"Bitcoin only has speculative value". Are you sure? - page 2.

Miz4r

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Quote from: Tzupy on June 05, 2014, 06:45:56 AM

During 2012 bitcoin's speculative value was reasonably close to it's real value, which is driven by demand from
activities that circumvent laws and regulations (SR and like). The current speculative value is much higher than
the real value, and it has been driven mostly by MtGox fiat withdrawal issue and bots and then by crazy Chinese speculators.
As long as the Chinese speculators are able to keep the price high, the current status will continue, with fluctuations and pumps.
But if they start to panic sell, then bitcoin price will endure a harsh reality check.

I find the speculative value of this post too high compared to its real value, you may be in for a harsh reality check soon. Tongue

You have no idea what the real value of a bitcoin is and neither do I, we only know the current market value and the future will show whether that is too high or too low.

Ibian

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Quote from: calmindifference on June 05, 2014, 06:05:25 AM

Quote from: Ibian on June 05, 2014, 05:57:59 AM

Quote from: calmindifference on June 05, 2014, 05:47:23 AM

For fair comparison it's worth factoring in the bitcoin network running costs:

No, it isn't. The network is being run on a volunteer basis, and the people doing so are profiting from it.

You could apply that same argument about paypal.

No. Paypal makes money through their fees. Miners and bitpay are economically unrelated.

Tzupy

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During 2012 bitcoin's speculative value was reasonably close to it's real value, which is driven by demand from
activities that circumvent laws and regulations (SR and like). The current speculative value is much higher than
the real value, and it has been driven mostly by MtGox fiat withdrawal issue and bots and then by crazy Chinese speculators.
As long as the Chinese speculators are able to keep the price high, the current status will continue, with fluctuations and pumps.
But if they start to panic sell, then bitcoin price will endure a harsh reality check.

10c

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Quote from: sgbett on June 05, 2014, 06:19:37 AM

Quote from: rebuilder on June 05, 2014, 06:11:20 AM

A big difference between BitPay and PayPal or Visa is BitPay isn't required to provide a chargeback service. It's my understanding this is a legal requirement for the companies that do provide it, and I find it hard to believe BitPay won't be faced with the same requirement as soon as legislators catch up. What will happen to pricing then?

What is interesting about that, is that in terms of avoiding chargebacks it makes using bit pay less attractive than just using bitcoin itself.

I'm not saying send BTC blind (course you can if you want) but in a hazy-trust situation use the mechanism(s) present in the BTC protocol (e.g. multi signed transactions/escrow etc). I don't know where we are in terms of easy to use public implementations of such things, but I understand those things are possible?

One step further away from fiat...

Very true but for now bitpay like services are the only affordable way to accept bitcoin if you have a business. the IRS doesn't have a wallet yet (I inquired several times).

bitpay will die when we actually enter the mass adoption stage and there is no need to convert to fiat, simply because suppliers will accept it to

10c

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That depends on where you are located in the world.
Over here you are not obligated to issue charge backs. Your customers have a 14 no questions asked return right.
so they have to return you the item first before you compensate them. and since bitcoin is not considered money you just pay them the euro amount. so if btc doubled they just lost half their funds Shocked

Quote from: rebuilder on June 05, 2014, 06:11:20 AM

A big difference between BitPay and PayPal or Visa is BitPay isn't required to provide a chargeback service. It's my understanding this is a legal requirement for the companies that do provide it, and I find it hard to believe BitPay won't be faced with the same requirement as soon as legislators catch up. What will happen to pricing then?

sgbett

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Quote from: rebuilder on June 05, 2014, 06:11:20 AM

A big difference between BitPay and PayPal or Visa is BitPay isn't required to provide a chargeback service. It's my understanding this is a legal requirement for the companies that do provide it, and I find it hard to believe BitPay won't be faced with the same requirement as soon as legislators catch up. What will happen to pricing then?

What is interesting about that, is that in terms of avoiding chargebacks it makes using bit pay less attractive than just using bitcoin itself.

I'm not saying send BTC blind (course you can if you want) but in a hazy-trust situation use the mechanism(s) present in the BTC protocol (e.g. multi signed transactions/escrow etc). I don't know where we are in terms of easy to use public implementations of such things, but I understand those things are possible?

One step further away from fiat...

piramida

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Borsche

I think paypal fees are actually closer to 5% for small (several dollar) sales, as far as I remember having to deal with them several years ago. Because there's percentage + fixed fee.

Other than that, definitely bitcoin is the money for the internet, no doubt about that. Any other system will pale in comparison just because they all have to use ugly kludges to operate on the internet (apart from paypal, which spends it's 5% having to fight all kinds of scammers, chargebackers, etc - main reason they are still after all those years hardly cover 1/3rd of the world).

10c

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I'm not sure because back then gox had quite few $ on stamp
and since gox was #1 that's what a lot users looked at.

Luckily things have changed and we now use bitcoinaverage like services

Quote from: oda.krell on June 05, 2014, 06:12:52 AM

Quote from: 10c on June 05, 2014, 06:08:03 AM

I have built a few sites for clients in the past that use bitpay and the price gap was an issue because of high priced items they sold (mainly metals and jewels) margins were tight in the market and the offset disrupted the prices quite a bit

I see. Something to watch out for then, I guess.

Wonder if there's a site that tracks historic Bitpay rates vs. market rates.

oda.krell

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Quote from: 10c on June 05, 2014, 06:08:03 AM

I have built a few sites for clients in the past that use bitpay and the price gap was an issue because of high priced items they sold (mainly metals and jewels) margins were tight in the market and the offset disrupted the prices quite a bit

I see. Something to watch out for then, I guess.

Wonder if there's a site that tracks historic Bitpay rates vs. market rates.

rebuilder

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A big difference between BitPay and PayPal or Visa is BitPay isn't required to provide a chargeback service. It's my understanding this is a legal requirement for the companies that do provide it, and I find it hard to believe BitPay won't be faced with the same requirement as soon as legislators catch up. What will happen to pricing then?

10c

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I have built a few sites for clients in the past that use bitpay and the price gap was an issue because of high priced items they sold (mainly metals and jewels) margins were tight in the market and the offset disrupted the prices quite a bit

oda.krell

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Quote from: blatchcorn on June 05, 2014, 06:01:05 AM

I know that BitPay is bigger, but why isn't CoinBase such a big fundamental? Does BitPay provide a better service?

I don't know. Because I read about Bitpay this morning?

I don't have any shares in them so:

Yay for Coinbase as well! They're at least as good as Bitpay ^{(probably? tell me, please.)}

calmindifference

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Quote from: Ibian on June 05, 2014, 05:57:59 AM

Quote from: calmindifference on June 05, 2014, 05:47:23 AM

For fair comparison it's worth factoring in the bitcoin network running costs:

No, it isn't. The network is being run on a volunteer basis, and the people doing so are profiting from it.

You could apply that same argument about paypal.

oda.krell

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Quote from: 10c on June 05, 2014, 05:56:23 AM

ok as an extreme example I want to buy a $100 item;
bitcoin average says 1btc = 500
so I would need to pay .2 btc + miner fees
however according to the ticker the merchant uses (the bitpay api)
I would have to pay .3 so now my item is way more expensive than paying with paypal or visa which won't cost me anything

in other words it does matter to the merchant he won't sell me as I would be looking for an other merchant with better rates for me as a customer

Okay, got it now.

Bitpay's current exchange rate: 644.7

Bitstamp, median price of previous hour: 645.7

Less than 1% apart (actually, 0.15%). Possible that they price it such that they make a (small) profit on it, but you'd have to time your own buys/sells and following transactions pretty well to beat them.

10c

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Bitpay is the ideal chasm filler

blatchcorn

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Quote from: oda.krell on June 05, 2014, 05:56:52 AM

Quote from: N12 on June 05, 2014, 05:50:14 AM

Agreed with the main message, Bitpay is actually the strongest fundamental I know of. But as others said it needs to scale and it isn't proven yet. Bitpay may also have some hidden costs or risks that they have just been lucky to avoid so far.

Agreed as well.

Bitpay is arguably one of the strongest fundamental we have.

And 'will the network scale?' is the biggest open question right now.

I'm betting it will. The need for proof-of-work and confirmation time are in some sense an overhead when compared to centralized systems, but not to the point where I see the decentralized system, when coded and run by some pretty competent engineers, incapable to scale to the size of the centralized system.

Reminds me a bit of the old 'commercial' vs 'open source' software debate. Consumer market aside, there are areas (servers) where OSS is simply the de facto standard. In other words: it scaled well. I can absolutely see the same thing happening for Bitcoin.

I know that BitPay is bigger, but why isn't CoinBase such a big fundamental? Does BitPay provide a better service?

10c

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Bitcoin will scale when tx increases... if we don't bitcoin dies

Ibian

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Quote from: calmindifference on June 05, 2014, 05:47:23 AM

For fair comparison it's worth factoring in the bitcoin network running costs:

No, it isn't. The network is being run on a volunteer basis, and the people doing so are profiting from it.

oda.krell

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Quote from: N12 on June 05, 2014, 05:50:14 AM

Agreed with the main message, Bitpay is actually the strongest fundamental I know of. But as others said it needs to scale and it isn't proven yet. Bitpay may also have some hidden costs or risks that they have just been lucky to avoid so far.

Agreed as well.

Bitpay is arguably one of the strongest fundamental we have.

And 'will the network scale?' is the biggest open question right now.

I'm betting it will. The need for proof-of-work and confirmation time are in some sense an overhead when compared to centralized systems, but not to the point where I see the decentralized system, when coded and run by some pretty competent engineers, incapable to scale to the size of the centralized system.

Reminds me a bit of the old 'commercial' vs 'open source' software debate. Consumer market aside, there are areas (servers) where OSS is simply the de facto standard. In other words: it scaled well. I can absolutely see the same thing happening for Bitcoin.

10c

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ok as an extreme example I want to buy a $100 item;
bitcoin average says 1btc = 500
so I would need to pay .2 btc + miner fees
however according to the ticker the merchant uses (the bitpay api)
I would have to pay .3 so now my item is way more expensive than paying with paypal or visa which won't cost me anything

in other words it does matter to the merchant he won't sell me as I would be looking for an other merchant with better rates for me as a customer

Topic: "Bitcoin only has speculative value". Are you sure? - page 2. (Read 3644 times)