Topic: Bitcoin Was Perfect...............And Then Came The Utopians! - page 2. (Read 4667 times)

The point is this: to enforce socialism you need to have men with guns willing to use them.  This is NOT freedom.

Even a child knows violence and threat of violence is wrong.

Yet many adults think it is OK to FORCE me participate in socialist ideals.  It is not and never will be.

Socialism sucks.  It is evil and against all principles of a free society.  You do not threaten violence EVER.  The non-aggression principle trumps your ideas of equality every time.

For many people immersed in public education and, dare I say, propaganda, this is new information.  It can be difficult to digest.  But once you "get it" you "get it".  Then you understand and you can never go back to thinking your old and incorrect thoughts.

Capitalism = Freedom
Socialism always always always leads to tyranny.

I'm unclear on what alternative you're proposing. Bitcoin is a medium of exchange, nothing more. If you want an esoteric, largely unknown (and therefore unused) cryptocurrency there are dozens to choose from, or you can start your own and share it with whomever you wish. However, I suggest that an unknown currency is largely useless, and for obvious reasons.

Bitcoin is not Mt. Gox, or the "Utopians" (which prompts an entirely different argument about how entire economic systems are now misunderstood through sweeping quasi-spiritual dogma, but I digress), or anyone else. As a medium, it lends itself to all sorts of intermediate uses that you can take or leave (or ignore) as you choose. In short, I don't see a defined problem described, only a good deal of unfocused sentiment.

Well, Comrade, that is certainly a new twist on the accepted definition of the term; one I have seen only in socialist and leftist literature and occasionally shouted from soapboxes in the park, much to the annoyance of passersby.

I would suggest that the following definition of the term is much more accurate and to the point:

"Definition of 'Capitalism'

An economic system based on a free market, open competition, profit motive and private ownership of the means of production. Capitalism encourages private investment and business, compared to a government-controlled economy. Investors in these private companies (i.e. shareholders) also own the firms and are known as capitalists.
    
In such a system, individuals and firms have the right to own and use wealth to earn income and to sell and purchase labor for wages with little or no government control. The function of regulating the economy is then achieved mainly through the operation of market forces where prices and profit dictate where and how resources are used and allocated. The U.S. is a capitalistic system."

http://www.investopedia.com/terms/c/capitalism.asp

My $.02.

I'm sick and tired of people talking about how great Capitalism is when you don't have a clue what it IS.

Capitalism is an economic system based on borrowing money from BANKS at INTEREST to finance investment activity, and more recently consumer spending.  THAT IS ALL

It is NOT Entrepreneurship
It is NOT Free-Markets
It is NOT Industrialism

Yes in America we have all four and people have mashed all of them together in their minds into a kind of Monolith which is above reproach.  But if you dice it out, you'll see that the benefits have all come from the latter Three causes, while Capitalism has essentially been a parasitic activity siphoning off some of the wealth production from the others.

Then Satoshi came along and said fuck this, I'll do it.

Bitcoin is whatever you want it to be... i'm sure someone will figure their way out of this mining centralization... if only all those ASIC chips could stop mysteriously being delayed. I'm sure there is someone out there able to capitalize on this... for the greater good, it is demanded.

Please show us such "documentation".

Thanks in advance.

OP is engaging in revisionist history.  Documented facts clearly show that those pushing for regulations were not utopians, but pragmatists who were drawn to Bitcoin for technical and financial reasons.

Fair enough, even though it sounds a bit like communism.
If I wan't to work 14 hours a day when everyone else is working 8, I will do so. And I won't ask for permission  

I think your view of capitalism is based on the few rather than the many and the way things really work..


Here is an example of TRUE capitalism!:

http://manfrommodesto.hubpages.com/hub/Lincoln-Electric-Case-Study

My $.02.

Bitcoin was doomed the moment it tried to be free from government control.  Simply because government is not and has never been the problem.  Government is a dependent tool of the broader financial system.  A victim, just like the people, of this oppressive, debt-based monetary system controlled by the capital holders.  I agree that a non-debt based currency is necessary to break this grip but this MUST include government because it is government that can prevent banks from reassuming power.   It's banks that need to be excluded and as long as political rhetoric  (Democrat, Republican, Libertarian) fuels continued separation of the people along these lines, the handlers of this system will maintain power and we will all likely suffer for it.  

What did I miss?
I'm not hard to convince these days...


edit:
I should say that I did agree with your post, I just can't divorce me from the idea that capitalism as we know it is directly involved in the making of the current delusion we call democracy

You have no idea what true capitalism is.

My $.02.

Phoenix, Arizona checking in.

100% agreed on that point but try telling the so-called "liberals" that!

My $.02.

There's simply no pleasing some folk is there ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2ku1A5Ox8U

... Everybody, Somebody, Anybody and Nobody
     
This is a story about four people named Everybody, Somebody, Anybody, and Nobody.

There was an important job to be done and Everybody was sure that Somebody would do it.

Anybody could have done it, but Nobody did it.

Somebody got angry about that because it was Everybody's job.

Everybody thought that Anybody could do it, but Nobody realized that Everybody wouldn't do it.

It ended up that Everybody blamed Somebody when Nobody did what Anybody could have done.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A7TuFy0fcuw

Maybe I'm the only one here but why would you want capitalism?

A bunch of suits sitting in their chesterfields buying and selling companies they have never seen, except as a number in some excel sheet?

Fuck that. Call it a free market and I'm in

But... the whole idea is that everyone gets a fair chance. And continues to do so.

If not, we might as well stick with the crony capitalism we already have.

If indeed you mean true capitalism, as opposed to crony capitalism, please start calling it a free market.
It think that will cause less confusion in a multinational forum

+1

if Bitcoin taught me one single thing, it´s for sure the huge advantages early adopters have (also like your pyramid scheme analogy).
This is especially apparent in the various altcoins where everyone tries to recruit new users in order to expand the pyramid.

(and of course the last ones who invest in the pyramid scheme are screwed and left with holding the bag)

BTC has been functioning as a pyramid scheme for a long time now, earlier adopters see deflationary profits when new people join.  That means their is a massive across the board incentive to expand the pyramid, everyone in BTC knows this and has known it for ages.   When that desired expansion runs up against the rules of the current financial system anyone with a brain can see that conformity to rules is more conducive to continued growth then flouting the rules.  This is why every 'high-roller' is on the side of obeying the law and ditching the under-ground nature of BTC, you silly anarchists and libertarians have served your purpose and are now just being bypassed.

This is not an accident, it is the inevitable result of the design of BTC, if your a cryto-anarchist hacktivist libertarian types your role has been to fuel the middle phase of a pyramid scheme, but like all such schemes it expands by it's own necessity.  Thus all your cherished ideals are to be crushed by the monster YOU helped create.  The only way a crypto-currency can true to any kind of ideals is if greed is not a factor and for that to happen you can't have this kind of deflationary pyramid scheme, a currency would need to EXPAND in step with it's adoption and maintain stable value, aka it would need to NOT be a pyramid scheme, as soon you people accepted deflation you had effectively SOLD OUT any ideals you might have had.

Socialism right from the get-go is evil.  Why?  Because it can exist only by the threat of force - follow these rules, give up a percentage of your earnings...OR ELSE WE WILL COME LOOKING FOR YOU.  Resist and you go to jail.  Resist further and we will kill you.  There is an unspoken gun in the room, always present, always menacing.

You say you want socialism because of the evils of capitalism.  Yet you want socialism forced on everyone at the point of a gun.  This immediately negates any discussion.  Socialism is violent by definition because it is forced upon those who may not want it.

I'll take capitalism any day.  Capitalism is not evil.  Capitalism lets the market decide.  You do not have to force capitalism upon the people at the point of a gun.  Capitalism just happens, it is peace.  It is industry.  It is Bitcoin.