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Topic: Bitcoin - Losing faith...heres why... - page 3. (Read 4907 times)

legendary
Activity: 1302
Merit: 1008
Core dev leaves me neg feedback #abuse #political
August 24, 2014, 05:02:23 PM
#32
Hmm, well people will not be spending their bitcoins recklessly. If they do spend it so for e.g. on a house or in another company, they still hold the power, with the underlying value of that power being bitcoin. The only real spending that would occur would be on depreciating assets, which would only account for a small amount of the purchases made. The rest would be hoarded in appreciating assets, so they never lose control of the power they first received with the massive wealth disparity that may come from bitcoin.



You make a good point, however there are counterpoints to this.

1.  Whether wealth is held in stable currency or an appreciating asset,
the wealthy owner isn't consuming resources just by ownership.  However, luxurious  living
requires spending actual wealth and buying depreciating assets.

And with Bitcoin, once the coins are spent, they are gone.  This is in sharp contrast to the
current system where the rich get richer.  So it may start out as more skewed, but over time,
Bitcoin actually favors more equitable wealth distribution, and the trend is in the right direction.
Right now, we are on the wrong track, with power and wealth getting more centralized.
With Bitcoin, it would forever march toward equality.  In the long run, all wealth would be earned.

2.  Also, even appreciating assets require real wealth to be spent on their use as a resource.
A house requires property taxes to be paid.  A classic car requires maintenance, etc.  These
things require further distribution of funds.

3.  Yes people will convert Bitcoins to other assets as you say,  but this will not happen
all at once, in say 40 years.  it will happen in various stages along the way...each time,
further distributing the wealth.  

4. There may be some generational stashes of coin, but they would erode over time
when used for luxury, and would only cause occasional disruption.


legendary
Activity: 3066
Merit: 1188
August 24, 2014, 04:06:16 PM
#31
I cannot see the whole world using bitcoin when its going to create such wealth disparity.

Bitcoin did not and will not "create" wealth disparity as you falsely assert.

People who want bitcoin can buy it - fairly cheaply as it turns out.

Those who do not want it don't have to buy it.

That's all there is to it. It isn't the only asset in existence and stop acting as if it is.

legendary
Activity: 1078
Merit: 1003
August 24, 2014, 03:41:05 PM
#30
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I cannot see the whole world using bitcoin when its going to create such wealth disparity.

There are roughly 13 million coins in circulation, with the maximum amount being 21 million. This means over 50% of all coins in being, are in control of a small minority consisting of maybe 0.01% of the worlds population.

Yes, there is a super-elite rich at the moment, but not at the scale we are talking about if bitcoin were to be adopted.

Is it not more sensible to think that yes, a cryptocurrency will exist, but not bitcoin?

This is known as the black & white fallacy: in reality, many cryptocurrencies will--and already do--co-exist, you have absolutely no reason to use just one of them alone.  In fact, there is a natural disincentive to use bitcoin as it lends too much power to the "early elite" so to speak; people really hate for other people to be wealthy, apparently, so they'll likely use other crypto and treat bitcoin like we treat gold now: savings, just for the fact that it's the most used--thus most trusted--crypto to date.  It's funny to think of bitcoin as a savings money now since it has just wild swings, but by the time this money is worth enough to actually be the issue you think it will be, its swings will have died down considerably.

I recall, but not the name, an existing or perhaps planned system of payment which would allow merchants to accept all (or rather, most) crypto easily without having to do any extra work, and then get the crypto they want out of it, similarly to how bitpay can turn bitcoin into fiat for merchants who don't want to handle bitcoin.  This would make it dead simple to have all the crypto you want, without having to worry about being forced to use bitcoin in the fear that someone else will profit from your participation.  Your fear that there can be a super-rich elite born from this money should be settled; you should, however, remain prudent about the fact that the rich can still use government to get super-rich, as they always have, even if a new currency is being used widespread.

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A coin where you are automatically assigned a certain amount based on your wealth at the moment, in relation to others?

I have no idea what you mean here; instead of the market, would you rather your wealth be assigned by a central power? Huh

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I find it absurd that someone, i.e the Winklevosses could own 1% of the worlds monetary power. Noone, absolutely noone in their right mind, will allow someone to hold this amount insane amount of resources.

Then why do you fear people will continue to use bitcoin?  Simple market knowledge shows you why this doesn't happen: there's a natural disincentive, as I outlined above.  The only way it can happen is through force.

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I understand, the concept and even bitcoin itself is revolutionary, it has woken us up to what could be, but the origination and adoption of bitcoin was messy and only open to people who (rightly so) had knowledge and guts. But just because someone has guys it doesn't mean they are deserving of something.


Right; they're deserving of something because they own said something.  They own it because of their "guts".  They are not entitled to their something because of their guts, they are entitled because it is their property.

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99.99% of the worlds population controlling 50% of the worlds monetary value and therefore resources, when early adoptors, i.e the 0.01% own the other 50%. 1 person in the 'bitcoin elite' would have the same monetary power as 10,000 people. That's disgusting and human morality itself will not allow for this to happen.

Worried about a hypothetical that can't happen?  You're lying somewhere in this quote.

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Don't get me wrong cryptocurrency is the future, just not one causing a dictatorship to be born.

Dictatorships are not caused by money, they're caused by submission to wartime planners.  As outlined above, there is a natural disincentive to stop using a currency if there's fears of helping a small elite become too wealthy.

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And for the short term I see no reason to invest either....

So invest for the long-term.

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Swiping cards is just about the simplest thing you can do, most transactions under $50 don't require a signature, and security codes and card expiry are incredibly small concerns.

Bitcoin's headaches are immense, slow txn processing, irreversible for the consumer, funds are lost if wallet is compromises...now follow me for a sec...

Your card can get stolen easily from your wallet, or by forgetting it somewhere: most transactions under $50 don't require a signature, and security codes and card expiry are incredibly small concerns...for the thief as well.  With bitcoin, you can protect your wallet with a password, and prevent all transactions without this password.  Oh god, the headache of remembering a password Sad  I can see why you're in love with the idea of a card: considering you're the type to base your ethical theory on how equal or unequal people's wealth are, you never plan on owning a business in your life, so it's easy to miss how bitcoin evens the playing field between the two.  Cards are a great expense to business at very little or no cost to the consumer; it would be weird for you to not prefer it that way, even if it's a power disparity (hey you're against those, right?  Or is it just when you're on the wrong end? Tongue)

Bitcoin transactions are instant, by the way; the confirmations just ensure that the transfer is legit.  I assume you've never once spent bitcoin at an establishment or even an online retailer or you'd know that they take no more time than a debit card transaction, as far as the consumer is concerned.  Furthermore, bitcoin transactions are reversible for the consumer: if the consumer gets dicked over on an order, the merchant can easily send the money back out of his own will.  The problem you have is that the merchant can't be forced at any given time within 30 days, which is a pretty awful way to do business (a lot of money is lost through these types of frauds.)  And yes, you can have your bitcoin stolen as with any medium; it's just how it goes with property.  It is, however, a disparity between the two to mention it for one, but not the other.  For bitcoin, this is mitigated simply by not keeping too much BTC on your "spending" wallet; everyone is familiar with the concept of checking and savings, things in savings can't be spent easily; likewise, bitcoin has cold wallets and wallets, the former of which is hard to spend.  I'm certain this will be streamlined as time goes on (coinbase now has something called a "vault" where money goes in, but doesn't easily come out.)

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Merchants can't replace credit with bitcoin. Simply can't. Credit is money you don't have and bitcoin is money you do have. A good credit card offers rewards, 100% fraud protection, ubiquitous acceptance, FICO score benefits, and an entity between you and your money. Tons of consumer value.

It's probably better that we not use credit; that has led to many wealth disparities, which you seem to be against.

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Now debit - debit fees were sliced by the Durbin amendment, so suddenly they aren't all that much more than the 1% exchange price of bitcoin.

While debit and bitcoin are comparable in that they are money you have, there is still no compelling reason for your average consumer to pay a fee to obtain bitcoin just to make an everyday purchase.

There is if your average consumer is being paid in crypto, Mr. "What if bitcoin takes over the world?!"  You can't look that far into the future, then ignore it completely; this is a very poor argument on your behalf.  Yes, it's true that all crypto has little incentive to the average Joe, since the average Joe only really cares about the path of least resistance of which bitcoin is not it.  However, there are many previously outlined benefits to using bitcoin--if lack of a central authority is not enough, then there's probably not a lot someone can do to convince you otherwise.  The central authority has far more wealth than you do, btw; is this a "necessary wealth disparity"?  Or do you believe you're special in that very few people care about wealth disparities?

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Merchants can want to eliminate transaction fees all they want but until there is clear value for the most important point in the value chain, the consumer, mass adoption will not occur. Even worse, to fix bitcoin's shortcomings, you need to regulate it, guarantee it, set up escrow's, exchange btc for USD...all the things that will make it just like the mainstream banks bitcoin is seeking to circumvent.

Bitcoin doesn't seek to circumvent those things, it is not a conscious being.  Satoshi's purpose for Bitcoin was to operate without a central authority, which has clear benefits that you haven't acknowledged or are simply unaware of.  Most important of all, because bitcoin is not centrally regulated (though it is regulated by the protocol, mind you,) it cannot be inflated, therefore it cannot be used for the purposes of empire, thus wars must be paid for in the here and now, rather than by selling off the future, ergo the world is, by and large, a much more peaceful place to live as wars are too expensive to wage.

I'm not saying people should use a product they're uncomfortable with for the strict purpose of future benefit (because deferral of gratification would be a sign of intelligence ergo an unreasonable standard for most people), but I am saying it's a cause worthy enough to advocate.  Many people can't be convinced logically of the usefulness of an item, they remain skeptical no matter what; many do it because other people are doing it and they don't want to be left out.  That's fine, but in order for that to occur, you need people and businesses to use an "inferior" product so it can get enough infrastructure to function as a direct and improved replacement to the monetary system of today, including all the benefits of cards and such, and all of which are possible without a central governing authority.  Doesn't have to be bitcoin specifically; all cryptos are very similar, and I suspect many will be in use in the future, not just one as you've concluded.  I don't care how similar bitcoin becomes to mainstream banks (nor was this ever its specified purpose to be averse to banks), so long as there's no benefit to tampering with it (everyone jumps ship to another crypto the moment the update to increase the bitcoin supply is released), then we have a product that has the potential to change the world for the better.

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Even if these are fixed, its too late, people will realise the wealth disparity caused.

I hope by now I've explained exactly why this quote is irrelevant; there's nothing to fix (aside from popular opinion) and no cause to worry about a major wealth disparity.  Bitcoin does not operate like fiat, although I'm sure government might try to force usage of one or the other.  So long as nobody has to use bitcoin, you never have to worry about a wealthy bitcoin elite; there will be plenty of wealthy bitcoiners, no doubt, but none that'll rule the world without the help of a third party.

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A new world cryptocurrency will be replace it, where the wealth disparity stays the same, where it is today... but with all the benefits that crypto has to offer so the world doesnt collapse?

I will refer you to your initial black & white fallacy at the top of the post: all cryptocurrencies are wordly and many new ones are being developed all the time.  You're trying to superimpose fiat onto bitcoin, and it doesn't work.  There will never be a one world crypto, because there will never be two people exactly alike, let alone billions!

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Comments?

Thank you for removing yourself from the liberal echo-chamber for a moment; I invite you to study some Austrian economics here, to help balance your views: https://mises.org/Literature
sr. member
Activity: 265
Merit: 250
Honni Soit Qui Mal i Pense
August 24, 2014, 03:09:55 PM
#29
I'm a bit depressed by this long period of stagnation but I know that sooner or later the price will recover and hit new highs.
While you and lots like you keep hitting F5 wishing BTC reaches $1000 as a commodity, that will not happen.
BTC needs to grow, adapt and evolve, interact and be used, spent and diversified.
As i've said before, The biggest owners of BTCs are the ones that are killing it, trying to hold their balance and make "the others" spend it first.
In Spain we have a saying:
"Entre todos la mataron y ella sola se murió".
legendary
Activity: 1279
Merit: 1018
August 24, 2014, 03:08:35 PM
#28
He has a point though about bitcoin not being "the one". This current POW scheme is doomed to failure as the data centers are getting bigger and bigger with less people mining by the day. I believe a better system will take over and it will happen very quickly when the this system gains traction. What do you think is going to happen bitcoin if a new crypto currency rises to $500 million  marketcap in its first few months. The whales will start to migrate to the new coin, slowly at first but rapidly later.
member
Activity: 75
Merit: 10
Fearless, except for those who are fearless
August 24, 2014, 02:11:07 PM
#27
Bitcoin whales will spend their coins when the time is ready.
They will not wait until their death.
At one moment they will redistribute them to others who provides goods and services.
They will also be rewarded for the fact that they were first movers and pioneers who made this all possible.

Don't be jealous, just take part in the eco system or leave. Nobody forces you to stay.
I on the other hand feel a desperate need to be in this community because it feels good to be in it.
All get rich quick people will learn their lessons and loose if they are in bitcoin only for the FIAT.
Because remember one thing.
The moment they "cash out" into FIAT when price is 1,000,000 nobody wants those FIAT notes because the world will run on bitcoin at that moment.
I already know one person who made "profits" and sold all his bitcoins (lol, moron)
He will learn his lesson in a few years
sr. member
Activity: 476
Merit: 250
August 24, 2014, 02:07:55 PM
#26
Btc will be distributed evenly in the end.


Sure. And "Jesus Christ will come back in The End".

legendary
Activity: 1078
Merit: 1002
Bitcoin is new, makes sense to hodl.
August 24, 2014, 01:58:42 PM
#25
I predict satoshi come back some days and distribute his wealth to the poor to balance it out. Some old early adopters could do the same before they die. Hackers steal from early adopters and maybe Kapeles, then spend the easy money on their needs. Btc will be distributed evenly in the end.
newbie
Activity: 24
Merit: 0
August 24, 2014, 01:42:12 PM
#24
I cannot see the whole world using bitcoin when its going to create such wealth disparity.

There are roughly 13 million coins in circulation, with the maximum amount being 21 million. This means over 50% of all coins in being, are in control of a small minority consisting of maybe 0.01% of the worlds population.

Nobody will care- If bitcoin is useful enough and easy enough.

Will they though? Yes, it may be useful and easy, especially with the introduction of smart contracts//derivative coins etc...and will therefore cut inefficiency of how the human race in general manages itself, but people will inevitably care if the value of everything they have worked for, suddenly runs into the hands of the few elite.

You can argue that there is a rich elite at the moment which is absolutely fucking the world right now, but the amount of potential disparity that bitcoin may create will be absolutely catastrophic, causing the human planet to turn all dystopian. I know this sounds like something out of a book, but this could happen, especially if no single authority has control over this object.

People will care if their $10 turns into the equivalent of $0.01 cents in bitcoin, which is the case if bitcoin is to flourish. But this is just my opinion, and maybe it will change with a bit more understanding...
legendary
Activity: 2590
Merit: 1022
Leading Crypto Sports Betting & Casino Platform
August 24, 2014, 01:18:44 PM
#23
Bitcoin isn't a get-rich-quick scheme, if you have lost your faith, the best thing you can do is howl your coins and forget about them for some years.

i think it's both to be honest, it can be a quick rich scheme but it's also a long term investment
legendary
Activity: 1449
Merit: 1001
August 24, 2014, 01:08:55 PM
#22
I cannot see the whole world using bitcoin when its going to create such wealth disparity.

There are roughly 13 million coins in circulation, with the maximum amount being 21 million. This means over 50% of all coins in being, are in control of a small minority consisting of maybe 0.01% of the worlds population.

Nobody will care- If bitcoin is useful enough and easy enough.
sr. member
Activity: 476
Merit: 250
August 24, 2014, 12:54:49 PM
#21

ahhh. another newbie posting in bitcoin discussion when you should be reading about what bitcoin is. please just go back the beginngers section and read more before you come up with your brilliant plant about bitcoin. there are people who have been here from the beginning and know way more than you. bitcoin doesnt need shortcomings fixed, it CANNOT BE EVERYTHING AT THE SAME TIME. it is bitcoin and it will stay what it is.


Uhm, OP actually produced solid arguments. You, on the other hand, provide nothing but childish, badly written ad hominem attacks. Why don't you try refuting his arguments instead? Is it because you're unable?
hero member
Activity: 886
Merit: 1013
August 24, 2014, 12:47:51 PM
#20
Bitcoin isn't a get-rich-quick scheme, if you have lost your faith, the best thing you can do is howl your coins and forget about them for some years.

Or sell them to me. I would happily take them. Smiley
hero member
Activity: 588
Merit: 500
August 24, 2014, 12:40:39 PM
#19
There are roughly 13 million coins in circulation, with the maximum amount being 21 million. This means over 50% of all coins in being, are in control of a small minority consisting of maybe 0.01% of the worlds population.


the bitcoin is divisible, this shouldn't be a problem, you don't need to own a whole bitcoin in future, when the price will skyrocket
His point is money=power and in this case too much power in the hands of too few people
(not that it is any different now)
Well he may be right to say that money does equal power. However money does not equal control over bitcoin. What he is saying is an issue with overall society. The fact that Bitcoin is PoW and not PoS (piece of stake aka piece of shit) means that regardless of how many BTC one person has they will not be able to affect others who have bitcoin (except the price if/when they decide to sell).  
member
Activity: 84
Merit: 10
Theymos, unban my account.
August 24, 2014, 11:29:29 AM
#18
Bitcoin is the One World Currency, so it makes perfect sense that Satoshi/Illuminati would create it in such a way that it would eliminate the middle-class. They only want the poor (slaves) and the rich classes. If enough people with good hearts amass Bitcoin, it could be the Achilles heal in their plans. The people with large sums of cash could do something to help the poor, while "they" try to ruin people's lives. There will eventually only be 500,000 people in this world once they put the Georgia Stonehenge stuff into action. Just work to amass as much Bitcoin as you can and you'll also be in a place to help fix this mess.
newbie
Activity: 42
Merit: 0
August 24, 2014, 11:26:43 AM
#17
Bitcoin isn't a get-rich-quick scheme, if you have lost your faith, the best thing you can do is howl your coins and forget about them for some years.
legendary
Activity: 1512
Merit: 1012
August 24, 2014, 11:22:31 AM
#16
OP hold BTC from the vacancy ... but, now, it don't have FIAT money for the september and not make profit in BTC.
OP leave
Well, OP ... bye !
hero member
Activity: 924
Merit: 1000
August 24, 2014, 11:19:12 AM
#15
Most people that are here joined after the first bitcoin boon. Those of us that have been here since the beginning of GPU mining have more patience. First BTC was trading for 70 cents of something, it slowly went up, then SR was announced, then it jumped to 4 bucks overnight, then within a few weeks it hit in the 30s then it slowly went down to 2 dollars in the winter, then it stayed around the 4 dollar range for months, then it slowly went up to 8 then 6 to 9 months later asics were starting to be released to btc got its engines going.. then cyprus hit and we went to 266 or so.. then we pull back to the low hundreds for months. then boom, to the moon probably because of the chinese..

What Im saying is that bitcoin was stagnate or worse for a couple years, when bitcoin doesn't do amazing things for a few months everyone freaks out...

Wait til the infrastructure gets solidified and the EFT's start.. Who cares that the twins own 1 percent of coin, they plan on selling it to investors. Im trying to spread the word on bitcoin, trying to get businesses to take it.. Got my doctor to take it and 2 7-11's.. If everyone did that, where do you think bitcoin would be?

This is not a get rich scheme.. If all goes well, we should see new all time highs within a couple years...

newbie
Activity: 24
Merit: 0
August 24, 2014, 11:09:52 AM
#14
Lol? Do not tell me to leave this community for questioning bitcoin. Questioning how the world works is how the world has progressed so rapidly.

You are getting your ego involved. Lets just keep this down to pure intellect and opinion instead of insults, as it will not get us anywhere.

And I'm sure I'm not the only one with these questions. Just because I'm a newbie it doesn't make my remarks invalid. Instead of throwing insults, why do you not instead throw a constructive answer/opinion? You need to practice a bit more compassion, as they say, all you need is love! Now come here and let me give you a big fat kiss on the lips iluvpie60!

member
Activity: 68
Merit: 10
August 24, 2014, 10:58:05 AM
#13
I'm a bit depressed by this long period of stagnation but I know that sooner or later the price will recover and hit new highs.
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