Bitcoin simply cannot replace fiat - page 3.

jballs

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Quote from: TheButterZone on December 02, 2013, 05:26:37 PM

Quote from: jballs on December 02, 2013, 04:35:13 AM

Name 5 of the 10 largest shareholders of the Federal Reserve

Hint

#1 Satoshi Naka..... (actually probably not. You're on your own.)

(edit- feel free to use google, phone a friend, call the Fed...anything you like. 10 BTC if you can name 5 of them.)

http://www.federalreserve.gov/faqs/about_14986.htm

Quote

The 12 regional Federal Reserve Banks, which were established by the Congress as the operating arms of the nation's central banking system, are organized similarly to private corporations--possibly leading to some confusion about "ownership." For example, the Reserve Banks issue shares of stock to member banks.

http://www.federalreserve.gov/releases/h41/current/
9. Statement of Condition of Each Federal Reserve Bank, November 27, 2013

shows each regional reserve bank, but you probably mean the end shareholders, which are the member banks below:

http://www.federalreserve.gov/releases/lbr/current/default.htm
(in millions, so #1 would be $1.947794e+12 USD, for example)
JPMORGAN CHASE BK NA/JPMORGAN CHASE & CO    1    852218    COLUMBUS, OH    NAT    1,947,794
BANK OF AMER NA/BANK OF AMER CORP    2    480228    CHARLOTTE, NC    NAT    1,429,737
CITIBANK NA/CITIGROUP    3    476810    SIOUX FALLS, SD    NAT    1,319,359
WELLS FARGO BK NA/WELLS FARGO & CO    4    451965    SIOUX FALLS, SD    NAT    1,284,538
U S BK NA/U S BC    5    504713    CINCINNATI, OH    NAT    349,333

Don't have enough time to parse the foreign banks below but I'm not seeing any in the major allies over 349,333 million USD.

http://www.federalreserve.gov/releases/iba/201303/bycntry.htm
Structure Data for the U.S. Offices of Foreign Banking Organizations

Yes that makes it all less opaque doesn't it.

So to answer the question, you incorporate as Bitcoinbehemoth Monstrosity NA, write covenants into your charter, hold the preferred stock with voting rights in the family vault, float a billion shares to the masses to stuff in their pension funds, completely diffusing any illusion of control over the entity, and hire a few lobbyists to buy the current government stooges and make sure they don't rock your boat.

If that was your objective, I mean.

LostDutchman

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Quote from: User705 on December 02, 2013, 04:26:11 AM

Quote from: LostDutchman on December 01, 2013, 12:01:53 PM

Quote from: b!z on November 30, 2013, 03:41:44 AM

http://letstalkbitcoin.com/bitcoin-simply-cannot-replace-fiat/#.UpmkkcRpmEw

Yes or no? What do you think?

I am in 100% agreement with the author and his premise.

BTC is best left as an underground currency to be used by those who will become the new financial elite.

My $.02.

Wink

How would one become financial elite but be underground?

Holding corporations, offshore accounts; offshore from USA anyway in countries which do not respect US currency laws (And there are a few!), VPS through TOR, anonymous debiet cards, cash transactions for crypto................................

Shall I go on?

You don't go to the club and buy hose rounds, thereby drawing attention to yourself.

You can buy Armani suits but cut out the labels.

You don't need a USD $3 million mansion; you only need a nice place to live.

As athe business agent for a corporation; any corporation you can reeceive a hefty salary, pay taxes on that and yet reap a gazillion corporate benefits.

Tax evasion?

Maybe but how much of your money to you want to send to a government to fight illegal wars?

Money laundering?

Any transaction the US government doesn't like can be called "money laundering".

The government has broken the social contract so in my opinion, whatever you do to protect yourself from that fiolation is fine by me!

Beleive me, there are ways to be very, very wealthy and completely off the radar.

My $.02.

Wink

TheButterZone

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RIP Mommy

Quote from: jballs on December 02, 2013, 04:35:13 AM

Name 5 of the 10 largest shareholders of the Federal Reserve

Hint

#1 Satoshi Naka..... (actually probably not. You're on your own.)

(edit- feel free to use google, phone a friend, call the Fed...anything you like. 10 BTC if you can name 5 of them.)

http://www.federalreserve.gov/faqs/about_14986.htm

Quote

The 12 regional Federal Reserve Banks, which were established by the Congress as the operating arms of the nation's central banking system, are organized similarly to private corporations--possibly leading to some confusion about "ownership." For example, the Reserve Banks issue shares of stock to member banks.

http://www.federalreserve.gov/releases/h41/current/
9. Statement of Condition of Each Federal Reserve Bank, November 27, 2013

shows each regional reserve bank, but you probably mean the end shareholders, which are the member banks below:

http://www.federalreserve.gov/releases/lbr/current/default.htm
(in millions, so #1 would be $1.947794e+12 USD, for example)
JPMORGAN CHASE BK NA/JPMORGAN CHASE & CO    1    852218    COLUMBUS, OH    NAT    1,947,794
BANK OF AMER NA/BANK OF AMER CORP    2    480228    CHARLOTTE, NC    NAT    1,429,737
CITIBANK NA/CITIGROUP    3    476810    SIOUX FALLS, SD    NAT    1,319,359
WELLS FARGO BK NA/WELLS FARGO & CO    4    451965    SIOUX FALLS, SD    NAT    1,284,538
U S BK NA/U S BC    5    504713    CINCINNATI, OH    NAT    349,333

Don't have enough time to parse the foreign banks below but I'm not seeing any in the major allies over 349,333 million USD.

http://www.federalreserve.gov/releases/iba/201303/bycntry.htm
Structure Data for the U.S. Offices of Foreign Banking Organizations

jballs

member

Activity: 182

Merit: 10

Quote from: User705 on December 02, 2013, 04:26:11 AM

Quote from: LostDutchman on December 01, 2013, 12:01:53 PM

Quote from: b!z on November 30, 2013, 03:41:44 AM

http://letstalkbitcoin.com/bitcoin-simply-cannot-replace-fiat/#.UpmkkcRpmEw

Yes or no? What do you think?

I am in 100% agreement with the author and his premise.

BTC is best left as an underground currency to be used by those who will become the new financial elite.

My $.02.

Wink

How would one become financial elite but be underground?

Name 5 of the 10 largest shareholders of the Federal Reserve

Hint

#1 Satoshi Naka..... (actually probably not. You're on your own.)

(edit- feel free to use google, phone a friend, call the Fed...anything you like. 10 BTC if you can name 5 of them.)

deisik

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Activity: 3514

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Quote from: User705 on December 02, 2013, 04:26:11 AM

Quote from: LostDutchman on December 01, 2013, 12:01:53 PM

I am in 100% agreement with the author and his premise.

BTC is best left as an underground currency to be used by those who will become the new financial elite.

My $.02.

How would one become financial elite but be underground?

The power is not bestowed, it is taken, in most cases by force. Those who will become the new financial elite would have to somehow get rid of the old one in the first place. The old one will indeed resist this in every way possible and try to nip in the bud anything threatening their power. These things have been very well known since Pharaohs and Ancient Rome...

User705

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First 100% Liquid Stablecoin Backed by Gold

Quote from: LostDutchman on December 01, 2013, 12:01:53 PM

Quote from: b!z on November 30, 2013, 03:41:44 AM

http://letstalkbitcoin.com/bitcoin-simply-cannot-replace-fiat/#.UpmkkcRpmEw

Yes or no? What do you think?

I am in 100% agreement with the author and his premise.

BTC is best left as an underground currency to be used by those who will become the new financial elite.

My $.02.

Wink

How would one become financial elite but be underground?

jballs

member

Activity: 182

Merit: 10

Quote from: bryant.coleman on December 01, 2013, 10:18:22 PM

Have you people heard about the news from Alderney?

http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/4903fc9a-591f-11e3-a7cb-00144feabdc0.html\

If this experiment is successful, then BTC CAN replace fiat!

An independent company will provide the Bitcoins. If the price plunged, neither Alderney nor the Royal Mint would lose anything.

The company would put the Bitcoins in an escrow account at an agreed price.

Meanwhile, the Royal Mint would take customers’ orders for its minted Bitcoins and receive money from those coin sales.

The virtual Bitcoins backing the physical coins would be held in digital storage facilities by Alderney.

The Mint would issue the commemorative Bitcoin, paying for the value of the gold content itself. Alderney would receive royalties from sales of the coins.

Coins could be redeemed for sterling at any point in Alderney for the price of a Bitcoin on that day.
All we can do at this point is sit back in wonder and amusement as we hit the pinnacle of monetary confusion, whereby the UK Royal Mint, willing to take full advantage of retail confusion, will mix hard, soft and digital currency, and produce a product... that is locked away on an island that belongs to the UK.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-12-01/uk-royal-mint-working-plans-issue-gold-backed-physical-bitcoins
-----------

Hahahhahahhaahhaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahahaha.

Sorry that sounds like the worst of all worlds to my untrained ear.

bryant.coleman

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Have you people heard about the news from Alderney?

http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/4903fc9a-591f-11e3-a7cb-00144feabdc0.html\

If this experiment is successful, then BTC CAN replace fiat!

LostDutchman

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Activity: 476

Merit: 250

Quote from: b!z on November 30, 2013, 03:41:44 AM

http://letstalkbitcoin.com/bitcoin-simply-cannot-replace-fiat/#.UpmkkcRpmEw

Yes or no? What do you think?

I am in 100% agreement with the author and his premise.

BTC is best left as an underground currency to be used by those who will become the new financial elite.

My $.02.

Wink

deisik

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Activity: 3514

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Quote from: AnonyMint on December 01, 2013, 04:06:55 AM

http://www.lewrockwell.com/2013/05/robert-wenzel/whats-ahead-for-bitcoin/

Quote

Ghandi said that first they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win, therefore Bitcoin will succeed

When they first kill you, then... well, then there will be no "then"...

AnonyMint

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http://www.lewrockwell.com/2013/05/robert-wenzel/whats-ahead-for-bitcoin/

deisik

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Quote from: jballs on November 30, 2013, 07:40:51 PM

As for Gresham's Law you're probably right, with the open question that should apply to all economic theory at this point...are we moving forward or backward. The internet has already killed a swathe of "laws". I'll reserve judgment until I am better informed.

Gresham's Law withstood centuries if not millennia. The Frogs will confirm, if you know what I mean. I don't think it is among that swathe of "laws" which Internet has already killed or will ever kill. It's rooted deep down inside human nature, and I doubt it strongly Internet (or anything for that matter) will ever be able to change that...

deisik

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Quote from: jballs on November 30, 2013, 07:40:51 PM

Probably I would be if I weren't still pissed off at Steve Jobs for not giving me my credit for inventing the ipod. Thought I'd at least get a deathbed confession. Such is life. We all miss a thousand opportunities a day, were I in this thing I would be pretty sketched out, opaque exchanges with long exit queues are not my cup of tea. But 'doing nothing' is terribly inaccurate, Banks printing themselves $85 billion a month, because they wrote themselves a law that says they can, that is much closer to nothing. People took risk, which isn't nothing, and spent time, which also isn't nothing, free markets drive capital where it already wants to go. No shame in profits.

I know, it's called an inventor's premium (or something like that), so no remorse either (I was not among the first early adopters). But for ordinary folks it looks like something along those lines really. You could have mined thousands of Bitcoins using crapware which would have made you a millionaire today. That's what people would think...

jballs

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Quote from: deisik on November 30, 2013, 04:32:02 PM

Quote from: jballs on November 30, 2013, 03:55:44 PM

Forgot to ask last post, did you just buy property with btc profits? Just curious, not pertinent to the discussion.

No, I bought it long before Bitcoin ever started... Having regrets that you failed to grab at this opportunity in time and did not get rich for doing nothing?

Probably I would be if I weren't still pissed off at Steve Jobs for not giving me my credit for inventing the ipod. Thought I'd at least get a deathbed confession. Such is life. We all miss a thousand opportunities a day, were I in this thing I would be pretty sketched out, opaque exchanges with long exit queues are not my cup of tea. But 'doing nothing' is terribly inaccurate, Banks printing themselves $85 billion a month, because they wrote themselves a law that says they can, that is much closer to nothing. People took risk, which isn't nothing, and spent time, which also isn't nothing, free markets drive capital where it already wants to go. No shame in profits. As for Gresham's Law you're probably right, with the open question that should apply to all economic theory at this point...are we moving forward or backward. The internet has already killed a swathe of "laws". I'll reserve judgment until I am better informed.

johnyj

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Beyond Imagination

No need to replace fiat unless there is a hyper fiat inflation and render it totally useless. Fiat is for spending, bitcoin is for saving, no overlap

Mike Christ

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Quote

Fiat rules the world because it’s what people are used to.

This is the equivalent of starting your argument with, "Well..."

Quote from: The author when faced with the invention of the automobile

Carriages rule the world because it's what people are used to.

We clearly see where the argument against the horseless wagon went: out one hole and into another.

deisik

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Quote from: jballs on November 30, 2013, 03:55:44 PM

Quote from: deisik on November 30, 2013, 03:18:36 PM

Quote from: jballs on November 30, 2013, 02:56:09 PM

I certainly hope so, else I would still be shitting in my diapers.

Should I take it as a confirmation that shitting in your diapers would mean an unbiased view on life?

'An unbiased view on life' is an oxymoron.

But it was you who said that your skewed by life experiences opinion helped you stop shitting in your diapers! I did nothing but reversed your logic a little...

deisik

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Quote from: jballs on November 30, 2013, 03:55:44 PM

Forgot to ask last post, did you just buy property with btc profits? Just curious, not pertinent to the discussion.

No, I bought it long before Bitcoin ever started... Having regrets that you failed to grab at this opportunity in time and did not get rich for doing nothing?

deisik

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Quote from: jballs on November 30, 2013, 03:55:44 PM

There is a lot of shorthand here and I'm going to cut to the point to stay on topic or try anyway. I would like to see broadly less need for government. I don't view most governments as sane given the current state of humanity. I see them as self-interested primarily, their raison d'etre being to serve the people but that being not their current agenda. I'm fairly ignorant on how btc would interface in a global system that was fully unfettered by national agendas. I can see how governments would adopt altcoins, 99% of my fiat is already digital and the banks have wanted to go cashless for a long time (bluetooth was partnered with US banks early on to try and implement it but fell a little short). If governments did accept bitcoins for the coercive side of the economy (taxes, fees & fines), yes that would be a massive incentive to stop using fiat entirely. So long as any legal tender is coercive, then no, nothing else can fully replace it unless the government is replaced instead. Both can coexist in the meanwhile though, certainly.

There is nothing more far from truth than this!

If governments decided to accept bitcoins for taxes and all that stuff on par with fiat, people would still be paying with fiat whenever possible while hoarding bitcoins in their wallets. Just another example of Gresham's law in action, i.e. bad inflating money (dollars or whatever) driving good deflating money (Bitcoin) out of circulation...

pand70

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Quote from: BittBurger on November 30, 2013, 03:57:35 PM

Quote from: ajax3592 on November 30, 2013, 04:06:46 AM

Well it will remain as an alternative to fiat, since 25% of the adult population of world is Illiterate. They can't even read numbers, how would they handle virtual wallets.

Nice article there btw John.

The more important number is what percent of the world has a smart phone. Or will have a smart phone.

That's all that will be needed.

I remember some news from a tribe in africa that an organization gave them 200 tablets or something for free as an experiment.
The tribe people was illiterate and knew no english. Some months later they 've hacked the tablets already and they were teaching each other english.

Topic: Bitcoin simply cannot replace fiat - page 3. (Read 7201 times)