Topic: Bitcoin has no intrinsic value - page 3. (Read 499 times)

I love how you always sneak your own messed up opinion about LN into every conversation

The problem is now just the speculation but it is the fact that price is the ONLY thing we see being discussed about bitcoin. For example if you go to r/bitcoin it is all memes and price and very little is discussed about the technology if at all.

Funny thing is that I have only seen you make these statements not anybody else!
I personally believe that bitcoin blocks need to scale to match the increasing demand but at the same time LN as a second layer "bitcoin network" is offering very useful utilities that the blockchain can never offer.

OP,you sound kinda butthurt.Did you get scammed or something?
Your post doesn't make any sense.


This doesn't make any sense.Bitcoin doesn't "generate value" by itself.The value of Bitcoin is determined by the mining costs and the supply/demand for Bitcoins.
Bitcoin gets more expensive,but it might get worthless some day.Yes,and so what.This applies to every financial asset around the world(maybe except gold).Do you think that Tesla,Amazon,Facebook,Apple stocks won't become worthless some day?Nothing lasts forever.
The "Bitcoin doesn't have instrinsic value" mantra that has been repeated by all the BTC haters have gotten completely meaningless at this point.Repeating the mantra one more time won't make it meaningful.

sidenote. im keeping this quote for later use when pooya wants to advertise his favoured altnet while saying bitcoin utility cant cope as a currency (contradition)

anyways...
value and values are two different terms.. the term with the 's' (values) is the utility and feature, benefits. the term without the 's' is a financial measure

bitcoins values(features utility and benefit) have many.
bitcoins value (financial) is not just some random number. its actually based on actual things. and due to mining and other things. it has less chance of 'going to zero' than many POS coins.

POS coins have little to no value or values. but POW coins have value. and in some cases of pow altcoins have values too. but bitcoin has the most of both


i agree its not money out of thin air. there is actually alot of economics going on..
yes advertising bitcoin as 'to the moon' and '$100k in 2021/2 or $1m by 2023 is silly exaggerated advertising that needs to stop. because thats just hyping up bitcoin and trying to promise long term possibilities as things that are (falsely) promised to happen short term

. but this is where people need to learn about the VALUE and not the PRICE.
i personally never care for the day-to-day price speculation. i prefer to look at the store of value window ongoing which moves up at a more steady pace.
EG the $4k-$20k window of 2018 now being the $30k-$70k window of 2022

we will not reach $100k in 2022 nor $1m by 2023, but those PRICES may happen in a more distant future. as long as idiots dont try tarnishing/hinder/stifle bitcoin utility to try offramping people to other networks. by claiming that bitcoin cant work as a currency..
but if bitcoin was to actually get back to its 2009-2015 plan of growing and scaling THE BITCOIN network. bitcoin has the better chance of achieving higher store of value numbers.

(subtle hint how you(pooya) are part of the group that wants to claim bitcoin is useless as a currency and people should play on other networks!!(facepalm))

Government issues paper money by putting gold as a reserve in most cases but these days the printer is just printing the money without any mechanism causing extreme inflation. May I ask you who will assure that this excess printing of fiat money should not happen?

This shows that even the assurances by the government are useless and fake. So better do not look for assurances but look at the bitcoin model. There is no flaw in the bitcoin model and it's hard to believe its demand could go down when there is too much inflation on the alternative currency (fiat money).

Bitcoin do have intrinsic value, you can't generate Bitcoin freely without any cost since you need to mine using mining rigs, electricity, and the other maintenance cost. It's different with Bitcoin's value; the use case, decentralize, no one control, widely used, etc. Also it's different with Bitcoin's price as we can see on any exchanges the price is around $40K.

Bitcoin could become worthless if there's another better technology comes up, but... I don't see any crypto or technology which better than Bitcoin until now.

Forget best or worse, bitcoin is not even an investment. Bitcoin is a currency and as the only existing decentralized censorship resistant payment system it offers a lot of utilities for people all around the world and utility means intrinsic value.

That's been the biggest problem newbies have been facing, bitcoin is advertised to them as an investment that will give them a lot of money out of thin air! Everywhere they look there is only talks about the price, how much it has gone up or how much it can go up. Unfortunately many of you guys don't bother doing any research yourselves either to see what the hell this Bitcoin you are buying is!

If you are going to claim that Bitcoin has no intrinsic value, you would do well to explain why it does not. To me you've seen it written somewhere without stopping to think much about what it means.

I've seen several reasons to defend that, such as it doesn't produce cash flows, or that it's not backed by any government. In general, the arguments used are garbage. In the first case, we can see that there are many things that don't produce cash flows and do have intrinsic value, such as a mansion you live in that is worth $10M. The second is laughable, because the currencies backed by the government we can see that they have value but decreasing value that tends to 0, something that we can see taken to the extreme in economies that end up dollarizing as in South America. And on the other hand, if that were the case, gold would not have any value either because it is not backed by governments.

I think there are more arguments, but instead of trying to show why they are wrong I will go to the positive part. Bitcoin, yes it has intrinsic value because:

1) It is the best invention we have to store and transfer value, especially in medium and large amounts.
2) It is scarce, and with a total limit to its production.

real value is where there has been some real hard labour cost put into the assets creation/acquisition, whereby people refuse to sell at a loss because there is real cost involved.  in that loss.

gold is only $1,800 instead of just $1 because it costs over $900 instead of $0.50 to mine it.

a $200k house is based on all the bricklaying and plumbing and modernisation updates being around $100k of costs.

understand that the speculative price is not the same as value. and that price is usually above value within a safe amount to still be deemed as within value.
..
however when things 'bubble', is when the PRICE (not to be confused with underlying value) when the speculative price is pushed out to a random number that has no bases of stability or rational thought.
EG when a house build cost was $100k but they are trying to market it for $5million.. that is a market bubble. and not sustainable.
houses being sold way above value is a signal that there will be a market crash.
...
take most POS coins. assuming there is 46,000 people 'validating' POS blocks
now assume there are ~2 coins mined per block every 15 seconds.
meaning 480 a hour, meaning 11520 a day, meaning 46,000 in 4 days

this suggesting each person probably gets 2 coin every 8 days

that makes their coin have an underlying cost of 96hours of passive computer time per coin. which at say 0.04/kwh puts an average desktop computer at half that cost of electric(500w). meaning 2cents per hour or $1.92 cost for mining POS on a popular coin with many thousands of people validating(mining)

well. what i have described is Ethereum after its 'detonation'.. whereby it shifts over from POW to POS
so although Ether while on POW has a mining cost of over $2000. when it switches to POW its value turns into $2

so watch Ethers value plummet by atleast 1000x
..
however bitcoins 'value' sits at a bottomline value of $30k(including the hardware costs) because right now the cheapest you cam mine bitcoin anywhere on the planet is about $30k. the most expensive electric cost using latest gen asic hardware costs included is about $70k

this value window of $30k-$70k. and then seeing that bitcoin PRICE sits happily within this value window shows that bitcoin is a good store of value, without having much of a hyper inflated bubble of speculations pushing the price way outside the value limits.

but with that said. bitcoin could lose hashrate competition and next gen miners could be more efficient which could bring the cost value down and thus cause the price to come down too.. but this is less probable compared to the known drop ether is about to experience soon

The "best" way to invest your money is subjective, and will differ depending on personal situation.

It technically could, just like how your business could technically end up being bankrupt and the business stock you invested in going bankrupt.

Nothing. There's no such thing as guarantees with anything.

There is no definitive answer to this. Otherwise nobody would invest in anything else anymore, right. My advice is to do your own research and decide for yourself if you believe Bitcoin is a project that has a prosperous future or if it's doomed to fail.

Everything could 'potentially lose all its value', the reason for that is rarely that it 'generates value', though. That sentence makes absolutely no sense.

Nobody assures this will not happen. Nobody. This is freedom money. Free market and that's pretty much it.

Feel free to read the whitepaper, it's a relatively short and enjoyable read.

I'm misquoting satoshi here, but I like this sentence:

Is it really the best way to invest your money?

Because of the way Bitcoin generates value or becomes more expensive, it could potentially lose all its value and became worthless.
Who assures you that this will not happen?