Topic: Bitcoin v2.0 (Read 7546 times)

Besides the whole rediculous ponzi idea.
The users buying BTC @ 10.000 USD can still spend that bitcoin for an equal amount of goods and services. So, there's no loss for anyone using BTC as money. Only a high risk of loss or profit if you use it as an early investment.
Also, bare in mind that IF those people become wealthy they did do something for it. They started a revolutionary global 'free' currency.

Hell NO ! Most investors do not work in the companies they invest in. Early adopters did the same, they invested in buying some bitcoins while risking their money.
Bitcoin makes no promises: it cannot be a Ponzi. In a Ponzi, you buy in with a promise to cash out at a higher rate: not even remotely resembling bitcoin's bootstrap strategy.

If Bitcoin is not a Ponzi, there are a number of actual Ponzi in the real world, notably many retirement pension schemes.
It's therefore convenient for lobbyist to focus the attention on an emerging innovative system rather than explore the murky waters of incumbent systems.

OP another SolidCoin / MicroCrash sockpuppet? -.-

No. No. No. We aren't turning into SC.

You guys forgetting that ATM we all are early adopters. BTC is only $5 and still very small amount of ppl even heard about bitcoin.

To the OP: if you think that in 10 years bitcoin will be worth $10,000, whats stopping you from buying as many bitcoins as you possibly can? Dont you wanna be early adopter too?

And stop already about this stupid 1% inflation idea. Dou you really want your savings to be worth half as much in 70 years? Cuz i dont.

veddy veddy nize ya

The blockchain with the highest difficulty should be valued the most.  As the blockchain with the highest difficulty has the resources to take over any other blockchain and undermine its algorithm instantly - having more than 50% of the combined processing power.

"Mining is just an good advertisement for the network. 'MONEY for NOTHING' ? that's how 90% of the miners work. " - watch for quotation in my sentence here. 'MONEY for NOTHING' was sentence about HOW a lot of miners think about whole network. I personally know some of those and they still don't get that they are finding specific, meeting all requirements hashes. It's just system with free $s for them for running computer 24/7. That's perfect advertisement for whole network, but for late adopters it can be just pyramid scheme(early adopters will get a lot of cash but as topic growth i am changing my mind in this, as they will get a lot for being INVESTORS and early promoters investing cash in something worthless - and that's good - that's why we talk here, right? But many people will still think like i did and will never get the techincal idea of bitcoins and mining and THAT'S REALLY BAD. Let's just have hope miners will always get their cash back and system will grow in time).

And believe me - not only I have same thoughts about this, that's why i am talking about bitcoin 2.0 which can better distribute all coins at start, but probably will never exist, it's just SICK idea that is an utopia version of Bitcoin.


Finalizing all, as that's what i wrote probably will never exist, it's just idea, thought, couple of sentences on this forum:
I will be really happy if Bitcoin will at least replace all centralized systems like Paypal, Moneybookers.  As an alternative system it can be really good on internet, but replacing real currencies will be just too hard for Bitcoin. My idea was to replace currencies around the world after 10 or more years, but let Bitcoin spread first and then we will see what happens next. )

"...i am just talking about early adopters which will gain a lot of human resources for small portion of work."

you really need to try and get your head around the idea that there is no difference at all between risk, and work.

i'm not an early adopter (as you seem to understand it - in a year i suppose i will be considered as such).  but i wish that all those who've been accumulating Bitcoin, buying and selling using Bitcoin, and turning it into something real - get filthy stinking rich.  richer than i can even conceive of.

and i'm happy with what i've got and what i'm getting, because that's what i've earned - it is therefore what i deserve.

Nice way to backtrack.

As for your argument against my English, the point of language is to communicate.  If my sentences communicate my ideas cogently and concisely, then I consider it to be good English.  Excessive perfection of grammar and spelling is only something for uptight literature snobs to occupy themselves with.  You, however, are having difficulty both communicating your ideas and understanding the points that everyone else in this forum puts forward.  THAT is poor English, not misconjugating a negative gerund or misplacing an apostrophe at 3:30am.

@markm - i am not going to start my own block chain - it's just an idea where Satoshi (he is for sure here, i don't think he just went away from project of his life) can look at. However if you know any other systems RUNNING (or at least considered with pointed features) i would like to take a look:)

@Quantumplation - for your information i work in IT and i UNDERSTAND how the system works, i am just not a good writer. Technical side is not a problem and i NEVER considered mining here as scam. Read more carefully please, or ask if i wrote that in not understandable way. Mining will be always good to keep system working, i am just considering new start after 10 years which won't happen. (current mining IS unfair for late adopters BUT in future will work good to keep system secure, just like now. The problem i considered is that it can be fair start to everyone after 10 years with proper initial distribution also with mining to keep system working)
And please don't compare me to others until you read whole topic.

3) 'An unending, unquavering, unpersuadable attitude towards "the bitcoin doomsday" or "the Great Unjustice"'. -  no one says it will be forever unjust, i am just talking about early adopters which will gain a lot of human resources for small portion of work. BUT considering @rebuilder post i think if they will put all btcs within one month not just one hit then it will be all fine FOR SYSTEM, but still they will earn A LOT OK - let them be super rich, i just wan't to see how far bitcoin moves with everything with the way it's built.

Btw. if you do speak in English so good why i can't translate "unquavering" and "unpersuadable"? I understand what you mean, but google translator and other translators miss these words ; )
same stiches to "due to it's complicated nature" that should be "due to ITS complicated nature". You ALSO have deficiences in english. That was just one sentece i checked.

@billyjoeallen  - i totally agree , just looking for any system problems that can crack it in future and for improvements which won't happen probably

Regarding early adopter rewards, I think if Bitcoin ever becomes big on the scale being discussed here, the coins early adopters have accumulated will have been spread out considerably. Consider the hypothetical owner of 1% of all Bitcoin - what will they do with that money? Bitcoin, like all other money, only has value insofar as  you can exchange it for something. Currently anyone holding, say, 200,000 BTC is only hypothetically a USD millionaire. Trying to sell even a few thousand BTC will move the market significantly. The same will continue to apply in the future. No-one with 1% of Bitcoin could actually swing that much wealth around without seriously moving the market at the same time. In effect, such a person could spend smaller amounts at will, but try to hire an army of workers or build new pyramids, and they'll find their (and everyone else's) buying power rather seriously diminished.

tl;dr:
If you hoard large amounts of a resource and the market develops without those resources in circulation, you can't expect to be able to dump your hoard and not see a large drop in prices of said resource. Hoards are theoretical wealth.

+1, Amen

LOL as opposed to the current system where only virtuous, deserving people have fantastic wealth.  Seriously, the guys who cooked up the way to beat the violent monopolists who hold the world as slaves deserve to be fabulously wealthy. They took the early risks. They bought pizzas for what may eventually be billions of dollars. they wrote code without getting paid. You seem to want to compare Bitworld to some mythical ideal utopia instead of the real world or a realistic alternative. Every system has problems and bitworld is not different, but rewarding revolutionaries for giving us freedom is a feature, not a bug.

It seems like people like this have been cropping up since bitcoin began.  I remember a year ago having almost the exact same discussion with someone (even back then, when bitcoins were just barely worth more than the electricity it took to mint them, and everything was done on the CPU's and kilahashes.)

They all have a few similar features.

1) Very Poor English.  I think this leads to a lot of friction for them learning about how the system ACTUALLY works, for communicating their ideas well, or from considering the points that people rebuttle with.

2) A fundemental misunderstanding of economics/bitcoin.  "mining" being a scam?  The Mining is what holds the whole system together, what makes it cryptographically secure and worthwhile to begin with.  Maybe if you understood the whitepaper, or read a bit of the code, or took 30 seconds to think about WHY these choices were made, you'd understand that.

3) An unending, unquavering, unpersuadable attitude towards "the bitcoin doomsday" or "the Great Unjustice".

I wonder if Bitcoin, due to it's complicated nature, is doomed to be perpetually fraught with these "Throughput"s?  (Have a read of http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=547.0 for a good laugh.)

You don't even need to go to the trouble of creating your own new blockchain, there are plenty of startups already that you can buy into dirt cheap. In fact if you want to spread to a lot of people without costing them a lot and without the price growing so fast that within a very short time people are making this same complaint about early adopters having got it too cheap you should maybe even *try* to keep people from thinking it is going to be huge, going to make a fortune and so on.

In fact it might be best to try to come up with some method or approach that can somehow keep them from going up in price until all 21 million of them have been issued. Maybe tell people hey they are plenty more still coming, each day there are more so don't pay higher price for old ones, just wait a while for more new ones to be made or maybe even (depending on how exactly they are actually minted) participate in the minting process to make your own.

This can be done several times, so that if you think there might be more than 21 million people who might want one you can start making a new blockchain of another 21 million coins once the first 21 million are in circulation and there are still late adopters who would prefer a new coin costing only one of something instead of buying one of the already fully issued previous 21 million for more then one of something.

This might even be able to work like normal coins where you have different types trading at different values.

If you can clearly express all of the characteristics you are looking for in what the code should actually do in a blockchain you would like to buy into we can look over all the ones already out there to see if any of them match your criteria and if not then quite likely someone can easily start one that does match your criteria.

How much wealth exactly are you thinking of putting into whichever one does work the way you would like it to work?

-MarkM-

@weavejester: I dont want to be free of taxes, i just want pay that many btc's(or $) as it is mentioned to be in real instead of paying quazilions of $ additional taxes for the bureaucratic system with people sitting behind their desks answering my phone with lowered voice to piss me off.


If BTC != change for whole monetary system then BTC can be perfect currency over internet - it does have big potential with support of $, € or other currencies. No fees, centralization and safety with anonymity - that's what i like in here:) if i wan't - i pay fees to make things faster, goood. And here with this vision of this currency, it can be as everyone said. I just mentioned it as global system that will just exchange USD or other inflationary currencies:)

This way i agree with you and everything is ok in here:)


@goatpig - you don't get my idea of bitcoin 2.0 and its start moment/idea. Read what i wrote again please. And it doesn't have to be MY coin. It can be started by Satoshi to be backed up by good authority. Point here is that it will fail because everyone just put money into Bitcoin (lets say v.1.0) so noone will exchange. There is no way another bitcoin will have chances to survive as GLOBAL MONETARY SYSTEM unless ALL countries PROVIDE exchange of all their money IN WEEK OR MONTH ! No way it can happen. Thats why bitcoin v.1.0 will survive and will be some kind of investment program for first investors.


About deflation: tell me then how early adopters will be able to build houses for 1 coin or lets say 100 coins?? Who is losing ? Early adopters because THEY build those houses while early adopters sit and drink cold drinks for microbitcoins.

"i get it now, you're 12." - i am not insulting you, and i hope you won't too. Everyone have other thoughts, thats why we are here. I just say that bitcoin can be somehow bit more fair to all. That's all.

"double your monetary mass every 70 years"... if we consider people losing BTC's on their accounts then how it can be done? it will be stable if here will be small sum of coins coming everyday. Let it be 0.1% yearly then. Just to have miners working and paying their bills for electricity and GPU's.


About taxes: I WILL pay taxes, just not as high as now (it can be even 38% in my country). Deflation can happen, but not that high as now. It will stabilize someday for sure but now it's not usable.

@DATA COMMANDER: i know a lot of things are f....d up in current world and they will forever be probably. The point is to get everything as good as it can be for everyone. Not everyone think this way and that's a big problem People stupidity, malice and greed (this mainly those in up of the pyramid) make it all difficult. Currently my country will lack on money for future pensions. Sick, but true.


Btw. meanwhile:

http://bitcoin.sipa.be/speed-small-lin-2k.png

Bad luck or less miners ? I think those who invested in computers already stopped investing more because of BTC exchange rate stop.

I expect this currency to fail in the next 50 years. I feel computers won't be secure enough for crypto-currencies for about 6 generations (150 years). The value of bitcoins will crash if people feel their private keys are no longer secret and are being actively abused or tracked.

When the crash happens, the UN can act as a "neutral" third-party to start bitcoin 2.0. Hopefully, the second version will correct any oversights in the protocol. The "bitcoin trillionaires" would be wise to invest in computing and power generation infrastructure in order to get a head-start on this new currency as well.

All societies are pyramid schemes anyway. They start off with a few people stumbling upon vast amounts of usable land that no one else has found yet. After a few generations they are the "establishment", and future generations are at their mercy. Still, the "newbies" don't just up and leave, because they've grown up in the culture of the new society. A young man is promised that if he works for the first half of his life, he won't have to work for the second. Of course, this requires new "suckers" (the next generation) to support him in his old age.

Along the way, everyone becomes more secure and comfortable as technological discoveries are made, but each new generation is afforded less and less dignity. Except for the increasingly small ruling class--generally the direct descendants of the founders and a few very capable people who have "climbed up the pyramid"--the population is gradually stripped of general knowledge and self-sufficiency. Eventually the gap in wealth, knowledge, power, and culture between the elite and the (much larger) underclass becomes so great that communication between the two groups breaks down. The establishment stops promising newbies that if they work hard for a while they'll reap the rewards later. This usually comes to a head, with the ignorant, confused underclass feeling ripped off without being able to explain exactly why they feel that way, and the elite--having "drunk their own Koolaid", so to speak--indignant, unable to understand why these people, who have comfort and security--at the (hidden) cost of autonomy and dignity--are complaining.

At this point, the society usually collapses, either by falling prey to a younger, healthier society (like Israel fell to the Assyrians), or by simply consuming all of its wealth and disintegrating like the Romans.

LOOOOL  This just caused me to laugh uncontrollably for like 3 minutes straight.