Bitcoin mixing is NOT money laundering, per se - page 17.

Yogee

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Quote from: BlackHatCoiner on March 28, 2023, 08:25:43 AM

Definition of money laundering:

Quote from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Money_laundering

Money laundering is the process of illegally concealing the origin of money,[....]

Let's say the source of your funds are clean but do mixers make the process of concealing the funds' origin legal? I think this remains a grey area up to now. I haven't read any updates on the cases filed against owners of previously seized mixers prior to Chipmixer.

Quote from: dragonvslinux on March 28, 2023, 09:04:44 AM

Quote from: BlackHatCoiner on March 28, 2023, 08:46:52 AM

Quote from: _act_ on March 28, 2023, 08:42:02 AM

Mixers are not illegal, even when United States have strict rules that mixers can not abide to

Unfortunately, for centralized mixers at least, you're wrong. In the US, you're prohibited to run a non-regulated money transmitting service; and that's pretty much what a good Bitcoin mixer is. Anonymous and it involves and intermediary who will transmit money. However, that does not apply on every country, and it does not mean decentralized mixing is illegal.

This is certainly the bottom line. The US (as well as EU) will also define money laundering to be whatever they want it to be, even with the rest of world not quite in agreement. Generally, any unlicensed money transmitting service will be considered money laundering if there is no KYC in place, even if not really any different than going to a shop with "dirty cash" and getting change that's "clean" from a vendor.

There's that phrase that laws needs to be changed according to the changes in society. That's most likely what's happening with the changing definition and scope of existing laws.

un_rank

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- Jay -

There are lots of privacy options in bitcoin, such as the use of change address and having multiple addresses linked to one private key. Mixers function to make it difficult or impossible to trace the source of funds, this is way off from what money laundering actually is.
The idea that mixers can conceal the trail of stolen funds exists, but that does not make up the bulk of transactions through them.

When you consider that money laundering is actually done through legitimate businesses, should there also be a campaign to close them down as by the logic of mixers encouraging scams, they are doing so as well.

- Jay -

Nwada001

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Quote from: _act_ on March 28, 2023, 09:00:56 AM

We can just take it that mixers are not illegal. But if they see it having illegal mixing, there is possibility that it would be taken down.

All countries even those who are crypto friendly are most likely to be against Mixing , those countries who are crypto friendly are largely partners with centralized platforms that's to say they want to know how their citizens make use of crypto currency no privacy protection at all.

So using Mixing service will not allow them achieve their goal and as such they will definitely be against the service which they can't render a direct attack to any mixing platform since they are not registered or licensed by any regulatory authority, all they just want it a reason to attack mixing platform and that reason is to link it to money laundering and if they can validate any proof that a crime was committed using the platform then they have all they need to attack.

Which is why most people are seeing mixing as money laundering platform because of the Fud the Fed's and others Bitcoin haters are spreading regarding Bitcoin.

A real Bitcoiner will definitely know that mixing primary goal is to protect holders privacy, and has nothing to do with money laundering.

dragonvslinux

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Quote from: BlackHatCoiner on March 28, 2023, 08:46:52 AM

Quote from: _act_ on March 28, 2023, 08:42:02 AM

Mixers are not illegal, even when United States have strict rules that mixers can not abide to

Unfortunately, for centralized mixers at least, you're wrong. In the US, you're prohibited to run a non-regulated money transmitting service; and that's pretty much what a good Bitcoin mixer is. Anonymous and it involves and intermediary who will transmit money. However, that does not apply on every country, and it does not mean decentralized mixing is illegal.

This is certainly the bottom line. The US (as well as EU) will also define money laundering to be whatever they want it to be, even with the rest of world not quite in agreement. Generally, any unlicensed money transmitting service will be considered money laundering if there is no KYC in place, even if not really any different than going to a shop with "dirty cash" and getting change that's "clean" from a vendor.

_act_

legendary

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Lightning network is good with small amount of BTC

Quote from: BlackHatCoiner on March 28, 2023, 08:46:52 AM

Unfortunately, for centralized mixers at least, you're wrong. In the US, you're prohibited to run a non-regulated money transmitting service; and that's pretty much what a good Bitcoin mixer is. Anonymous and it involves and intermediary who will transmit money. However, that does not apply on every country, and it does not mean decentralized mixing is illegal.

If centralized mixers should follow the Bank Secrecy Act and register as a money transmitter, they have to follow anti-money laundering and know-your-customer compliance. But is that possible? If they follow it, that means they are no more mixers but another thing else.

But I am wondering why mixers are allowed on sites like bitcointalk and no regulatory ban.

Just like I said, gambling is not legalized in all countries in the world. Cryptocurrencies are not legalized in a countries of the world, there are over 10 countries in the world that completely ban cryptocurrencies. Because something is not legal in one country, that does not mean it is illegal in another country.

We can just take it that mixers are not illegal. But if they see it having illegal mixing, there is possibility that it would be taken down.

BlackHatCoiner

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Farewell, Leo

Quote from: _act_ on March 28, 2023, 08:42:02 AM

why Wikipedia is referring gambling as an illegal activity?

I'm pretty sure it means unlicensed gambling.

Quote from: _act_ on March 28, 2023, 08:42:02 AM

Mixers are not illegal, even when United States have strict rules that mixers can not abide to

Unfortunately, for centralized mixers at least, you're wrong. In the US, you're prohibited to run a non-regulated money transmitting service; and that's pretty much what a good Bitcoin mixer is. Anonymous and it involves and intermediary who will transmit money. However, that does not apply on every country, and it does not mean decentralized mixing is illegal.

Agbe

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Anyone thinking of bitcoin mixing with money laundering is not real citizen of a country. Money laundry is a term used by the economic/financial department of the government. Thank you for making some clarification between the two so that those who are not clear for the two different concepts will understand it well. What Happened to Chipmixer is that the company's owner was involved in money laundering and that was why the company was seized and not the company was involved the money laundering. Money laundry can never be a service but it is an act which carry out by individuals while mixing is a serve render to serve humanity. Therefore, nobody should misconceptualize what happened in Chipmixer to another bitcoin mixing companies.

_act_

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Lightning network is good with small amount of BTC

Quote from: BlackHatCoiner on March 28, 2023, 08:25:43 AM

Unless you think that every potentially identifiable coin is illegal (which would be false), Bitcoin mixing does not equate with Bitcoin laundering. While it is possible to launder, hereby conceal the origins of money from an illegal activity, it is not a money laundering service, in the same manner that while it is possible to terrorize with the assistance of end-to-end encryption and peer-to-peer protocols, such a messenger is not a terrorism service.

Mixers are not illegal, even when United States have strict rules that mixers can not abide to, United States has never said that they want to ban all mixers, they do not even have the capability to ban mixers outside United States. I have not read anything like that also from other countries.

This is what they are doing, they look for any illegal mixing and expose the mixer, but no country is going against mixers in any country without valid evidence of illegal mixing.

southerngentuk

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Sugars.zone | DatingFi - Earn for Posting

Bitcoin mixing (Bitcoin mixing or Bitcoin tumbling) is a technique used to hide the identity of Bitcoin users. When using Bitcoin, transactions are publicly stored on the blockchain and can be tracked by anyone. The use of Bitcoin mixing helps to mask users' Bitcoin addresses and makes it harder to track transactions. However, the use of Bitcoin mixing can also be used to launder money and the funds are used to fund illegal activities. Therefore, the use of Bitcoin mixing completely depends on the intended use of the user. If used correctly, Bitcoin mixing is not money laundering.

And unfortunately our behavior is at the root of the problem, I find that people love to blame products when it is the user who is responsible for that behavior. What I find funny is that the law enforcement agencies keep pretending that they only see the wrongdoing of these products and blame it.

BlackHatCoiner

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Farewell, Leo

Some clarification is needed to this board due to the recent incident with ChipMixer.

To all advocates of anti-anonymous Bitcoin and Internet tools: Bitcoin mixing is NOT money laundering, per se.

Definition of money laundering:

Quote from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Money_laundering

Money laundering is the process of illegally concealing the origin of money, obtained from illicit activities such as drug trafficking, corruption, embezzlement or gambling, by converting it into a legitimate source. It is a crime in many jurisdictions with varying definitions. It is usually a key operation of organized crime.

Definition of Bitcoin mixing:

Quote from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryptocurrency_tumbler

A cryptocurrency tumbler or cryptocurrency mixing service[1] is a service that mixes potentially identifiable or "tainted" cryptocurrency funds with others, so as to obscure the trail back to the fund's original source.

Unless you think that every potentially identifiable coin is obtained illegally (which would be false), Bitcoin mixing does not equate with Bitcoin laundering. While it is possible to launder, hereby conceal the origins of money from an illegal activity, it is not a money laundering service, in the same manner that while it is possible to terrorize with the assistance of end-to-end encryption and peer-to-peer protocols, such a messenger is not a terrorism service.

When you mix coins, not only do you just not want from the rest to know your business; you want them to know you want to conceal it. It can be a completely conscious decision from any person; criminal or not. If you don't respect this dignify-respecting technique which strengthens individuals' privacy, say it, but say it right; "I don't want that much privacy". Prepare to receive an infinite amount of deprecation from privacy advocates afterwards, but clear it up.

P.S.: You can't have privacy without money laundering due to the nature of humans-- by the way, the opposite does not necessarily hold true.

Topic: Bitcoin mixing is NOT money laundering, per se - page 17. (Read 3950 times)