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Topic: Bitcoin Is Useless Because It's Too Easy Too Get Robbed - page 2. (Read 5791 times)

Serge
legendary
Activity: 1050
Merit: 1000
Re: Bitcoin Is Useless Because It's Too Easy Too Get Robbed
June 25, 2011, 03:27:14 PM
#38
Quote from: BTC Economist on June 25, 2011, 03:05:24 PM
Quote from: Serge on June 25, 2011, 03:00:06 PM
Quote from: BTC Economist on June 25, 2011, 02:45:05 PM
Quote from: cypherdoc on June 25, 2011, 02:19:10 PM
Quote from: BTC Economist on June 25, 2011, 01:55:57 PM
Quote from: Serge on June 25, 2011, 01:54:42 PM
Quote from: BTC Economist on June 25, 2011, 01:50:49 PM
Quote from: Serge on June 25, 2011, 01:49:48 PM
Quote from: BTC Economist on June 25, 2011, 01:48:28 PM
This is the fundamental problem with the currency and why I am expecting a near-term price of between $7-$9.
why not <$1 then?

I said near-term.  The market is so infantile and speculative that it's going to remain above its fundamental price for quite some time.
Please excuse my ignorace, but how do you determine this 'fundamental' price?  got any formula to share?

Look into asset pricing models.

stop bullshitting.  you have no idea.

Since you don't want to do research: R = Rf + B(Rm - Rf)

go from there...

Could you please fill in the numbers so we can clearly see BTC price = $7-9
Thanks

No because this will give you the % expected return and then you use that in a discounted cash flow model to get the price.

I still do see how what you're doing isn't speculation, just the same as those who count "what if % of global economy was in BTC and should cost xxxx". Please correct me if i'm wrong.
Astro
sr. member
Activity: 284
Merit: 250
Re: Bitcoin Is Useless Because It's Too Easy Too Get Robbed
June 25, 2011, 03:23:27 PM
#37
Step one to being taken seriously on the bitcoin forums: Don't use "BTC Economist" as your username!
relative
newbie
Activity: 56
Merit: 0
Re: Bitcoin Is Useless Because It's Too Easy Too Get Robbed
June 25, 2011, 03:10:06 PM
#36
any kind of bitcoin valuation in which you don't include a markup for knuckleheads who think bitcoin will replace all existing currencies and pour their live savings into it because of this leads you nowhere near 7$.
BTC Economist
member
Activity: 112
Merit: 10
Re: Bitcoin Is Useless Because It's Too Easy Too Get Robbed
June 25, 2011, 03:05:24 PM
#35
Quote from: Serge on June 25, 2011, 03:00:06 PM
Quote from: BTC Economist on June 25, 2011, 02:45:05 PM
Quote from: cypherdoc on June 25, 2011, 02:19:10 PM
Quote from: BTC Economist on June 25, 2011, 01:55:57 PM
Quote from: Serge on June 25, 2011, 01:54:42 PM
Quote from: BTC Economist on June 25, 2011, 01:50:49 PM
Quote from: Serge on June 25, 2011, 01:49:48 PM
Quote from: BTC Economist on June 25, 2011, 01:48:28 PM
This is the fundamental problem with the currency and why I am expecting a near-term price of between $7-$9.
why not <$1 then?

I said near-term.  The market is so infantile and speculative that it's going to remain above its fundamental price for quite some time.
Please excuse my ignorace, but how do you determine this 'fundamental' price?  got any formula to share?

Look into asset pricing models.

stop bullshitting.  you have no idea.

Since you don't want to do research: R = Rf + B(Rm - Rf)

go from there...

Could you please fill in the numbers so we can clearly see BTC price = $7-9
Thanks

No because this will give you the % expected return and then you use that in a discounted cash flow model to get the price.
stic.man
full member
Activity: 168
Merit: 100
Re: Bitcoin Is Useless Because It's Too Easy Too Get Robbed
June 25, 2011, 03:01:14 PM
#34
Quote from: BTC Economist on June 25, 2011, 02:55:34 PM
Quote from: stic.man on June 25, 2011, 02:50:31 PM
i remember that formula from sophomore econ too!

Hmm did you derive it there too? 

I dunno man, that's a lot of jameson ago
Serge
legendary
Activity: 1050
Merit: 1000
Re: Bitcoin Is Useless Because It's Too Easy Too Get Robbed
June 25, 2011, 03:00:06 PM
#33
Quote from: BTC Economist on June 25, 2011, 02:45:05 PM
Quote from: cypherdoc on June 25, 2011, 02:19:10 PM
Quote from: BTC Economist on June 25, 2011, 01:55:57 PM
Quote from: Serge on June 25, 2011, 01:54:42 PM
Quote from: BTC Economist on June 25, 2011, 01:50:49 PM
Quote from: Serge on June 25, 2011, 01:49:48 PM
Quote from: BTC Economist on June 25, 2011, 01:48:28 PM
This is the fundamental problem with the currency and why I am expecting a near-term price of between $7-$9.
why not <$1 then?

I said near-term.  The market is so infantile and speculative that it's going to remain above its fundamental price for quite some time.
Please excuse my ignorace, but how do you determine this 'fundamental' price?  got any formula to share?

Look into asset pricing models.

stop bullshitting.  you have no idea.

Since you don't want to do research: R = Rf + B(Rm - Rf)

go from there...

Could you please fill in the numbers so we can clearly see BTC price = $7-9
Thanks
BTC Economist
member
Activity: 112
Merit: 10
Re: Bitcoin Is Useless Because It's Too Easy Too Get Robbed
June 25, 2011, 02:55:34 PM
#32
Quote from: stic.man on June 25, 2011, 02:50:31 PM
i remember that formula from sophomore econ too!

Hmm did you derive it there too? 
stic.man
full member
Activity: 168
Merit: 100
Re: Bitcoin Is Useless Because It's Too Easy Too Get Robbed
June 25, 2011, 02:50:31 PM
#31
i remember that formula from sophomore econ too!
cypherdoc
legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1002
Re: Bitcoin Is Useless Because It's Too Easy Too Get Robbed
June 25, 2011, 02:49:02 PM
#30
Quote from: BTC Economist on June 25, 2011, 02:45:05 PM
Quote from: cypherdoc on June 25, 2011, 02:19:10 PM
Quote from: BTC Economist on June 25, 2011, 01:55:57 PM
Quote from: Serge on June 25, 2011, 01:54:42 PM
Quote from: BTC Economist on June 25, 2011, 01:50:49 PM
Quote from: Serge on June 25, 2011, 01:49:48 PM
Quote from: BTC Economist on June 25, 2011, 01:48:28 PM
This is the fundamental problem with the currency and why I am expecting a near-term price of between $7-$9.
why not <$1 then?

I said near-term.  The market is so infantile and speculative that it's going to remain above its fundamental price for quite some time.
Please excuse my ignorace, but how do you determine this 'fundamental' price?  got any formula to share?

Look into asset pricing models.

stop bullshitting.  you have no idea.

Since you don't want to do research: R = Rf + B(Rm - Rf)

go from there...

just b/c u throw up a formula u think that makes u an expert on market pricing?  in an infant industry like btc?

tell me exactly what the price of the Dow should be at this moment?  how about the USD?  what about the Euro?  

you can't b/c if u could you'd be making trillions in forecasting fees.  markets are inherently unpredictable and screw 99% of the ppl trying to guess the right price.
BTC Economist
member
Activity: 112
Merit: 10
Re: Bitcoin Is Useless Because It's Too Easy Too Get Robbed
June 25, 2011, 02:45:05 PM
#29
Quote from: cypherdoc on June 25, 2011, 02:19:10 PM
Quote from: BTC Economist on June 25, 2011, 01:55:57 PM
Quote from: Serge on June 25, 2011, 01:54:42 PM
Quote from: BTC Economist on June 25, 2011, 01:50:49 PM
Quote from: Serge on June 25, 2011, 01:49:48 PM
Quote from: BTC Economist on June 25, 2011, 01:48:28 PM
This is the fundamental problem with the currency and why I am expecting a near-term price of between $7-$9.
why not <$1 then?

I said near-term.  The market is so infantile and speculative that it's going to remain above its fundamental price for quite some time.
Please excuse my ignorace, but how do you determine this 'fundamental' price?  got any formula to share?

Look into asset pricing models.

stop bullshitting.  you have no idea.

Since you don't want to do research: R = Rf + B(Rm - Rf)

go from there...
SmokeAndMirrors
full member
Activity: 168
Merit: 100
Re: Bitcoin Is Useless Because It's Too Easy Too Get Robbed
June 25, 2011, 02:33:58 PM
#28
Quote from: bonker on June 25, 2011, 01:43:45 PM
No one yet has answered this problem: Its too easy to get robbed. You send someone some bitcoins and they can just walk! It's just like posting cash to a stranger, totally stupid.
No-one posts cash to stranger, so no-one will send bitcoins! It's obvious!

In a face to face transaction, use cash - cus its anonymous.
In an internet transaction, use Paypal etc, cuz its the only way not to get robbed.

Add escrow to bitcoin and you've gained nothing now. The whole project is totally pointless!

Why can no-one give me a robust resolution. By robust, I mean not some juvenile, hand waving gibberish arguement.

Funny you say paypal is the only way not to get robbed. It's the same as sending bitcoins, except once you receive the item you do a chargeback. Paypal doesn't care, just like bitcoins doesn't care. If you're not safe with transactions, you will get robbed. Same with pretty much any other scenario dealing with money.

Use clearcoin, otherwise maybe you should not deal with currencies at all if this is your concern.
Astro
sr. member
Activity: 284
Merit: 250
Re: Bitcoin Is Useless Because It's Too Easy Too Get Robbed
June 25, 2011, 02:28:27 PM
#27
Quote from: bonker on June 25, 2011, 02:15:30 PM
This isn't a question of "wallet security", it's a problem of transaction fraud.

If you're too squeamish to use it, don't. 
TraderTimm
legendary
Activity: 2408
Merit: 1121
Re: Bitcoin Is Useless Because It's Too Easy Too Get Robbed
June 25, 2011, 02:27:52 PM
#26
Quote from: bonker on June 25, 2011, 02:15:30 PM

Dude, you're turning out to be a prime dickbag. This isn't a question of "wallet security", it's a problem of transaction fraud. Seeing as you couldn't come up with an answer, some others have come up with a partial solution. But there are still glaring holes in Bitcoin that will see it burn in an early grave if it ever hits the general population in its present form..

Uh oh, name-calling - let me get something to cry into.

Transaction fraud discussions are in the forums too, you know, under the heading "bitcoin escrow". Of course, you'd know this if you had bothered to look. Do you research anything you talk about, ever? I'm quite sure by the time any of these problems are solved, it won't be because you posted a few hurried statements about bitcoin in your spare time.

Either offer some kind of strategy yourself, learn about the complexities, or stay out of the way of those who will solve it for you.

Astro
sr. member
Activity: 284
Merit: 250
Re: Bitcoin Is Useless Because It's Too Easy Too Get Robbed
June 25, 2011, 02:25:24 PM
#25
Quote from: BTC Economist on June 25, 2011, 01:48:28 PM
This is the fundamental problem with the ANY currency and why I am expecting a near-term price of "I have no fucking idea what I'm talking about."

fixed
Stephen Gornick
legendary
Activity: 2506
Merit: 1010
Re: Bitcoin Is Useless Because It's Too Easy Too Get Robbed
June 25, 2011, 02:24:21 PM
#24
Quote from: o on June 25, 2011, 01:59:40 PM
If you are fear, you can use the service like https://clearcoin.appspot.com/ that hold the money so that you can release it to the other one until you receive the product.

Unfortunately, ClearCoin is now closed to new escrow listings.
  - http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=21659.0
cypherdoc
legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1002
Re: Bitcoin Is Useless Because It's Too Easy Too Get Robbed
June 25, 2011, 02:19:10 PM
#23
Quote from: BTC Economist on June 25, 2011, 01:55:57 PM
Quote from: Serge on June 25, 2011, 01:54:42 PM
Quote from: BTC Economist on June 25, 2011, 01:50:49 PM
Quote from: Serge on June 25, 2011, 01:49:48 PM
Quote from: BTC Economist on June 25, 2011, 01:48:28 PM
This is the fundamental problem with the currency and why I am expecting a near-term price of between $7-$9.
why not <$1 then?

I said near-term.  The market is so infantile and speculative that it's going to remain above its fundamental price for quite some time.
Please excuse my ignorace, but how do you determine this 'fundamental' price?  got any formula to share?

Look into asset pricing models.

stop bullshitting.  you have no idea.
Denicen
newbie
Activity: 46
Merit: 0
Re: Bitcoin Is Useless Because It's Too Easy Too Get Robbed
June 25, 2011, 02:16:09 PM
#22
Huge lol at this thread:
If bitcoin were useless then no one would want to steal it from you.
bonker
hero member
Activity: 784
Merit: 502
Re: Bitcoin Is Useless Because It's Too Easy Too Get Robbed
June 25, 2011, 02:15:30 PM
#21
Quote from: TraderTimm on June 25, 2011, 02:09:54 PM
Quote from: bonker on June 25, 2011, 02:07:02 PM
Quote from: TraderTimm on June 25, 2011, 01:53:17 PM
Bonker doesn't like to read. All the answers are there, even if you refuse to look them up.

Guess its another troll-erday.


I guess TraderTimm doesn't like to write. Can you at least provide a link to a robust resolution? Because I haven't found one so far

Given that there have been a bazillion posts about wallet security, the equivalence of bitcoin to cash and the attendant problems, I'm sure if you were able to do your own homework instead of monkey-hammering out your poorly researched opinions, you might be able to learn something.

But I'm not holding my breath over it.



Dude, you're turning out to be a prime dickbag. This isn't a question of "wallet security", it's a problem of transaction fraud. Seeing as you couldn't come up with an answer, some others have come up with a partial solution. But there are still glaring holes in Bitcoin that will see it burn in an early grave if it ever hits the general population in its present form..
Grant
full member
Activity: 210
Merit: 100
Re: Bitcoin Is Useless Because It's Too Easy Too Get Robbed
June 25, 2011, 02:14:45 PM
#20
Quote from: bonker on June 25, 2011, 01:43:45 PM
No one yet has answered this problem: Its too easy to get robbed. You send someone some bitcoins and they can just walk! It's just like posting cash to a stranger, totally stupid.
No-one posts cash to stranger, so no-one will send bitcoins! It's obvious!

In a face to face transaction, use cash - cus its anonymous.
In an internet transaction, use Paypal etc, cuz its the only way not to get robbed.

Add escrow to bitcoin and you've gained nothing now. The whole project is totally pointless!

Why can no-one give me a robust resolution. By robust, I mean not some juvenile, hand waving gibberish arguement.

While you're right "its easy to get robbed" (until we have more robust infrastructure). For trading/shopping i have to use your argument against BTC, against using paypal/cc over the net. What happens when a seller accepts pp/cc, they INCREASE their price similar to the risk they take (of stolen cc/pp or simply other dispute), with bitcoin the "seller beaware attitude" turns into a "buyer beaware attitude", so its possible to run a "shop" at lower costs with BTC as opposed to cc/pp. This is the problem i have with our RL system, regardless of an outcome of a buyer/seller dispute the creditcard company ALWAYS profit, the seller usually loses and all other buyers pay the price for all of this.

bonker
hero member
Activity: 784
Merit: 502
Re: Bitcoin Is Useless Because It's Too Easy Too Get Robbed
June 25, 2011, 02:11:54 PM
#19
Quote from: gusti on June 25, 2011, 01:58:27 PM
Quote from: bonker on June 25, 2011, 01:54:12 PM
Quote from: gusti on June 25, 2011, 01:47:22 PM
well, let me just say that I made more than 200 bitcoin transactions with people I don't know, and I never was robbed

I suppose you could publish your list of trusted addys to the community. That might be an approach to the problem, I suppose?

Also, remember the people using bitcoins right now generally believe in the project and want it to succeed. You know nice guys. So I suspect fraud would increase with general usage, as the masses get involved.

http://bitcoin-otc.com/viewratings.php

Ok, that's starting to ease my concern a little. Thanks for that.
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