Topic: bitcoin-trader.biz - page 81. (Read 203955 times)
So I originally posted this in this thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=518602.0;topicseen But of course it was deleted since the pumper is self-moderating the thread.
Has anyone actually received their principal back from this? 20% per month = double your money in 5 months. Madoff promised 0.83% per month using magical arbitrage strategies and the smart people knew that couldn't be real.
What is the total size of the trading fund? If you're doing arbitrage with your $1,000 account I could see a 20% return being possible. But arbitrage opportunities do not scale. There is a limited amount of arbitrage available in the market and lots of people competing to get it. And according to bitcoin-trader.biz they are doing manual trading. How could it be possible for them to get the large amount of arbitrage profits they'd need for those level of returns, especially when they are at a huge disadvantage to automated traders?
Plus they are reporting returns of around 1% per day. That's a 3778% APY when compounded daily (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-yield_investment_program). If they were getting those kinds of returns they wouldn't need to take anybody else's money. 1 BTC invested at those rates in April 2013 would be worth 4,100,974,661,233,895 BTC today. Or you know, 300,000,000 times the total supply of Bitcoins.
I'm calling it: PONZI
And also:
Has anyone actually received their principal back from this? 20% per month = double your money in 5 months. Madoff promised 0.83% per month using magical arbitrage strategies and the smart people knew that couldn't be real.
What is the total size of the trading fund? If you're doing arbitrage with your $1,000 account I could see a 20% return being possible. But arbitrage opportunities do not scale. There is a limited amount of arbitrage available in the market and lots of people competing to get it. And according to bitcoin-trader.biz they are doing manual trading. How could it be possible for them to get the large amount of arbitrage profits they'd need for those level of returns, especially when they are at a huge disadvantage to automated traders?
Plus they are reporting returns of around 1% per day. That's a 3778% APY when compounded daily (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-yield_investment_program). If they were getting those kinds of returns they wouldn't need to take anybody else's money. 1 BTC invested at those rates in April 2013 would be worth 4,100,974,661,233,895 BTC today. Or you know, 300,000,000 times the total supply of Bitcoins.
I'm calling it: PONZI
And also:
Quote
FYI bitcoin-trader.biz was registered October 2013 (http://who.is/whois/bitcoin-trader.biz). OP [in that other thread] said they started in April 2013, six months before the domain was registered. Maybe they used a different domain, but just something to be aware of.
Also 120 days means once you invest you can't withdraw for that long? Sounds like a way to get lots of people's money, report that they're making lots of gains, but never pay out. Why would you restrict when they are able to withdraw?
Also 120 days means once you invest you can't withdraw for that long? Sounds like a way to get lots of people's money, report that they're making lots of gains, but never pay out. Why would you restrict when they are able to withdraw?
Official Facebook Group from Bitcoin-Trader https://www.facebook.com/groups/629441250471567/
There will be around daily to answer your questions and discuss you concerns.
There will be around daily to answer your questions and discuss you concerns.
Great! I will join.
Official Facebook Group from Bitcoin-Trader https://www.facebook.com/groups/629441250471567/
There will be around daily to answer your questions and discuss you concerns.
There will be around daily to answer your questions and discuss you concerns.
No nightly tweet of today's %?
Does anyone know please?
Does anyone know please?
Tweet was posted as well, a bit later than usual though. The market was very flat today, I was busy a bit on btc-e all day, no depth at all.
Thank you
No nightly tweet of today's %?
Does anyone know please?
Does anyone know please?
johny, usually less than 24 hrs..
An interesting phenomenon due to the lowering in valuation of BTC is that measured in USD i have cashed out 22% of my investment. But measured in BTC (which is what i transferred initially) i have cashed out close to 50% since February 13th. I did not put all money in at once, it has been a gradual increase. 45% at the beginning in Feb and the other 55% gradually in the next 2 months.
Conceding the probability that BTC will rise in valuation in the future and even hypothesizing that BT.biz will not refund the initial cost of share for whatever reason which is a worse-worse scenario, i reckon i will come out even in my speculative/gambling/investment.
Another thing of interest is that when BTC goes down in price Vs. the USD the % return for that day will be lower which leads me to venture the opinion that at least some of the arbitrage of the company is done against USD, ergo when btc rises we will see modest increases in % earned for the day which will not necessarily reflect the percentage moves of the underlying USD/BTC pair.
I will not reinvest any more till the first loop of maturity comes due mid june.
As with any other investment/speculative venture in BTC, do not risk that which you cannot lose. I am not an investment advisor and anybody that construes the above paragraphs as advise -or anything but deranged musings- is delusional.
My best advise: have fun.
An interesting phenomenon due to the lowering in valuation of BTC is that measured in USD i have cashed out 22% of my investment. But measured in BTC (which is what i transferred initially) i have cashed out close to 50% since February 13th. I did not put all money in at once, it has been a gradual increase. 45% at the beginning in Feb and the other 55% gradually in the next 2 months.
Conceding the probability that BTC will rise in valuation in the future and even hypothesizing that BT.biz will not refund the initial cost of share for whatever reason which is a worse-worse scenario, i reckon i will come out even in my speculative/gambling/investment.
Another thing of interest is that when BTC goes down in price Vs. the USD the % return for that day will be lower which leads me to venture the opinion that at least some of the arbitrage of the company is done against USD, ergo when btc rises we will see modest increases in % earned for the day which will not necessarily reflect the percentage moves of the underlying USD/BTC pair.
I will not reinvest any more till the first loop of maturity comes due mid june.
As with any other investment/speculative venture in BTC, do not risk that which you cannot lose. I am not an investment advisor and anybody that construes the above paragraphs as advise -or anything but deranged musings- is delusional.
My best advise: have fun.
Thanks for you advice and answer. Your elaborated analysis quite surpriced me.
What do you mean with 'loop of maturity'? The fund started in November, so + 120 days we are in February, when the first investors could pull back their capital.
The risks are here bigger as in total return swaps (20% a year at bitfinex), but when they are calculatable, its ok for me.
For the near future I dont see a rise in XBT as well no fall. XBT was normally very stable entity. However, when adaption fails or popularity grows again, than I would consider bitcoin-trader as a risky speculative investment. What i can see in the future is a slow rise in difficulty and steady development of the blockchain, what is going to make cryptos very successfull.
Thanks again for your answer.
I will mention one tidbit, there is one big HYIP promoter I talk to and he's part of the team I get my info on HYIP's when I make my HYIP decisions. The admin of bitcoin-trader who was an unknown admin to the small circle of admins who run the HYIP industry offered $10,000 to the promoter to promote bitcoin-trader to his downline - he declined. Plus that promoter can make a whole lot more money without Bitcoin-trader's excessive bribe.
Sunny, you can't attack me enough to make me stop informing the Bitcoin community.
Sunny, you can't attack me enough to make me stop informing the Bitcoin community.
Prove all you accusations. You cannot call anything a scam without proving it, especially not a fine paying program. Anyway I will take the ride whatever the outcome. As long as they are paying me, all is good
That's kind of the point, they have to pay for some period of time. The reason why the same group of admins run successful sites and continue to be the group that controls the majority of the HYIP industry is because they run fair sites for as long as they can.
The admin of bitcoin-trader won't be doing that.
I'm doing my duty at protecting the bitcoin community by pointing out the big scams that are on their way, just like I did with btc-arbs.
OK Mr. Expert, then tell us how long will they pay, so just that we will know who is right here, you or Bitcoin Trader?
I will mention one tidbit, there is one big HYIP promoter I talk to and he's part of the team I get my info on HYIP's when I make my HYIP decisions. The admin of bitcoin-trader who was an unknown admin to the small circle of admins who run the HYIP industry offered $10,000 to the promoter to promote bitcoin-trader to his downline - he declined. Plus that promoter can make a whole lot more money without Bitcoin-trader's excessive bribe.
Sunny, you can't attack me enough to make me stop informing the Bitcoin community.
Sunny, you can't attack me enough to make me stop informing the Bitcoin community.
Prove all you accusations. You cannot call anything a scam without proving it, especially not a fine paying program. Anyway I will take the ride whatever the outcome. As long as they are paying me, all is good
That's kind of the point, they have to pay for some period of time. The reason why the same group of admins run successful sites and continue to be the group that controls the majority of the HYIP industry is because they run fair sites for as long as they can.
The admin of bitcoin-trader won't be doing that.
I'm doing my duty at protecting the bitcoin community by pointing out the big scams that are on their way, just like I did with btc-arbs.
I will mention one tidbit, there is one big HYIP promoter I talk to and he's part of the team I get my info on HYIP's when I make my HYIP decisions. The admin of bitcoin-trader who was an unknown admin to the small circle of admins who run the HYIP industry offered $10,000 to the promoter to promote bitcoin-trader to his downline - he declined. Plus that promoter can make a whole lot more money without Bitcoin-trader's excessive bribe.
Sunny, you can't attack me enough to make me stop informing the Bitcoin community.
Sunny, you can't attack me enough to make me stop informing the Bitcoin community.
Prove all you accusations. You cannot call anything a scam without proving it, especially not a fine paying program. Anyway I will take the ride whatever the outcome. As long as they are paying me, all is good
I will mention one tidbit, there is one big HYIP promoter I talk to and he's part of the team I get my info on HYIP's when I make my HYIP decisions. The admin of bitcoin-trader who was an unknown admin to the small circle of admins who run the HYIP industry offered $10,000 to the promoter to promote bitcoin-trader to his downline - he declined. Plus that promoter can make a whole lot more money without Bitcoin-trader's excessive bribe.
Sunny, you can't attack me enough to make me stop informing the Bitcoin community.
Sunny, you can't attack me enough to make me stop informing the Bitcoin community.
Pbmining gives 10% referral that is more suspect then This don't u think?
bitcoin-trader is a ponzi game. Legitimate companies offer affiliate programs, there is the cost of acquisition of a paying customer, sometimes higher, sometimes lower.
There are hundreds of legitimate companies that offer affiliate programs, but in your small minded brain all mlm programs from tupperware to avon are frauds and ponzi schemes. Nobody here is listening to you! Don't you get it? Go back where you belong, to talkgold.com.
That's what I said, legitimate companies offer affiliate programs. He was calling out pbmining as more likely a scam than bitcoin-trader when bitcoin-trader is a poor quality ponzi.
Here's a direct quote from the quote of my post you quoted:
Legitimate companies offer affiliate programs, there is the cost of acquisition of a paying customer, sometimes higher, sometimes lower.
So whats with our cloudhasing sites, like cex.io, cloudhashing.com? Are they all scams and ponzis? I mean its obvious that they are selling a service that will never make profit, if I look at the current bitcoin difficulty and compare it with their price per gh/s. It seems you haven't discovered them yet, since I don't see you posting there and they are more obvious scams than bitcoin trader.
Haven't looked into them to be honest. I'm not interested in mining, just actual Bitcoins and government policies on Bitcoin as well as HYIP's. So I cannot comment on cex.io, pbmining, or cloudhashing.
The core business of Bitcoin Trader is actually being a cloudhashing pool. So if you are bashing them you should have a look at the others as well - or are they paying you, since the hashing power BT is offering is a bit higher than the others?
The difference between Bitcoin Trader and those others I have not investigated is I know Bitcoin Trader is a HYIP ponzi that vehemently denies being part of the HYIP industry.
Bitcoin Trader has no core business of being a cloudhashing pool. Those others you mention may actually be cloudhashing.
And how do you know that, because they posted a warning on their contact page since they were tired of hundreds of cheap HYIP monitors contacting them all the time...
No that is just a ploy to look like they are not a HYIP ponzi. Anyways, the same way I warned everyone about btc-arbs, I am warning everyone here. The admin is a cheap scamming admin. The same thing will happen here as with all the poor quality HYIP admins who have promoted their programs directly to the bitcoin company, a bunch of people saying what happened? and realizing the ponzi game that it was. I've mentioned numerous reasons as to why they are a ponzi in this thread as well as in another thread or two. If you can't see it then I guess ignorance is bliss.
Pbmining gives 10% referral that is more suspect then This don't u think?
bitcoin-trader is a ponzi game. Legitimate companies offer affiliate programs, there is the cost of acquisition of a paying customer, sometimes higher, sometimes lower.
There are hundreds of legitimate companies that offer affiliate programs, but in your small minded brain all mlm programs from tupperware to avon are frauds and ponzi schemes. Nobody here is listening to you! Don't you get it? Go back where you belong, to talkgold.com.
That's what I said, legitimate companies offer affiliate programs. He was calling out pbmining as more likely a scam than bitcoin-trader when bitcoin-trader is a poor quality ponzi.
Here's a direct quote from the quote of my post you quoted:
Legitimate companies offer affiliate programs, there is the cost of acquisition of a paying customer, sometimes higher, sometimes lower.
So whats with our cloudhasing sites, like cex.io, cloudhashing.com? Are they all scams and ponzis? I mean its obvious that they are selling a service that will never make profit, if I look at the current bitcoin difficulty and compare it with their price per gh/s. It seems you haven't discovered them yet, since I don't see you posting there and they are more obvious scams than bitcoin trader.
Haven't looked into them to be honest. I'm not interested in mining, just actual Bitcoins and government policies on Bitcoin as well as HYIP's. So I cannot comment on cex.io, pbmining, or cloudhashing.
The core business of Bitcoin Trader is actually being a cloudhashing pool. So if you are bashing them you should have a look at the others as well - or are they paying you, since the hashing power BT is offering is a bit higher than the others?
The difference between Bitcoin Trader and those others I have not investigated is I know Bitcoin Trader is a HYIP ponzi that vehemently denies being part of the HYIP industry.
Bitcoin Trader has no core business of being a cloudhashing pool. Those others you mention may actually be cloudhashing.
And how do you know that, because they posted a warning on their contact page since they were tired of hundreds of cheap HYIP monitors contacting them all the time...
Pbmining gives 10% referral that is more suspect then This don't u think?
bitcoin-trader is a ponzi game. Legitimate companies offer affiliate programs, there is the cost of acquisition of a paying customer, sometimes higher, sometimes lower.
There are hundreds of legitimate companies that offer affiliate programs, but in your small minded brain all mlm programs from tupperware to avon are frauds and ponzi schemes. Nobody here is listening to you! Don't you get it? Go back where you belong, to talkgold.com.
That's what I said, legitimate companies offer affiliate programs. He was calling out pbmining as more likely a scam than bitcoin-trader when bitcoin-trader is a poor quality ponzi.
Here's a direct quote from the quote of my post you quoted:
Legitimate companies offer affiliate programs, there is the cost of acquisition of a paying customer, sometimes higher, sometimes lower.
So whats with our cloudhasing sites, like cex.io, cloudhashing.com? Are they all scams and ponzis? I mean its obvious that they are selling a service that will never make profit, if I look at the current bitcoin difficulty and compare it with their price per gh/s. It seems you haven't discovered them yet, since I don't see you posting there and they are more obvious scams than bitcoin trader.
Haven't looked into them to be honest. I'm not interested in mining, just actual Bitcoins and government policies on Bitcoin as well as HYIP's. So I cannot comment on cex.io, pbmining, or cloudhashing.
The core business of Bitcoin Trader is actually being a cloudhashing pool. So if you are bashing them you should have a look at the others as well - or are they paying you, since the hashing power BT is offering is a bit higher than the others?
The difference between Bitcoin Trader and those others I have not investigated is I know Bitcoin Trader is a HYIP ponzi that vehemently denies being part of the HYIP industry.
Bitcoin Trader has no core business of being a cloudhashing pool. Those others you mention may actually be cloudhashing.
Pbmining gives 10% referral that is more suspect then This don't u think?
bitcoin-trader is a ponzi game. Legitimate companies offer affiliate programs, there is the cost of acquisition of a paying customer, sometimes higher, sometimes lower.
There are hundreds of legitimate companies that offer affiliate programs, but in your small minded brain all mlm programs from tupperware to avon are frauds and ponzi schemes. Nobody here is listening to you! Don't you get it? Go back where you belong, to talkgold.com.
That's what I said, legitimate companies offer affiliate programs. He was calling out pbmining as more likely a scam than bitcoin-trader when bitcoin-trader is a poor quality ponzi.
Here's a direct quote from the quote of my post you quoted:
Legitimate companies offer affiliate programs, there is the cost of acquisition of a paying customer, sometimes higher, sometimes lower.
So whats with our cloudhasing sites, like cex.io, cloudhashing.com? Are they all scams and ponzis? I mean its obvious that they are selling a service that will never make profit, if I look at the current bitcoin difficulty and compare it with their price per gh/s. It seems you haven't discovered them yet, since I don't see you posting there and they are more obvious scams than bitcoin trader.
Haven't looked into them to be honest. I'm not interested in mining, just actual Bitcoins and government policies on Bitcoin as well as HYIP's. So I cannot comment on cex.io, pbmining, or cloudhashing.
The core business of Bitcoin Trader is actually being a cloudhashing pool. So if you are bashing them you should have a look at the others as well - or are they paying you, since the hashing power BT is offering is a bit higher than the others?
Pbmining gives 10% referral that is more suspect then This don't u think?
bitcoin-trader is a ponzi game. Legitimate companies offer affiliate programs, there is the cost of acquisition of a paying customer, sometimes higher, sometimes lower.
There are hundreds of legitimate companies that offer affiliate programs, but in your small minded brain all mlm programs from tupperware to avon are frauds and ponzi schemes. Nobody here is listening to you! Don't you get it? Go back where you belong, to talkgold.com.
That's what I said, legitimate companies offer affiliate programs. He was calling out pbmining as more likely a scam than bitcoin-trader when bitcoin-trader is a poor quality ponzi.
Here's a direct quote from the quote of my post you quoted:
Legitimate companies offer affiliate programs, there is the cost of acquisition of a paying customer, sometimes higher, sometimes lower.
So whats with our cloudhasing sites, like cex.io, cloudhashing.com? Are they all scams and ponzis? I mean its obvious that they are selling a service that will never make profit, if I look at the current bitcoin difficulty and compare it with their price per gh/s. It seems you haven't discovered them yet, since I don't see you posting there and they are more obvious scams than bitcoin trader.
Haven't looked into them to be honest. I'm not interested in mining, just actual Bitcoins and government policies on Bitcoin as well as HYIP's. So I cannot comment on cex.io, pbmining, or cloudhashing.
Pbmining gives 10% referral that is more suspect then This don't u think?
bitcoin-trader is a ponzi game. Legitimate companies offer affiliate programs, there is the cost of acquisition of a paying customer, sometimes higher, sometimes lower.
There are hundreds of legitimate companies that offer affiliate programs, but in your small minded brain all mlm programs from tupperware to avon are frauds and ponzi schemes. Nobody here is listening to you! Don't you get it? Go back where you belong, to talkgold.com.
That's what I said, legitimate companies offer affiliate programs. He was calling out pbmining as more likely a scam than bitcoin-trader when bitcoin-trader is a poor quality ponzi.
Here's a direct quote from the quote of my post you quoted:
Legitimate companies offer affiliate programs, there is the cost of acquisition of a paying customer, sometimes higher, sometimes lower.
So whats with our cloudhasing sites, like cex.io, cloudhashing.com? Are they all scams and ponzis? I mean its obvious that they are selling a service that will never make profit, if I look at the current bitcoin difficulty and compare it with their price per gh/s. It seems you haven't discovered them yet, since I don't see you posting there and they are more obvious scams than bitcoin trader.
Jump to: