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Topic: Bitcoin spending - page 2. (Read 2365 times)

full member
Activity: 210
Merit: 100
July 20, 2013, 01:29:56 PM
#26
I must be doing it all wrong (quite possible).  Could you walk me through your typical transaction?

1) Spend Bitcoins for whatever I want
2) Rebuy at bitcoin.de using onlinebanking (0.5% fee), no bitcoin transaction fee from there
(possible third step: transfer to local wallet and making the payment from there, 0.0001 Btc fee)


Please, let's at least be honest.  I've never used bitcoin.de -- they don't seem to like mah dollars, but i hopped over to check the site out.  This is what i've learned from TOS:

"The operator does not determine the price of a Bitcoin in relation to the exchangeable currency ... The price of the Bitcoin is solely determined by the sales contracts concluded from the purchase requests and sales offers ..."

"Marketplace fee 1%" -- shared by buyer & seller, thus a total of 1% -- the seller must mark up his price by .5% percent; TL;DR:  it's 1%, not .5%

Going to the "market" page, i found some bitcoins on offer: 3 BTC ~5% over BTC-E price, and climbing in price from there.  Edit: woops.  last "trade" on bitcoin.de was for 70.44 euro/btc, vs. BTC-E 69.4 Smiley  Help me here.

Now, please walk me through this again? Smiley

hero member
Activity: 756
Merit: 501
There is more to Bitcoin than bitcoins.
July 20, 2013, 01:21:00 PM
#25
The most important thing for bitcoin right now, in my opinion, is that people use them. It will be hard for bitcoin to move forward if people don't. I would like anyone interested, therefore to state:

* Whether they have ever bought anything with bitcoin. I would also find it helpful if people who have never bought anything with bitcoin could contribute to give a realistic picture.
* How much (in vague terms if necessary) they spend a year with bitcoins.
* If they have never bought anything with bitcoin, why not.
* How they think people might be encouraged to use their coins in transactions to stimulate the bitcoin economy

I think that such responses could help give a feel for the state of the real bitcoin economy as opposed to just mining and speculation

Cheers.

Yes. I bought a t-shirt, subscriptions to two different services, and donated to quite a few causes, big and small. In all cases, transacting in bitcoins was easier, simpler, and faster than using a credit card.

Another important use case for me has been international money transfers, as luckily there is enough liquidity in both markets. Again, simpler and cheaper than going through the old routes (once I got everything figured out and set up). This came to an abrupt stop after Dwolla/Gox fiasco, and I haven't bothered re-evaluating my options.

As for the encouragement, I know a person who has been carefully advocating Bitcoin use among the local businesses in my town. I shall not be spilling the beans here at this point, but it seems that in a week or so we will have a locally-owned chain of coffee shops accepting BTC payments. Also, it is a good idea to include "bitcoin accepted" whenever you are selling something through online classifieds like craigslist or kijiji.

I am contemplating getting some wine from the Rollingdale Winery.

As bitcoin transactions are not reversible, I try to make sure the seller is reputable or otherwise low-risk.
full member
Activity: 210
Merit: 100
July 20, 2013, 01:05:26 PM
#24
"I agree with your conclusion, but not your reasoning.  "Over monetized fiat-based economy" has nothing to do with Bitcoin value (not sure what you mean by "over-monetised", but my guess is "too much paper money"?  What would "the right amount" be?)"

I couldn't say what the "right" amount would be in terms of a value because there is so much theoretical fiat money in existence that only a systems-analysis perspective could even approach the question. In general terms the "right" amount of money would maintain price stability and the value of the money (in my opinion) and would see the price of most goods and commodities being set through the equilibration of supply and demand. That is not the case.

In other words, your ideal economy is one with exactly 0% inflation?  Money should be printed in times when economy is booming, and torched when it tanks?  I realize this is a cheap shot, but what, exactly, would the mechanics be for maintaining this 0%?  

Quote
Prices of government bonds (above all), equities, gold, bitcoin, housing (in many places including the UK) are all going up, even though the underlying economy is wretched, as the wealthy and corporations desperately search from somewhere to stash their mountains of fiat cash. This is a demand, of sorts, but only one of speculation rather than valuing the underlying asset.

I'm not sure if i'm reading you correctly, but it seems that you're mistakenly lumping currencies together with investment tools.  Money is not an investment tool.  It was never intended for hoarding -- that's one of the reasons deflationary economy is considered a "bad thing."  I hope i'm preaching to the chorus when i say that "saving" is *the opposite* of investing.  Investing is *spending*.  "Use it or lose it," that's how money is meant to work.  Not "use it or put it under your mattress."

Quote
Of all these bubbles John Quiglin said of bitcoin: "Bitcoin is perhaps the finest example of a pure bubble". The over-monetized fiat economy has everything to do with the bitcoin bubble: people are driven into exotic investments by inflation and low interest rates. If inflation is higher than the bank interest rate then what to you do? Invest. Accept risk. You might as well accept risk, even if you are naturally risk averse, because inflation will destroy the value of your savings anyway. That's why I got into bitcoin. So the over-monetized fiat economy has everything to do with it.

Let me get this out of the way first: i hope everything works out for you, and i hope you've considered conventional investment strategies & rejected them.  I doubt i'd be telling you anything new by mentioning that Bitcoin is one of the riskiest investments out there.  I'd say government bonds, which you listed beside Bitcoin as a booming investment, are substantially less nerve wracking. Smiley

Quote
"For your interpretation to be valid, Bitcoin value would have to be (# of dollars in circulation) / (# of coins in circulation) * (fudge factor).  This is obviously not, and has never been, the case."

No it wouldn't. My point actually concerns the effect that ultra-loose monetary policy, and the accumulation of vast concentrations of wealth in a few hands, has on peoples investment decisions. Look at any broadsheet newspaper in the UK. They are always going on about the next big alternative investment. Wine, stamps, antiques, you name it. Why?

Human greed?  Love for easy money?  Slow news days?  Take your pick.

Quote
You can't get decent bank interest. You have to take risks just to preserve your purchasing power. In this climate it is no surprise that a bubble has formed around bitcoin. There is an insatiable demand for novel investments and thats why the Winklevoss twins are getting into it. The American rich will likely take a close look at bitcoin.

Assuming that things are as bad as you say (i agree, to an extent), unstable times have always spawned "novel" stuff -- from scams to pseudo-spirituality to more social unrest to you name it.  Bitcoin was created as a currency -- a tall order in itself.  Now it got a sex change and became an investment.  I hope things work out.

Quote
The idea of buying bitcoins right now isn't because its better, its because there might be some "good" to doing so. This is a trickly one. In a market based society one tends to make decision based on which way the material incentives flow. As a result one's moral sense can wither somewhat. You see this in relation to illegal file sharing. I once saw someone argue that you "should" choose to pay for a certain product. Another person reacted angrily, saying that to do so when you could get it for free is insane. The idea of doing something for reasons other than immediate personal gain seemed to him to be irrational. However the idea in occasionally spending the occasional bitcoin is to help the fledgeling economy, perhaps because you believe in bitcoin as something other than investment.

I'm not preaching its just something to consider. I couldn't say that benevolence is my greatest virtue.


Ignoring "the good of Bitcoin" for the moment, i'm simply pointing out that (some) people misconstrue what the Bitcoin economy is.  They think it's SR & SD & buying ASICs -- i say it's traders trading in bitcoin.
sr. member
Activity: 364
Merit: 250
July 20, 2013, 12:38:09 PM
#23
I must be doing it all wrong (quite possible).  Could you walk me through your typical transaction?

1) Spend Bitcoins for whatever I want
2) Rebuy at bitcoin.de using onlinebanking (0.5% fee), no bitcoin transaction fee from there
(possible third step: transfer to local wallet and making the payment from there, 0.0001 Btc fee)
hero member
Activity: 980
Merit: 508
July 20, 2013, 12:21:58 PM
#22
"I agree with your conclusion, but not your reasoning.  "Over monetized fiat-based economy" has nothing to do with Bitcoin value (not sure what you mean by "over-monetised", but my guess is "too much paper money"?  What would "the right amount" be?)"

I couldn't say what the "right" amount would be in terms of a value because there is so much theoretical fiat money in existence that only a systems-analysis perspective could even approach the question. In general terms the "right" amount of money would maintain price stability and the value of the money (in my opinion) and would see the price of most goods and commodities being set through the equilibration of supply and demand. That is not the case. Prices of government bonds (above all), equities, gold, bitcoin, housing (in many places including the UK) are all going up, even though the underlying economy is wretched, as the wealthy and corporations desperately search from somewhere to stash their mountains of fiat cash. This is a demand, of sorts, but only one of speculation rather than valuing the underlying asset.

Of all these bubbles John Quiglin said of bitcoin: "Bitcoin is perhaps the finest example of a pure bubble". The over-monetized fiat economy has everything to do with the bitcoin bubble: people are driven into exotic investments by inflation and low interest rates. If inflation is higher than the bank interest rate then what to you do? Invest. Accept risk. You might as well accept risk, even if you are naturally risk averse, because inflation will destroy the value of your savings anyway. That's why I got into bitcoin. So the over-monetized fiat economy has everything to do with it.

"For your interpretation to be valid, Bitcoin value would have to be (# of dollars in circulation) / (# of coins in circulation) * (fudge factor).  This is obviously not, and has never been, the case."

No it wouldn't. My point actually concerns the effect that ultra-loose monetary policy, and the accumulation of vast concentrations of wealth in a few hands, has on peoples investment decisions. Look at any broadsheet newspaper in the UK. They are always going on about the next big alternative investment. Wine, stamps, antiques, you name it. Why? You can't get decent bank interest. You have to take risks just to preserve your purchasing power. In this climate it is no surprise that a bubble has formed around bitcoin. There is an insatiable demand for novel investments and thats why the Winklevoss twins are getting into it. The American rich will likely take a close look at bitcoin.

The idea of buying bitcoins right now isn't because its better, its because there might be some "good" to doing so. This is a trickly one. In a market based society one tends to make decision based on which way the material incentives flow. As a result one's moral sense can wither somewhat. You see this in relation to illegal file sharing. I once saw someone argue that you "should" choose to pay for a certain product. Another person reacted angrily, saying that to do so when you could get it for free is insane. The idea of doing something for reasons other than immediate personal gain seemed to him to be irrational. However the idea in occasionally spending the occasional bitcoin is to help the fledgeling economy, perhaps because you believe in bitcoin as something other than investment.

I'm not preaching its just something to consider. I couldn't say that benevolence is my greatest virtue.
full member
Activity: 210
Merit: 100
July 20, 2013, 12:20:57 PM
#21
"buy back the bitcoins you spent is ... patently absurd -- it costs me time, markups, transaction fees etc., etc. -- just to get back to having the bitcoins i started with.  All pain, all loss, 0 gain.  The trick also has dubious value to Bitcoin velocity if my bitcoins are instantly converted to fiat anyway (BitPay).

~0.5% fee and ~1-2 minutes, I don't think it's that bad.
At least I don't mind buying back the coins.

I must be doing it all wrong (quite possible).  Could you walk me through your typical transaction?
sr. member
Activity: 364
Merit: 250
July 20, 2013, 12:07:13 PM
#20
"buy back the bitcoins you spent is ... patently absurd -- it costs me time, markups, transaction fees etc., etc. -- just to get back to having the bitcoins i started with.  All pain, all loss, 0 gain.  The trick also has dubious value to Bitcoin velocity if my bitcoins are instantly converted to fiat anyway (BitPay).

~0.5% fee and ~1-2 minutes, I don't think it's that bad.
At least I don't mind buying back the coins.
full member
Activity: 210
Merit: 100
July 20, 2013, 11:51:39 AM
#19
That is partially but not entirely true. Pure speculative forces can make the price skyrocket. Already they have done so. The increase in the price of bitcoin from $0.25 to $100 had nothing to do with the expansion of the real bitcoin economy but only concerned speculation. Because bitcoin exists in parallel to a dramatically over monetized fiat based economy it is entirely possible for money to pour into bitcoins as a novel asset class. In an over monetised world, bubbles are the norm.

I agree with your conclusion, but not your reasoning.  "Over monetized fiat-based economy" has nothing to do with Bitcoin value (not sure what you mean by "over-monetised", but my guess is "too much paper money"?  What would "the right amount" be?)

For your interpretation to be valid, Bitcoin value would have to be (# of dollars in circulation) / (# of coins in circulation) * (fudge factor).  This is obviously not, and has never been, the case.

Bitcoin's value is speculative -- traders *bet* on how much *other traders* will be willing to pay for 1 BTC in the future.  Understanding this is essential to investing in Bitcoin.  
This doesn't mean that SD & SR aren't factors in Bitcoin's price -- they are.  But exchanges -- where people trade Bitcoin -- are way more important.

Quote
I didn't say that I had the attitude of never using bitcoins I said I partially share it. I'm tight with fiat money so I'm in no hurry to spend bitcoins I don't have to.

I don't blame you.  It costs me money to by bitcoins, i take risks using them to buy (no chargeback), there's no immediate incentive to buy with Bitcoin (most merchants accepting Bitcoin accept fiat, the prices are meh & selection is worse), while "buy back the bitcoins you spent is ... patently absurd -- it costs me time, markups, transaction fees etc., etc. -- just to get back to having the bitcoins i started with.  All pain, all loss, 0 gain.  The trick also has dubious value to Bitcoin velocity if my bitcoins are instantly converted to fiat anyway (BitPay).
sr. member
Activity: 364
Merit: 250
July 20, 2013, 11:40:07 AM
#18
I don't mind spending Bitcoins at all, because I can just rebuy them.
If something is something I need/want is aviable to purchase in Bitcoins instead of $/€, I would buy it, but I won't buy things just because they are aviable for Bitcoins (or pay any premium to buy in Bitcoins, it should be cheaper to buy with them - or at least not more expensive).
So far I've purchased an Humble Indie Bundle.
full member
Activity: 364
Merit: 100
July 20, 2013, 11:15:44 AM
#17
good idea ... I talked to some shop owners in germany accepting btc, and they said, very few people did pay by now with btc. As long it goes like this, we'll never see mass adaption.

I bought a amazon-giftcard (50Euro) on bitmit for 0,12 btc. like the deal. I try to spend btc as much as possible, cause it's the best way to spread them. Also I love to do a transcation with my wallet instead of online-bankink
legendary
Activity: 1778
Merit: 1008
July 19, 2013, 08:21:55 PM
#16
Arklan: cool

romerun: I'm quite tired so I though you said "I have 10K+ bitcoins as of now". Woke me up rather.

yea... problem is currently i'm only running 5ghash, upping to 7 shortly... it's a rough summer. Cheesy
hero member
Activity: 980
Merit: 508
July 19, 2013, 06:30:43 PM
#15
Arklan: cool

romerun: I'm quite tired so I though you said "I have 10K+ bitcoins as of now". Woke me up rather.
legendary
Activity: 2324
Merit: 1125
July 19, 2013, 06:28:55 PM
#14
as long as I still have fiat, bitcoin is the last thing I will spend, so far for 2 years i haven't spent a single coin on the normal stuff, because it feels very dumb, when you know it will be 1000+. But when it reach 1000, I might buy a ferrari with btc on the next day.

To me btc is lottery ticket, I don't spend it, until I win.

Just spend it an replace what you spend by spending fresh fiat crap.
legendary
Activity: 1078
Merit: 1001
Bitcoin is new, makes sense to hodl.
July 19, 2013, 06:28:07 PM
#13
I'm really just trying to guage attitudes, which vary.

You are right about mining. Every noob wants to mine. That is a problem. Some people think bitcoin is dead because of ASICS. In reality it just means most can't mine profitably.

If you look at romeruns attitude to bitcoin, no amount of expansion of retail will part him with his coins. He said "To me btc is lottery ticket, I don't spend it, until I win." He also said "i haven't spent a single coin on the normal stuff, because it feels very dumb, when you know it will be 1000+". I wonder how prevelant this attitude is.

I'm not condemning this attitude at all because I partially share it.

some say bitcoin will spread on bubble, not from those who just got in though, but from whom got rich from it. If I have 10k+ of btc as of now, I pry won't mind spending it. Every new high that we reach will leak coins from the old hoarders to others. It's just not yet my time. And this coin spreading is exponential phenomenal, at price of 1000, there will be a good amount of coin millionaires willing to spend coins on banana and bread, even they know that it could reach 10000, since it becomes less relevant to their wealth.
legendary
Activity: 1778
Merit: 1008
July 19, 2013, 06:25:05 PM
#12
i buy stuff with bitcoin all the time. sometimes i've had to sell the coin to get cash for what i was after, but bitcoin mining has been my only real income for a while now. steam games, various gift cards, few orders through bitspend when they were around...

about all that would make me use it more would be gift cards for walmart or target or some grocery store. that's about all i buy in cash anymore.
hero member
Activity: 980
Merit: 508
July 19, 2013, 06:17:44 PM
#11
That is partially but not entirely true. Pure speculative forces can make the price skyrocket. Already they have done so. The increase in the price of bitcoin from $0.25 to $100 had nothing to do with the expansion of the real bitcoin economy but only concerned speculation. Because bitcoin exists in parallel to a dramatically over monetized fiat based economy it is entirely possible for money to pour into bitcoins as a novel asset class. In an over monetised world, bubbles are the norm.

I didn't say that I had the attitude of never using bitcoins I said I partially share it. I'm tight with fiat money so I'm in no hurry to spend bitcoins I don't have to.
hero member
Activity: 593
Merit: 505
Wherever I may roam
July 19, 2013, 06:08:12 PM
#10
I'm really just trying to guage attitudes, which vary.

You are right about mining. Every noob wants to mine. That is a problem. Some people think bitcoin is dead because of ASICS. In reality it just means most can't mine profitably.

If you look at romeruns attitude to bitcoin, no amount of expansion of retail will part him with his coins. He said "To me btc is lottery ticket, I don't spend it, until I win." He also said "i haven't spent a single coin on the normal stuff, because it feels very dumb, when you know it will be 1000+". I wonder how prevelant this attitude is.

I'm not condemning this attitude at all because I partially share it.

The problem is: if you keep all your coins and all the other users do the same, how on earth you think the price you're aiming to will be reached? No spending=no merchants accepting bitcoins (why they should?)=no wider adoption=no increase in value
You just have to pray others have a different mind set..
hero member
Activity: 980
Merit: 508
July 19, 2013, 06:04:48 PM
#9
Incidentally franky1, how on earth do you replenish your hoard? Thats a good trick. It can't be day trading because if you've got rid of your hoard then you've got nothing to day trade with!
hero member
Activity: 980
Merit: 508
July 19, 2013, 05:55:48 PM
#8
I'm really just trying to guage attitudes, which vary.

You are right about mining. Every noob wants to mine. That is a problem. Some people think bitcoin is dead because of ASICS. In reality it just means most can't mine profitably.

If you look at romeruns attitude to bitcoin, no amount of expansion of retail will part him with his coins. He said "To me btc is lottery ticket, I don't spend it, until I win." He also said "i haven't spent a single coin on the normal stuff, because it feels very dumb, when you know it will be 1000+". I wonder how prevelant this attitude is.

I'm not condemning this attitude at all because I partially share it.
hero member
Activity: 593
Merit: 505
Wherever I may roam
July 19, 2013, 05:45:29 PM
#7
i have spend my hoard 3 times over, i just have knowledge and experience to recoup my hoard Cheesy

but the simple point is unless there is a variety of ways for people to decide to spend their coins directly, eventually 21 tonnes of mannure can be worth more to farmers then 21 million bitcoins. because mannure has a multitude of uses.

so we really need a retail push and a slowdown on the mining publicity. many noobs come into bitcoin thinking they can turn their gaming machines into millionaire makers. this is not the case.

in the real world the richist ppeople are not gold barons digging for gold, that was so 19th century. now the richest people are people like the walmart family, microsoft, apple. the people that have product to sell.

That's exactly the point in my opinion!

But I mumble and mumble on this: in order to have people widely spending their bitcoins we need a sort of "stability" in the value, otherwise they will tend to keep them in their wallets (or not using them from the beginning) rather than using them. A slow fluctuation is ok, a slow increase in their value is probably what we need to stop people buying them just for "trading" rather than for using them as a currency. This would and probably will force pretty any merchant to accept them, to stay in business and also because in turn they can use them to buy the products their selling. The problem is that a quick adoption obviously lead to a sudden increase in value and we are again at the starting point, people will keep them rather than spending them..

It's a strange concept: it's my opinion that bitcoins need a "slow" success. A huge and suddend adoption and we will have again what happened in April. 

Ok, now the reply to OP's question: I have coins and I've also spent some (not more than 10 though) in IT stuff.
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