooner or later one has to understand that it's more fragile to invest in fiats since government does not have a control of war and pandemic or things like that. If the world collapse we wouldn't have much to hang with therefore with Bitcoins with many whales unwilling to sell their coins we still have a chance to not only invest and grow but also answer such questions with solid ground.

Do you back up Gold ?
No ! Why ?
That's because gold is essential, it has its own intrinsic value which means that it does not need the backing up. It's the same with Bitcoins to an extent. It's intrinsic value comes from the people who are holding it and who trusts it.

franky1

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intrinsic value, is the value in-of-itself..
so all the idiots thinking bitcoin needs to be backed by something separate.. have no clue

if you think intrinsic value is based on some thing separate a thing needs to be backed by that has nothing to do with the thing your valuing.. your wrong

EG bank notes in the 1920's intrinsic value was not that they were backed by gold.
banks notes intrinsic values(features) was the laws that ensured that bank notes were usable to pay court fines, taxes and retail products far easier than another currency.
the intrinsic value(financial) is based on things like minimum wage that give it a notable minimum value.

bitcoin would not exist if it were not for the mining. so mining is the essential thing of bitcoin

take ethereum. its intrinsic value is also PoW mining which gives ethereum the base value of atleast $2k. (no im not talking about the $3k price)
when ethereum 'detonates' to become PoS. that intrinsic value switches to PoS which has a value in of itself of ~$1.50 yep over 1000x less value. meaning that you will expect a huge price correction after the detonation because everyone suddenly PoS signing blocks for only a couple dollars would happily sell down the market price all the way down to maybe $3 and still profit

yep PoS intrinsic value is far far less than PoW intrinsic value.
as for the intrinsic values(features) well ethereum is still begging the many sidechains and tokenisations so ethereums intrinsic values stay the same, but this is not enough to keep the value(financial) at the same support

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Quote from: nankers on April 19, 2022, 02:46:57 AM

In my view, What is the intrinsic value of Bitcoin?
Many argue that Bitcoin has no intrinsic value because it is not backed by anything and does not generate cash flow.
Moreover, Bitcoin is actually backed by a very secure network that is used as a preeminent asset. We can see that there are five factors that become the intrinsic value of Bitcoin, namely:
1. Security
2. Decentralization
3. Scarcity
4. Eternity/ Immutable
5. Utilities

Conclusion
The intrinsic value of Bitcoin cannot be compared with other traditional assets because Bitcoin is a new type of asset. Bitcoin is still trying to find a place among other assets, and it is too early for us to determine Bitcoin's intrinsic value unanimously. The intrinsic value of bitcoin is likely to change based on people's perceptions and the future growth of Bitcoin adoption.

For an asset to have intrinsic value it shouldn't necessarily be backed by something or generating "cash flow." Take gold, for example: what gold is backed by? Obviously, this would be a stupid question to ask because it is gold that has always been used to support the value of other things but not the other way around. Does gold have intrinsic value? If we forget for a moment that value is always subjective, then we may say that it is the unique physical characteristics of gold that give it the intrinsic value that the vast majority of people recognize. Can we say the same when it comes to bitcoin? Like gold, Bitcoin does have unique traits that some people have already managed to understand and accept as part of their life. However, the problem is these unique characteristics of Bitcoin can't exist on their own, they can't survive without human beings supporting them by running full nodes, mining, and forming the necessary community of developers and users. In other words, bitcoin doesn't have intrinsic value because it disappears if stopped being supported.

Kakmakr

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"In finance, the intrinsic value of an asset usually refers to a value calculated on simplified assumptions. For example, the intrinsic value of an option is based on the current market value of the underlying instrument, but ignores the possibility of future fluctuations and the time value of money." - Source : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intrinsic_value_(finance)

Now let's make examples of other digital things that has value : Skins and add-ons in Online Games like Counter-Strike. (People pay $10 000 for a unique skin for their 9mm) / Virtual property in the Metaverse has market value, because there are a market for it.

You do not have to touch something ..for it to have value. Wink

nankers

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In my view, What is the intrinsic value of Bitcoin?
Many argue that Bitcoin has no intrinsic value because it is not backed by anything and does not generate cash flow.
Moreover, Bitcoin is actually backed by a very secure network that is used as a preeminent asset. We can see that there are five factors that become the intrinsic value of Bitcoin, namely:
1. Security
2. Decentralization
3. Scarcity
4. Eternity/ Immutable
5. Utilities

Conclusion
The intrinsic value of Bitcoin cannot be compared with other traditional assets because Bitcoin is a new type of asset. Bitcoin is still trying to find a place among other assets, and it is too early for us to determine Bitcoin's intrinsic value unanimously. The intrinsic value of bitcoin is likely to change based on people's perceptions and the future growth of Bitcoin adoption.

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