Topic: BitCoin vs Visa as an investment (Read 4388 times)
Bitcoin is both money and transmission network. Visa is just a network.
I would say these are completely different.
I agree. Visa is a business that will most likely continue to be successful over time. Bitcoin is something that may or may not continue to have value in the future. Bitcoin is not a stock at all. And investing in Visa is likely not possible unless you are a legally "qualified investor". How do you become a qualified investor? You need to prove that you have a million dollars and that you make a half million per year. That's it.
What are you talking about? You can buy visa stock with any brokerage account. You need to have very little money to be able to invest in visa stock. Less then $100In fact, I can be your broker. Just send me the cash and I will gladly give you a piece of paper that claims you own Visa. If enough people do this, I will send "dividends".
I would go for VISA as there are many countries where BItcoin is not yet legal 
Also Visa will stay for a longer time, No one knows when Bitcoin falls..
Also Visa will stay for a longer time, No one knows when Bitcoin falls.. I would say these are completely different.
I agree. Visa is a business that will most likely continue to be successful over time. Bitcoin is something that may or may not continue to have value in the future. Bitcoin is not a stock at all. And investing in Visa is likely not possible unless you are a legally "qualified investor". How do you become a qualified investor? You need to prove that you have a million dollars and that you make a half million per year. That's it.
What are you talking about? You can buy visa stock with any brokerage account. You need to have very little money to be able to invest in visa stock. Less then $100 If that sounds unfair then you are beginning to see why fiat has become an unholy system to protect the rich. Basically, you and I are the "little man". Our job is to work our ass off, pay the taxes of the rich, and make money for the company.
Straw man argument. And what are you exactly to the Winklevoss twins? You are simply one of their pawns. Both fiat and bitcoin are geared towards making the richer rich and the poorer...even more poor. The whales (men in the suits) and early adopters control the market. Not the little men. Implying either fiat or bitcoin is a less corrupt system is laughable. Both have massive pros and massive cons, public perception wise bitcoin has been involved in a lot more scammy behavior percentage wise.
I would say these are completely different. Bitcoin is not a stock at all. And investing in Visa is likely not possible unless you are a legally "qualified investor". How do you become a qualified investor? You need to prove that you have a million dollars and that you make a half million per year. That's it.
If that sounds unfair then you are beginning to see why fiat has become an unholy system to protect the rich. Basically, you and I are the "little man". Our job is to work our ass off, pay the taxes of the rich, and make money for the company.
If that sounds unfair then you are beginning to see why fiat has become an unholy system to protect the rich. Basically, you and I are the "little man". Our job is to work our ass off, pay the taxes of the rich, and make money for the company.
The main thing is FEES and SPEED!
Bitcoin absolutely winner from that point
Bitcoin absolutely winner from that point
Visa is a huge accepted worldwide payment system.
Bitcoin is a hugely volatile currency that has lost massive amounts of value in recent times.
Low risk vs high risk investment
Small possible return vs huge return/huge loss or total loss
Bitcoin is a hugely volatile currency that has lost massive amounts of value in recent times.
Low risk vs high risk investment
Small possible return vs huge return/huge loss or total loss
My initial enthusiasm for the potential of BitCoin became tempered when
I realized that the proliferation of altcoins ( of dubious utility ) ment that there
was absolutely no barrier to entry in this space ( blockchain based transaction networks )..
Additionally, the fact that the software ( or nearly everything ) is open sourced tells me that
any reasonably funded entity can co-opt this technology ( including Visa, MasterCard etc )
for their own purposes at any time if/when blockchain technology becomes ubiquitous or proves
superior ( cost ) to the existing transaction networks ..
BitCoin may carve a niche for itself as a digital store of value ( digital gold ?? ) or as
a trading vehicle ( due to volatility ) or as an alternative currency ..
I realized that the proliferation of altcoins ( of dubious utility ) ment that there
was absolutely no barrier to entry in this space ( blockchain based transaction networks )..
Additionally, the fact that the software ( or nearly everything ) is open sourced tells me that
any reasonably funded entity can co-opt this technology ( including Visa, MasterCard etc )
for their own purposes at any time if/when blockchain technology becomes ubiquitous or proves
superior ( cost ) to the existing transaction networks ..
BitCoin may carve a niche for itself as a digital store of value ( digital gold ?? ) or as
a trading vehicle ( due to volatility ) or as an alternative currency ..
Thanks for all the responses so far to this thread ..
Here's the current Market Caps for publically traded transaction networks ..
Visa ( V ) 164 Billion
MasterCard ( MA ) 100 Billion
American Express ( AXP ) 96 Billion
Discover ( DFS ) 30 Billion
Ebay/PayPal ( EBAY ) 71 Billion
V/MA/AXP/DFS all have current yields of between 0.75-1.5% annually and
all currently raise their dividends to shareholders on at least an annual basis ..
V and MA's revenue model is very low risk in that it's all fee based ..
While AXP and DFS actually lend to their cardholders and therefore have
some default risk that V and MA don't ..
BTC @ $327.00 has a current market cap of 4.5 Billion and 6.86 Billion fully diluted
XRP @ $0.023 has a current market cap of 730 Million and 2.1 Billion fully diluted
( I added XRP to the discussion since it's currently in the #2 market cap position for crypto )
Due to the decentralized nature of crypto, I'm not sure how we assign appropriate "value"
vs the value of the corporately owned transaction networks ..
Ultimately, long term value in BTC may come more from it's "currency"
characteristics than from the blockchain/network ..
Triff ..
That didn't take long ..
On Dec 20th ..
V @ 261
BTC @ 327
Today
V @ 265
BTC @ 230
Triff ..
PS ..
Read the OP on this thread ..
Valid reasoning IMHO ..
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=923411.0;topicseen
Of course Bitcoin.
Visa is great investment, but it's potential almost reach limit.
While bitcoin still have a lot potential even there are much risk.
Visa is great investment, but it's potential almost reach limit.
While bitcoin still have a lot potential even there are much risk.
I guess the axiom of higher risk, higher expected return holds good in all cases.
Bitcoin certainly does have higher potential.
What are the pros/cons of making an equivalent long term investment in both BitCoin and Visa stock ??
Am I wrong to think that they are essentially equivalent ( both are low cost transaction networks )
other than the fact that Visa pays a small but growing dividend ??
Triff ..
Am I wrong to think that they are essentially equivalent ( both are low cost transaction networks )
other than the fact that Visa pays a small but growing dividend ??
Triff ..
You have a great possibility to earn a lot of money if you invest in Bitcoin and at the same time you can lose much money with this because market is many speculative. If you buy VISA stock you can't earn like bitcoin but (at the same time) you can't lose like Bitcoin
. VISA actually is at the full potential, process around 500 Million - 1 billion of transaction for day, Bitcoin have many many way to do for reach VISA numbers, because actually Bitcoin can only process 7 transaction for second (or 605.000 transaction for day).
So you think you own visa stock. Care to prove it with a signed message I can verify on a public network?
What you really own is counterparty risk with a bucket shop. Get out while you still can.
What you really own is counterparty risk with a bucket shop. Get out while you still can.
You can mimic dividend payments even when an asset has only capital appreciation. Regularly sell small amounts of your assets (percentage equal to dividend yield that you want). The rest of the asset appreciates. So that way, you have 'money now' as well as potential gain (albeit lower than what you would get if you held the entire asset) in the future.
The downside is people lack the discipline to systematically sell. It is easier for them when the company gives regular dividends.
It doesn't matter how the price increases/decreases. You can implement this strategy (ie sell 2 or 3% of the asset) irrespective of price movements. You can have price decreases even in the case of a dividend paying stock, can't you? In a falling price environment, this strategy would resemble that.
My initial enthusiasm for the potential of BitCoin became tempered when
I realized that the proliferation of altcoins ( of dubious utility ) ment that there
was absolutely no barrier to entry in this space ( blockchain based transaction networks )..
Additionally, the fact that the software ( or nearly everything ) is open sourced tells me that
any reasonably funded entity can co-opt this technology ( including Visa, MasterCard etc )
for their own purposes at any time if/when blockchain technology becomes ubiquitous or proves
superior ( cost ) to the existing transaction networks ..
BitCoin may carve a niche for itself as a digital store of value ( digital gold ?? ) or as
a trading vehicle ( due to volatility ) or as an alternative currency ..
I realized that the proliferation of altcoins ( of dubious utility ) ment that there
was absolutely no barrier to entry in this space ( blockchain based transaction networks )..
Additionally, the fact that the software ( or nearly everything ) is open sourced tells me that
any reasonably funded entity can co-opt this technology ( including Visa, MasterCard etc )
for their own purposes at any time if/when blockchain technology becomes ubiquitous or proves
superior ( cost ) to the existing transaction networks ..
BitCoin may carve a niche for itself as a digital store of value ( digital gold ?? ) or as
a trading vehicle ( due to volatility ) or as an alternative currency ..
Thanks for all the responses so far to this thread ..
Here's the current Market Caps for publically traded transaction networks ..
Visa ( V ) 164 Billion
MasterCard ( MA ) 100 Billion
American Express ( AXP ) 96 Billion
Discover ( DFS ) 30 Billion
Ebay/PayPal ( EBAY ) 71 Billion
V/MA/AXP/DFS all have current yields of between 0.75-1.5% annually and
all currently raise their dividends to shareholders on at least an annual basis ..
V and MA's revenue model is very low risk in that it's all fee based ..
While AXP and DFS actually lend to their cardholders and therefore have
some default risk that V and MA don't ..
BTC @ $327.00 has a current market cap of 4.5 Billion and 6.86 Billion fully diluted
XRP @ $0.023 has a current market cap of 730 Million and 2.1 Billion fully diluted
( I added XRP to the discussion since it's currently in the #2 market cap position for crypto )
Due to the decentralized nature of crypto, I'm not sure how we assign appropriate "value"
vs the value of the corporately owned transaction networks ..
Ultimately, long term value in BTC may come more from it's "currency"
characteristics than from the blockchain/network ..
Triff ..
You also get the benefit of receiving dividend income from owning visa stock, while you would likely need to spend some amount of money to keep your bitcoin investment secure
From a pure finance point of view, you will have to look at both dividend receipt and capital appreciation to get the total return.
Return on capital is how you should judge which investment has fared better.
Usually, if 2 companies have the same RoE, the Company with lower dividend payouts would be more tax efficient. In most jurisdictions, long term capital gains attracts lower tax than dividends.
You can mimic dividend payments even when an asset has only capital appreciation. Regularly sell small amounts of your assets (percentage equal to dividend yield that you want). The rest of the asset appreciates. So that way, you have 'money now' as well as potential gain (albeit lower than what you would get if you held the entire asset) in the future.
The downside is people lack the discipline to systematically sell. It is easier for them when the company gives regular dividends.
You also get the benefit of receiving dividend income from owning visa stock, while you would likely need to spend some amount of money to keep your bitcoin investment secure
From a pure finance point of view, you will have to look at both dividend receipt and capital appreciation to get the total return.
Return on capital is how you should judge which investment has fared better.
Usually, if 2 companies have the same RoE, the Company with lower dividend payouts would be more tax efficient. In most jurisdictions, long term capital gains attracts lower tax than dividends.
You can mimic dividend payments even when an asset has only capital appreciation. Regularly sell small amounts of your assets (percentage equal to dividend yield that you want). The rest of the asset appreciates. So that way, you have 'money now' as well as potential gain (albeit lower than what you would get if you held the entire asset) in the future.
The downside is people lack the discipline to systematically sell. It is easier for them when the company gives regular dividends.
This one is tough. Visa protects consumers with chargeback but that same issue is what drew people to bitcoin. A sense of people being more tired of PayPal and other ewallet bullshit is why I think a lot joined the bitcoin "club".
Honestly, ApplePay is currently making a huge dent for bitcoin growth and development IMO.
Honestly, ApplePay is currently making a huge dent for bitcoin growth and development IMO.
You also get the benefit of receiving dividend income from owning visa stock, while you would likely need to spend some amount of money to keep your bitcoin investment secure
From a pure finance point of view, you will have to look at both dividend receipt and capital appreciation to get the total return.
Return on capital is how you should judge which investment has fared better.
Usually, if 2 companies have the same RoE, the Company with lower dividend payouts would be more tax efficient. In most jurisdictions, long term capital gains attracts lower tax than dividends.
Visa not an investment. Visa wil dissapear eventually when transaction volume gets crushed by Bitcoin transaction volume. Visa is just a tool to move fiat.
The main advantage of investing VISA stock is safe and continually receiving dividends but the fact that Bitcoin offers soo much for growth cannot be neglected.
So, according to me both Bitcoin and Visa are a good way of investment.
So, according to me both Bitcoin and Visa are a good way of investment.
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