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Topic: "Bitcoin only has speculative value". Are you sure? (Read 3644 times)

full member
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A big difference between BitPay and PayPal or Visa is BitPay isn't required to provide a chargeback service. It's my understanding this is a legal requirement for the companies that do provide it, and I find it hard to believe BitPay won't be faced with the same requirement as soon as legislators catch up. What will happen to pricing then?

Bitpay can provide the service by holding merchant's money in escrow. Problem arise when merchants do not want to take bitcoin directional risk when customer demand refund in btc.

sr. member
Activity: 322
Merit: 250
very nice but you forgot one thing... what are the rates the customer gets?
a merchant needs to have that priced in as well

You mean, the cost of acquiring bitcoins for the customer? Or "handing through" the cheaper costs to the customer in the form of a rebate?

The former is a good question, but doesn't really matter to the business owner: if his/her operating costs are lower, he/she's happy.
Sure, it doesnt matter to the business owner (as long as the fixed fees for the service per month are zero), but as if there is no incentive for customers to pay via BTC it doesnt really matter.

Which brings us to the latter: if people are reluctant to make use of the new, more efficient payment system, businesses have a simple option - pass through some of the reduced costs to the customer in the form of rebates. As long as the rebate is lower than the saved costs, it's still profitable for them to do so, and if the rebate is high enough, it will attract additional customers that look for the lowest price of an item.
The problem is that BTC is *NOT* more efficient for a customer on a monetary basis. Typical ATM fees are 3-7%, more than even PayPal takes. What else, wire the money to an exchange first? There you got conversion fees as well, not to mention fees to get BTC out of the exchange. So, even if you dont include the risks involved in having to pass through an exchange BTC is currently pretty much the worst payment choice for consumers.
Sure, its nice once you already have BTC, but actually getting the BTC is still far to cumbersome for Joe Sixpack.
hero member
Activity: 552
Merit: 501
A big difference between BitPay and PayPal or Visa is BitPay isn't required to provide a chargeback service. It's my understanding this is a legal requirement for the companies that do provide it, and I find it hard to believe BitPay won't be faced with the same requirement as soon as legislators catch up. What will happen to pricing then?

If this were to happen it would destroy their business model. However, the analogy between Visa/PayPal and BitPay is flawed. BitPay do not interact with the customer.  Their arrangement is purely with the merchant. So what BitPay are doing is fundamentally different to Paypal who are acting as a transfer mechanism for value from the customer to the merchant:

Customer     Visa           Merchant
Customer     Merchant    Bitpay


Merchants are of course under separate legal obligations to make refunds in certain circumstances. But the situation there is no different to cash.

full member
Activity: 252
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UNCLOAK™ - Cyber Threat Detection Powered by EOS™
Capital Gains Tax to the IRS in the USA.
Exchange fees and trading spread.


thread over.

Breaking news...Last night someone sneaked into the Library of Congress and chiseled all 73,954 pages of the United States tax code into stone tablets. More at eleven.
legendary
Activity: 1666
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Capital Gains Tax to the IRS in the USA.
Exchange fees and trading spread.


thread over.
legendary
Activity: 1638
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I have built a few sites for clients in the past that use bitpay and the price gap was an issue because of high priced items they sold (mainly metals and jewels) margins were tight in the market and the offset disrupted the prices quite a bit

I see. Something to watch out for then, I guess.

Wonder if there's a site that tracks historic Bitpay rates vs. market rates.

Yes, this has been my experience as well.  I used bitcoins a few times to buy some food (back in november-december I believe), and at times the rates were kinda ok, but sometimes there was a BIG premium (IIRC in the area of 5-10%) to be paid for the conversion (to euros).

That being said, I like the functionality that Bitpay provides, and if the rates for the customer are competitive, I might use it more often. 
I suspect this will happen over time.
sr. member
Activity: 280
Merit: 250
Coinbase had free bitcoin to fiat business transactions up to first million dollars.  Then a flat 1% after that. Thats what I set up the bowling here in town at. not sure if they still have that deal.
sr. member
Activity: 252
Merit: 250
Never really looked at the details behind Bitpay's fees, but this is pretty spot on analysis by the OP. Fundamentals are looking bullish as hell, that's for sure. Cool
legendary
Activity: 1246
Merit: 1000
I know a few places that actually give discounts for buying with Bitcoins in my country. One is a webshop that sells computers: if you pay in BTC there they don't charge you any shipping costs. The other one is a food delivery service that normally charges you transaction costs if you pay with a credit card or directly through your bank, but if you pay in BTC you don't have to pay for that. Those are rather small incentives I know, but you have to start somewhere. Smiley

thuisbezorgd, huh? Tongue

Yup, always feels like free dinner to me when I order something there. Cheesy
legendary
Activity: 1470
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I know a few places that actually give discounts for buying with Bitcoins in my country. One is a webshop that sells computers: if you pay in BTC there they don't charge you any shipping costs. The other one is a food delivery service that normally charges you transaction costs if you pay with a credit card or directly through your bank, but if you pay in BTC you don't have to pay for that. Those are rather small incentives I know, but you have to start somewhere. :)

thuisbezorgd, huh? :P
legendary
Activity: 1246
Merit: 1000
I know a few places that actually give discounts for buying with Bitcoins in my country. One is a webshop that sells computers: if you pay in BTC there they don't charge you any shipping costs. The other one is a food delivery service that normally charges you transaction costs if you pay with a credit card or directly through your bank, but if you pay in BTC you don't have to pay for that. Those are rather small incentives I know, but you have to start somewhere. Smiley
legendary
Activity: 1470
Merit: 1007
I think the main problem is there is not really much incentive now for consumers to buy with bitcoins. Ppl buy things at overstock or at TigerDirect either to support them or to cash out avoiding international wires from exchanges, etc.

At the moment, I have not heard about discount for buying with bitcoins. Since I live in US, I have no incentive whatsoever to buy from Overstock or TigerDirect using bitcoins.  It will only cost me extra to buy btc, not mention the hassle.

I wonder why buying digital content (movies, music) with btc is not more popular - that would make more sense. So far buying things online with btc is not competitive, because it is mostly implemented by business selling mostly domestically anyway, and for this domestic currency is more convenient and cheaper. So unless we will see "10% discounts for buying with btc" ads, I think most this buying with btc is done for promotional purposes or (under the radar) cashing out.

Agreed. So far there isn't enough incentive for customers to switch to Bitcoin based payments. But the first step is getting the merchants on board, through cheaper rates. It's up to them then to give an incentive to customers to actually use it.

By the way, I don't think it's coincidence that the new, even cheaper than before, Bitpay fee structure is introduced relatively briefly after a $30 million funding round. Part of me suspects, the fees are actually slightly below their own break-even point, but they use the extra buffer they got through the latest funding to aggressively win new businesses through their flat fees.

Nothing wrong with that, if that's what happened. Could however mean that they will eventually raise prices.
full member
Activity: 336
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I think the main problem is there is not really much incentive now for consumers to buy with bitcoins. Ppl buy things at overstock or at TigerDirect either to support them or to cash out avoiding international wires from exchanges, etc.

At the moment, I have not heard about discount for buying with bitcoins. Since I live in US, I have no incentive whatsoever to buy from Overstock or TigerDirect using bitcoins.  It will only cost me extra to buy btc, not mention the hassle.

I wonder why buying digital content (movies, music) with btc is not more popular - that would make more sense. So far buying things online with btc is not competitive, because it is mostly implemented by business selling mostly domestically anyway, and for this domestic currency is more convenient and cheaper. So unless we will see "10% discounts for buying with btc" ads, I think most this buying with btc is done for promotional purposes or (under the radar) cashing out.
hero member
Activity: 686
Merit: 500
Agreed with the main message, Bitpay is actually the strongest fundamental I know of. But as others said it needs to scale and it isn't proven yet. Bitpay may also have some hidden costs or risks (some sorts of fraud or attacks that are only possible with Bitcoin) that they have just been lucky to avoid so far.

I agree with the sentiment expressed in the OP -- Bitpay exhibits BTC's quite strong fundamentals. But it's also true -- what will things look like when the bitcoin economy scales up, big time?
sr. member
Activity: 470
Merit: 250
Visa -- Cheaper, but fees are one intransparent mess

There's no easy way, it seems, to find Visa's pricing model for you as a merchant from their website. There's this FAQ-style subsection...
Merchant (credit card) pricing is so confusing, it is pretty much impossible for an average person to understand. There are so many different types of fees that apply in different cases. For example, I used to work in banking (retail branch) and we would never actually show anyone inquiring about merchant services the fee schedule. If we did, they wouldn't understand and it would be misleading. We would tell them "Our pricing is very competitive and if you bring us a copy of your merchant statement, we can do a comparison for you." Of course if they actually were going to sign up we would have to show them, but by then it would be largely irrelevant.
legendary
Activity: 1470
Merit: 1007
I slapped on an 'addendum #2', with an argument in favor of a minimum price target of $2000 in the near future, motivated by the conclusions from my post about payment processors.

Feedback very welcome.
legendary
Activity: 1512
Merit: 1005
If you want to understand, you have to use the words best representing what is.

Use value: Most things and services has use value.

Exchange value: Added value as a result of folks using a stuff in indirect exchange.

Speculative value is a condescending word for exchange value.

Bitcoin has only exchange value. Same as fiat money.
10c
full member
Activity: 658
Merit: 100
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I find the speculative value of this post too high compared to its real value, you may be in for a harsh reality check soon. Tongue You have no idea what the real value of a bitcoin is and neither do I, we only know the current market value and the future will show whether that is too high or too low.

How can you say that??? Huh Huh

All the bulls know the real value is way higher than where we are now,
just like all the bears know the real value is much, much lower then where we are now.
legendary
Activity: 2478
Merit: 1362
legendary
Activity: 961
Merit: 1000
very nice but you forgot one thing... what are the rates the customer gets?
a merchant needs to have that priced in as well

You mean, the cost of acquiring bitcoins for the customer? Or "handing through" the cheaper costs to the customer in the form of a rebate?


The former is a good question, but doesn't really matter to the business owner: if his/her operating costs are lower, he/she's happy.

Which brings us to the latter: if people are reluctant to make use of the new, more efficient payment system, businesses have a simple option - pass through some of the reduced costs to the customer in the form of rebates. As long as the rebate is lower than the saved costs, it's still profitable for them to do so, and if the rebate is high enough, it will attract additional customers that look for the lowest price of an item.

I believe reggie Middleton wrote up a comparison similar to this as a look at the coming Margin Compression theme he says will hit the payments industry.

I don't always grasp it, but I believe it is something that is dangerous to the viability of some of the players
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