Bitcoin was created to reform money and provide financial freedom - page 6.

legiteum

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Quote from: BlackHatCoiner on March 01, 2024, 11:27:27 AM

If by "investors" you mean everyday laymen who wanna make a quick buck and saw a "Binance" ad in YouTube, then yes. But, if you don't, then I think you underestimate serious investors. I believe every serious investor in Bitcoin is capable of protecting a seed phrase. Not only that, but I believe they are aware of what happens to their money if the central broker goes out of business.

Speaking out of experience with my interaction with serious investors, they don't invest into stuff they don't understand. Buying bitcoin and keeping it in an centralized exchange means you don't understand it.

But serious investors invest serious money which most people wouldn't trust to physically hold in their hands where it can be lost or stolen. Most people invest their life savings in an account in their name so it can't be taken from them no matter what.

(And let's get real here: the "big boys" of investing of Bitcoin right now are playing with a placeholder they see having market momentum leading to increases in the selling price--they don't care about the technical details. It might as well be Teldar Paper to them).

Any institution can lose your money, and consumers know that, but even with the occasional problems, they still trust institutions who make it their job to safeguard people's money instead of their own physical guard.

Not too many people bury their life savings in the backyard or under the mattress, and not many hold their own private key they could lose when there's serious money on the line.

(My article, The Anon Paradox, points out the seeming paradox between wanting anonymity for "small" amounts of money like the cash in your wallet versus "big" amounts e.g. your savings, car or house wherein anonymity is actually a bad thing for most people).

BlackHatCoiner

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Farewell, Leo

Quote from: legiteum on February 29, 2024, 10:35:25 PM

In other words, if there were no central brokerages and all investors of Bitcoin were forced to mess around with private keys

If by "investors" you mean everyday laymen who wanna make a quick buck and saw a "Binance" ad in YouTube, then yes. But, if you don't, then I think you underestimate serious investors. I believe every serious investor in Bitcoin is capable of protecting a seed phrase. Not only that, but I believe they are aware of what happens to their money if the central broker goes out of business.

Speaking out of experience with my interaction with serious investors, they don't invest into stuff they don't understand. Buying bitcoin and keeping it in an centralized exchange means you don't understand it.

Quote from: legiteum on February 29, 2024, 10:35:25 PM

Unless we're talking about the cash in your wallet, most people want to keep their holdings in their name.

Sure, but you can't keep bitcoin in your name, whether you like it or not.

Plaguedeath

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Quote from: CageMabok on March 01, 2024, 05:35:43 AM

In the end, everyone will be aware of this after researching the benefits that can arise from using Bitcoin and its transactions, because Bitcoin has become better than any currency in the world so that everyone cannot deny that the use of Bitcoin will continue to increase accompanied by at the price too. Now large companies have also seen the benefits of using Bitcoin, so now there are companies that are willing to accept Bitcoin if they want to buy a product that they sell on the market.

I disagree, Bitcoin is only better in terms of borderless payments and decentralized if you use Bitcoin as currency, you will say Bitcoin isn't a good currency because you're always spend more than what you should (the product/service price + fee).

But, Bitcoin is better than any asset in the world because there are no other assets that can perform better in terms price and security than Bitcoin.

moneystery

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but that is the development of bitcoin, you cannot change that because that is the negative side of the decentralized system, where no one person controls the bitcoin ecosystem.

moreover, from the beginning, satoshi nakamoto developed bitcoin to provide people globally with a transaction system that is non-interventionist, decentralized, accessible to everyone, fast and secure. it does not aim to replace the role of banking or currency, but rather as an alternative that can be used by everyone.

the idea itself is mature and developing now, but if there is a negative side to it, we must be able to understand it and improve it as much as possible, because nothing is perfect in this world.

CageMabok

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Quote from: Volimack on February 29, 2024, 11:51:02 PM

These coins can be used to make financial transactions online. Since cryptocurrency transactions are conducted through the blockchain network there is no proof of origin. That's why bitcoin reaches where money or dollars don't. Common people as well as governments have started taking help of these coins to conduct their secret financial transactions. The more it is used the more the market value of bitcoin increases.

In the end, everyone will be aware of this after researching the benefits that can arise from using Bitcoin and its transactions, because Bitcoin has become better than any currency in the world so that everyone cannot deny that the use of Bitcoin will continue to increase accompanied by at the price too. Now large companies have also seen the benefits of using Bitcoin, so now there are companies that are willing to accept Bitcoin if they want to buy a product that they sell on the market.

bayu7adi

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dont be greedy

It is true, inflation can be prevented by limiting the supply of currency, but can this limited currency really be a solution and can it take over FIAT's current role? Of course I doubt that.

Bitcoin now and in the future may be more inclined to be used as a digital asset where many people will speculate on the price of Bitcoin and think about the profits when converted into FIAT. This limited supply is what triggers the psychology of many people to take advantage of Bitcoin as a profit generator, not as a transaction tool.

As an icon of financial freedom, perhaps this can be seen in Bitcoin. I also feel the same way when sending Bitcoin p2p without any interference from other parties. IMO Bitcoin has great potential as a freer currency of value.

lizarder

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Quote from: we-btc on February 28, 2024, 04:39:37 PM

The Bitcoin solution was to create a currency that had a limited supply and transactions that were peer-to-peer so that no financial institutions would have financial power over the individual.

There is no control and no government can interfere so Bitcoin stands alone without being controlled. Peer-to-peer transactions are its advantage and make bitcoin a source of freedom. This is a solution even though most countries only allow bitcoin as an investment asset.

Quote from: we-btc on February 28, 2024, 04:39:37 PM

I see the potential for Bitcoin and am working on projects to help with the original mission - financial freedom for individuals world wide.

This has been achieved because almost everyone involved in bitcoin investment gets the benefits of financial freedom compared to the previous fiat money system. Each individual can represent himself in bitcoin whether it is an investment or uses it as a transaction tool that accepts bitcoin. The legitimacy of bitcoin can be seen from the number of adoptions which continues to expand, making bitcoin increasingly popular with many people.

davis196

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Quote

Fast forward 16 years and almost all Bitcoin transactions are run through third parties. To buy Bitcoin most people use exchanges which you must KYC on. To store Bitcoin most people use wallets that require the use of 3rd party nodes for transactions. This includes Hardware wallets. Most people use Bitcoin like an investment not an electronic cash system. Banks are buying up large quantities of Bitcoin to hold for customers buying their ETFs. Arguably developers are adding things like ordinals to the code which have slowed transactions and increased fees above what would be reasonable for small financial transactions.

AFAIK, most BTC transactions are run on the Bitcoin Core blockchain, so you are wrong about this.
You are right about most of the things you've mentioned, but you didn't clarify what exactly is your dream. Bitcoin can give financial freedom, but only if you use it the right way(without centralized exchanges and third parties). Most of the people don't want freedom, they want profits. Obviously Bitcoin is too scarce to become an actual currency. The high price volatility is what stops mass adoption.
Bitcoin ETFs and the flood of institutional investors in the Bitcoin/crypto world can be a double edged sword, but so far, most of the Bitcoiners are enjoying the bull run, so they aren't against the money coming from the big banks and investment funds.

AVE5

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The potentials and the aims of bitcoin is at it best utilizations whereas every bitcoin holders has an aim for the holding, either for exchange for payments in place of the fiats or holding for investments with the aim of making profits.
But Op, bitcoin is not to equalize the fiat currencies rather bitcoin is a unified crypto currency which can be exchanged with any fiats currency.

Volimack

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These coins can be used to make financial transactions online. Since cryptocurrency transactions are conducted through the blockchain network there is no proof of origin. That's why bitcoin reaches where money or dollars don't. Common people as well as governments have started taking help of these coins to conduct their secret financial transactions. The more it is used the more the market value of bitcoin increases.

legiteum

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Quote from: BlackHatCoiner on February 29, 2024, 06:05:09 PM

But, has it really failed if these people choose to forfeit custody? I mean, if you personally don't care about self-custody, does that alter Bitcoin's goal or my interaction with Bitcoin? Bitcoin is all about freedom of choice in the end. It allows you to mistreat it.

Well, there's no practical reason to invest in Bitcoin if you aren't interested in decentralization.

But the investors who don't care about decentralization are probably responsible for 95% of Bitcoin's market cap.

In other words, if there were no central brokerages and all investors of Bitcoin were forced to mess around with private keys, keeping those keys on their physical person, then only a tiny few would invest, and almost nobody would want to invest anything significant lest their life savings end up in a landfill. Unless we're talking about the cash in your wallet, most people want to keep their holdings in their name.

So yes, the fact that most people don't use Bitcoin in the way Bitcoin was intended surely affects everybody's use of Bitcoin since those people make it a wildly appreciating asset and not just a curiosity for a few tech folks like us.

And seriously, in real life, do people here actually use Bitcoin for their daily transactions? Do they put their entire life savings into Bitcoin? (God I hope not lest it lose 75% of its value again like it did only 18 months ago).

btc78

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Eloncoin.org - Mars, here we come!

I think the purpose of bitcoin was mainly so we do not need to go through third parties just to make transactions. With the rise of centralized exchanges these days, I think it is just natural and part of innovation and development. Even though not exactly the actual purpose of bitcoin, we can not stop or prevent people from using centralized exchanges for whatever reason.
Rather I would like to see bitcoin to be used for everyday transactions. Now proves that to be quite impossible. With the high transaction fees and most people wanting to hold. I do understand it because I really do see bitcoin as a valuable investment but it makes me wonder until when it would be?

Ale88

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Quote from: Mate2237 on February 28, 2024, 06:26:17 PM

Though I might be wrong on this but I think the main or the core reason of creating bitcoin was to use it to trade p2p which is to buy goods and services online but that part or function of bitcoin creation is not working perfectly yet and I don't know if it will work in the nearest future.

You are talking about mass adoption, I'm not sure if Satoshi (or someone else) ever made like a diagram of all bitcoin's theoretical step but I'm pretty sure that mass adoption would be the last step, or one of the very last. Let's not forget that it's been created only 15 years ago and the achievements that it reached are pretty insane. I'm pretty happy with all the goals we've already reached, let's see what happens in the next 5 years now.

YUriy1991

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Quote from: we-btc on February 29, 2024, 01:43:00 PM

Great points. Banks have adopted it for the express purpose of controlling it within the current financial paradigm. If Bitcoin is not used as a currency then its value is simply to provide a tool to banks and centralized financial institutions to siphon off some of each persons value.

Of course OP, if the adoption of Bitcoin is forced by the banking sector, of course the value of this enthusiasm will fade and conflict with basic principles because like it or not, all customers are required to have strict KYC identification and of course the bank will also provide special services for those who are already well established. finances in this area of course. As we currently see, those who have a lot of large assets always get a special route when withdrawing fiat at a bank.

Even if they try to integrate Bitcoin into their operations, I think it will take time to balance and address the unique aspects of cryptocurrencies such as scalability, transaction speed, and security in their operations.

Bananington

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Quote from: blckhawk on February 29, 2024, 06:36:47 PM

Quote from: dunfida on February 29, 2024, 12:18:36 PM

Quote from: blckhawk on February 29, 2024, 11:17:42 AM

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If you are really that someone who do able to read up that Bitcoin whitepaper on the time that you did step your foot into this space then you wont really be able to say up such things on which it is really just that something that cant be just right on having that kind of approach on which telling that Bitcoins existence or purpose was really that for the purpose of providing financial freedom. Well, it could potentially be able to make someones life to be changed up in terms of investment side of things but we know that not all would really be that lucky enough on making themselves that financially freed. It would be also still mattering on how well you do make out
such decisions because not all crypto investors do really ends up on successful.

Once you do able to check out the WP then you would really be able to understand on what it is all about. Its not something that do talk about financial freedom
but rather this is something that do talks about anonymous p2p transaction or simply just that talks about decentralization.

That's why I said that it wasn't created for that, if you actually read my post, I've talked about the financial freedom part in a sense that it's the people are the ones that have thought it's what bitcoin gives them and not the other way around. You're asking what way could it give financial freedom, are you new to bitcoin or something like that? Because I think the fact that there's no middleman between transactions is a freedom in of itself so what are you talking about? That it's not written in the whitepaper? Sure it's not but that's besides the point don't you think? Anonymity is the same as being free right?

I would dare say that most government in many countries these days have opted to somehow control crypto currency like BTC, since it wasn't created by them or have any reserve banks or gold reserve backing it up.
They have done this by regulating and taxing anyone or exchanges who use a currency like Bitcoin because of the financial freedom it has indeed granted the citizens.

Still, it doesn't change the idea that Bitcoin was created to provide much more than privacy and freedom to complete financial transactions across borders with as little fees as compared to what regular banks would offer. It has also proven to be a good store of value overtime and currently it is every potential investors dream of acquiring.

blckhawk

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Quote from: dunfida on February 29, 2024, 12:18:36 PM

Quote from: blckhawk on February 29, 2024, 11:17:42 AM

~

If you are really that someone who do able to read up that Bitcoin whitepaper on the time that you did step your foot into this space then you wont really be able to say up such things on which it is really just that something that cant be just right on having that kind of approach on which telling that Bitcoins existence or purpose was really that for the purpose of providing financial freedom. Well, it could potentially be able to make someones life to be changed up in terms of investment side of things but we know that not all would really be that lucky enough on making themselves that financially freed. It would be also still mattering on how well you do make out
such decisions because not all crypto investors do really ends up on successful.

Once you do able to check out the WP then you would really be able to understand on what it is all about. Its not something that do talk about financial freedom
but rather this is something that do talks about anonymous p2p transaction or simply just that talks about decentralization.

That's why I said that it wasn't created for that, if you actually read my post, I've talked about the financial freedom part in a sense that it's the people are the ones that have thought it's what bitcoin gives them and not the other way around. You're asking what way could it give financial freedom, are you new to bitcoin or something like that? Because I think the fact that there's no middleman between transactions is a freedom in of itself so what are you talking about? That it's not written in the whitepaper? Sure it's not but that's besides the point don't you think? Anonymity is the same as being free right?

we-btc

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Personal financial freedom and sovereignty

Quote from: Mrbluntzy on February 29, 2024, 05:39:57 PM

Quote from: we-btc on February 28, 2024, 04:39:37 PM

Fast forward 16 years and almost all Bitcoin transactions are run through third parties. To buy Bitcoin most people use exchanges which you must KYC on. To store Bitcoin most people use wallets that require the use of 3rd party nodes for transactions.

Bitcoin transactions may be running through third parties exchange or wallets but most of those centralized exchange have also made it easy for fast accumulation of Bitcoin in some part of the world like in my country. It have helped some people to even buy Bitcoin more faster. I don't know how to express everything I wanted to say but in a short word my country people are using centralized exchange to buy their Bitcoin and they are more familiar with its use. Most of those exchange have aid a wide adoption of Bitcoin. How many non third party exchange do you recommend for use and how popular are they?

The issue I am trying to shine a light on is that transactions with a 3rd party intermediary defeat the purpose of Bitcoin being a peer-to-peer network. If centralized exchanges provide easier access to Bitcoin that is great but if you want Bitcoin to provide the decentralized freedom it was designed to facilitate then you have to use your own node. Will people transition away from these centralized 3 party transactions after their initial purchases? Only if they understand why this is important. It is important to understand that it is not in the best interest of the 3rd party to promote peer-to-peer transactions.

All 3rd parties, whether it is a wallet, exchange or bank will attempt to keep their customers using their service. This propaganda is what is driving adoption of these trust based bitcoin transactions.

Rabata

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I think P2P use-case is interrupted is because of the government's hostile attitude towards Bitcoin. Although some governments are taking a positive view towards it. However, this barrier must be overcome in extreme circumstances. Since governments have tried hard to reduce people's interest in Bitcoin, they will never be able to suppress the potential of Bitcoin by law. In fact, this is the reason why P2P is still not widely used in all place of the world. However, Bitcoin has already made a significant place in the world as a tool of trading. But now, even though there are various disagreements about it in some places, gradually everyone will come under Bitcoin. Bitcoin payment method is already being used in many purposes and its use is increasing tremendously.

bitzizzix

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In my opinion, Bitcoin was created to take control of power away from banks and other financial entities, and aims to return it to people who can use it with the freedom they can control themselves.
And to have a decentralized currency that is accepted throughout the world without third party interference, quickly, safely and conveniently and transparently. And everything turned out so perfect. The payment process, sending and receiving payments will be very easy and no other party can prevent it, and it can also change someone's life to be better than before in financial terms if done wisely.

BlackHatCoiner

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Farewell, Leo

Quote from: legiteum on February 29, 2024, 02:04:11 PM

It is now used mainly as an investment instrument, using mostly centralized brokerages, which are contrary to its original goal, but the original intent of Bitcoin was to create a system out of the reach of any government.

I must have misinterpreted "oversight" then. I thought you said that the goal of Bitcoin was to create untraceable (from the government) transactions, to evade taxes mostly.

Sure. The original intent was to detach money from the state. In fact, given that Satoshi was a bit of an anarchist, and there were a lot of crypto-anarchists around that niche at that time, I believe he was profoundly with that philosophy in mind.

Quote from: legiteum on February 29, 2024, 02:04:11 PM

For probably 99% of Bitcoin users this goal has failed since they use a brokerage and/or they don't use a mixer to hide their transactions--making them easily tracked by central governments.

But, has it really failed if these people choose to forfeit custody? I mean, if you personally don't care about self-custody, does that alter Bitcoin's goal or my interaction with Bitcoin? Bitcoin is all about freedom of choice in the end. It allows you to mistreat it.

Topic: Bitcoin was created to reform money and provide financial freedom - page 6. (Read 1546 times)